Spartanburg, SC Sheriff to women...ARM YOURSELVES...

[OneLove]

I think it's more likely that they would have gotten the gun away from him robbed him, raped him and then killed him with his own gun. JMO

--- again, inexperienced and unprepared, yes, I agree. But I bet he would have rather had the opportunity to at least TRY to protect his life.



BBM

I don't recall ever reading about a carjacking that involved a car between two others. A criminal needs a fast getaway. Just step on the gas.

- - Go back and reread the story. Stopped at a light in traffic, car in front of, cars behind. "Just step on the gas" is probably an offensive retort to a person who clearly did not have that option and whose life was under attack at the moment. It sounds an awful lot like "let them eat cake".



If everybody had the experience and training your husband has I might have a different opinion. However, it seems that almost every gun owner thinks they are a much better shot than they are.

- - And how is it that you happen to know "almost every gun owner" along with their individual target practice scores AND each one's personal opinion of how well they shoot? That seems , well, overstepping, by just a wee bit. My professional background would lead me to ask questions about how you arrived at this obvious bias. Any real life experiences you would like to talk about?

JMO

Scratching my head at this one.

 

[tiredblondy]

Actually, in the first instance it sounds like you would have had a much better chance at being protected AND could have assisted LE in capturing a perpetrator if you had called 911. In the second instance, it doesn't matter that there was a car in front of you, you press the gas anyway. The guy wouldn't have been able to keep his balance or been able to persist in trying to get into your car. You could've gone forward, jumped out the passenger side and thrown your keys. This is just as plausible of a scenario as you having been able to locate your gun and use it before he would've just grabbed it out of your hands.

And why on earth would you not travel to see your daughter without bringing a gun? In a million years it never would have crossed my mind when making travel plans that I had to include arming myself on my itinerary???? I know I sound incredulous, but reading some of these posts I truly feel like I'm living in some kind of alternate universe....I know no one who lives in such fear that they feel they should be carrying a deadly weapon.

BBM-If I had called 911???????


I did NOT have a phone ! not even a land line! How could I have called 911?
This was in the early 70's! 911 was not even nationwide till At&t started it with their Bell systems in the late 1960's! AND I didn't have a cell phone until 1999!


This is exactly what happens when one assumes too much!


In reference to the second instance. One can predict all kinds of things they'd do in situations but until you're there don't offer advice please.


If I'd stepped on the gas as was suggested I'd have plowed into a car full of children and a mother/woman. I did have my mind about me to realize that. Maybe someone else would have taken that chance and maybe killed a child but I wasn't.


And no he wouldn't have grabbed it out of my hands because I'd have pulled the trigger immediately and it isn't a long gun. Fits right in my hand. I was trained by my Dad and Grandfather before taking other classes. The one thing they told me was if I ever felt my life was in danger don't hesitate.I am well aware of these things.


As far as jumping out there was a car beside me, remember? This was a narrow street (they have since reduced it from a three lane to a two lane for that very reason) and there was not room to open the door wide enough to jump out. It was also a '64 Mustang and of course was a straight drive. If I'd taken my foot off the clutch the car would have died and I'd have no chance of going anywhere.


I guess a can of mace would have been effective if I could have been sure to hit his face but I can't remember was mace around back then. Let's see,mace became available in the early 90's
so since this happened in the 70's guess that wasn't possible.


I'm not stupid and I did what I had to do. If I'd had the gun it'd have been right in my purse which I keep beside me on the seat. I'd have raised the purse and shot through it. I've gone over this a hundred times.

I'm 60 now and this happened when I was young,natural blonde & beautiful in my 20's. LOL

I know what happened and I was there. If one wasn't there don't give me advice or judge me.

I have gone on several long trips and I check in a motel about 4 and eat and then retire for the night. I look under my car and in the back seat before getting in. I am very aware of my surroundings especially at the atm's. I'm not careless just safe. I don't want to be one of the topics here someday because of carelessness.


Did I say I lived in fear?????? I don't think so.


I could tell about an incident that happened to me when I was at a car wash alone or I thought I was alone. I sensed danger and jumped in the car, locked the door and did step on the gas then and escaped a huge man that was getting a little close to ask for a quarter, a strange look in his eye, something told me to flee. A month later he was arrested for rape. Thank the good Lord above I listened to instinct and a wise Daddy who taught me to never park anywhere that had only one way out.


Sorry I don't live in fear but I sure don't want to end up like many of the women in the crime section here. I want to know I have a chance of leveling the playing field. I was even more aware of this when the kids were young and we lived in a remote setting.


I'm basing my beliefs on my past experiences and what adds to my sense of security. I am talking about me only. I thank God for my father who taught me to be observant, vigilant and cautious.


Do not judge me till having the experiences I had.

 

[Reality Orlando]

I think it's more likely that they would have gotten the gun away from him robbed him, raped him and then killed him with his own gun. JMO



BBM

I don't recall ever reading about a carjacking that involved a car between two others. A criminal needs a fast getaway. Just step on the gas.



If everybody had the experience and training your husband has I might have a different opinion. However, it seems that almost every gun owner thinks they are a much better shot than they are. JMO

Just to be fair...have you spent any time with folks with their concealed weapons permit? Have you even spent much time at the range? Do you know that the first and most important rule regarding pulling a gun is to know your surroundings and what's behind your target? Here are the basic rules taught in concealed carry classes for those of you who haven't taken the course:

Four Rules of Gun Safety

-Always regard and handle any firearm as though it is loaded, at all times.

-Always keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you have made the decision to shoot.

-Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.

-Always be sure of your target and what is beyond.

Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry

-Your concealed handgun is for protection of life only.

-Draw it solely in preparation to save a life from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.

-Know exactly when you can use your gun.

-A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

1) ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon; you face multiple unarmed attackers; an unarmed attacker has an obvious, substantial advantage in physical ability and/or skill),

2) opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to immediately harm you), and

3) intent (hostile actions and/or words) that indicates he means to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that may justify an emergency deadly force response.

If you can run away -- RUN!

Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your situation awareness skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort.

 

[defense101]

This shows that the threat is also likely to be in your own home, IMO the mayors comments only serve to escalate the fear that women on the street already feel.

In 2000, in homicides where the weapon was known, 50 percent (1,342 of 2,701) of female homicide victims were killed with a firearm. Of those female firearm homicides, 1,009 women (75 percent) were killed with a handgun.

More than five times as many women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance (605) than by a stranger (113) in the year 2000

An analysis of female domestic homicides (a woman murdered by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative) showed that prior domestic violence in the household made a woman 14.6 times more likely, and having one or more guns in the home made a woman 7.2 times more likely, to be the victim of such a homicide.


http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm

 

[tiredblondy]

Scratching my head at this one.

Thank you so much OneLove. :blowkiss:If you read my answer I just posted you see that everything that was suggested was impossible.

I couldn't call 911 not only because I didn't have a phone (which is incomprehensible today) but because it was in 1972 and I'm not sure 911 had been incorporated at that time. Needless to say I moved out as soon as I could find somewhere and had a few more paychecks. In the meantime I went back home and slept.

But I like your reasoning. In the second instance-

He was trying to get in the passenger side of my car. There was a car beside me on the driver's side, one in front of me with kids and the guys in the back.

Also in 1973 I don't think car jackings were occuring very much.

As the police told me very bluntly- Young lady you are very lucky and owe your life to those two guys because this guy wanted you! He probably had a knife and was going to force you to drive somewhere, rape and then kill you! We might have found you and we might not have.

They said he planned it exactly as it happened. A situation where a single female was hemmed in by other cars and could do nothing. My having the doors locked was an unexpected.

Talk about chilling words. I think that probably made me aware of my safety more so. At that point I was sobbing and the police really made an impression on me.

Thank you for your support again.:seeya:

 

[tiredblondy]

I think it's more likely that they would have gotten the gun away from him robbed him, raped him and then killed him with his own gun. JMO

BBM

I don't recall ever reading about a carjacking that involved a car between two others. A criminal needs a fast getaway. Just step on the gas.


If everybody had the experience and training your husband has I might have a different opinion. However, it seems that almost every gun owner thinks they are a much better shot than they are. JMO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I don't recall ever reading about a carjacking that involved a car between two others. A criminal needs a fast getaway. Just step on the gas].

Steely please read my two posts above It was not a car jacking.


As the police told me very bluntly- Young lady you are very lucky and owe your life to those two guys because this guy wanted you! He probably had a knife and was going to force you to drive somewhere, rape and then kill you! We might have found you and we might not have.

They said he planned it exactly as it happened. A situation where a single female was hemmed in by other cars and could do nothing. My having the doors locked was an unexpected. The two men jumping out of that truck and wrestling him away were two angels as far as I'm concerned.

 

[tiredblondy]

Just to be fair...have you spent any time with folks with their concealed weapons permit? Have you even spent much time at the range? Do you know that the first and most important rule regarding pulling a gun is to know your surroundings and what's behind your target? Here are the basic rules taught in concealed carry classes for those of you who haven't taken the course:

Four Rules of Gun Safety

-Always regard and handle any firearm as though it is loaded, at all times.

-Always keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you have made the decision to shoot.

-Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.

-Always be sure of your target and what is beyond.

Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry

-Your concealed handgun is for protection of life only.

-Draw it solely in preparation to save a life from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.

-Know exactly when you can use your gun.

-A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

1) ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon; you face multiple unarmed attackers; an unarmed attacker has an obvious, substantial advantage in physical ability and/or skill),

2) opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to immediately harm you), and

3) intent (hostile actions and/or words) that indicates he means to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that may justify an emergency deadly force response.

If you can run away -- RUN!

Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your situation awareness skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort.

Amen I second all of that but especially the underlined part.

An to One Love I'm so sorry you were at the other end of a gun and your experiece. I can only imagine the feelings of helplessness and fear.

It is so easy to say what one should do but until one experiences it they never can imagine.

I have thought about a taser but that scares me more than a gun because that could easily get taken away and used on me. You have to get close enough to the subject for contact. Naw I'm keeping my mode of protection that I'm sure of.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their mind. I'm simply stating why I feel the way I do.

 

[OneLove]

Thank you so much OneLove. :blowkiss:If you read my answer I just posted you see that everything that was suggested was impossible.

I couldn't call 911 not only because I didn't have a phone (which is incomprehensible today) but because it was in 1972 and I'm not sure 911 had been incorporated at that time. Needless to say I moved out as soon as I could find somewhere and had a few more paychecks. In the meantime I went back home and slept.

But I like your reasoning. In the second instance-

He was trying to get in the passenger side of my car. There was a car beside me on the driver's side, one in front of me with kids and the guys in the back.

Also in 1973 I don't think car jackings were occuring very much.

As the police told me very bluntly- Young lady you are very lucky and owe your life to those two guys because this guy wanted you! He probably had a knife and was going to force you to drive somewhere, rape and then kill you! We might have found you and we might not have.

They said he planned it exactly as it happened. A situation where a single female was hemmed in by other cars and could do nothing. My having the doors locked was an unexpected.

Talk about chilling words. I think that probably made me aware of my safety more so. At that point I was sobbing and the police really made an impression on me.

Thank you for your support again.:seeya:

Wow, I am soooo glad you were ok. What a scary incident and very close call. I guess if there were to be anything good come of that, it is that it raised your awareness level when you were young enough to benefit from it for years to come.

Sometimes I try to go back in my mind and remember what it was like to be naive and ignorant of the reality of such possibilities. Life was so much more carefree and fun, and I have truly mourned the loss of that youthful innocence for many years now. But precisely because of my reluctant awareness, I have been vigilant about safety and security and saved myself a number of times.

I wonder if the people who are in denial about the current state of rampant violent crime are so resistant to the reality BECAUSE they don't want to give up that sense of carefree naiveté. I could understand that so much more easily than if they have been duped into believing they are more in danger from licensed carriers than violent criminals.

I posted earlier about my neighbor, but I don't see it, so maybe it didn't post right. My neighbor several houses down (in what is considered an upscale and crime free neighborhood) was at home alone several nights ago with her 2 year old daughter. She had an intruder try to enter her home from the front door, back door, and her daughter's bedroom window. She was terrified and called 911 immediately and her father.

It took LE 2 hours to get there, her father less than 5 minutes. When LE ran a check on his car plates they found he was a pedophile repeat offender. He claimed her dog took his shoe and he was only looking for his shoe. LE later told her the shoe trick was his standard method of operation. Her father ran him off before LE arrived, but LE say they could not arrest him anyway because he had not YET committed a crime. They would have only arrested him AFTER he broke into her house. Of course by then, she would likely not be alive to tell the story.

So if my neighbor had been murdered and her daughter abducted, this man, in court, could have used his shoe to explain his DNA being anywhere in her house or on her property. Even the presence of BLOOD could be explained as accidental while looking for his shoe. With her dead and not available to testify, he could even explain his blood in HER house as his being INVITED in while she looked for his shoe inside. I can see defense attorneys making a strong case of reasonable doubt.

So now we have increased patrols and a strong neighborhood watch program started. Many of us already were well prepared to defend ourselves from home invasion, but bless this young mother who has only just learned in a very traumatic way the R E A L I T Y of life as it is. Her father has her in licensed concealed carry classes now.

The deeply disturbing thing is knowing there are people who actually believe she would be a menace to society once she is capable of defending herself and her child from violent home invasion and therefore should not have the RIGHT to do so, while criminals will ALWAYS have illegal arms no matter what the laws are. I just cannot fathom the sheer depth of lack of empathy and breadth of denial.

Anyway, so glad you survived. Hope your life has been a wonderful journey since.

 

[Steely Dan]

Scratching my head at this one.

I have no idea about how that got there either? :waitasec:

Just to be fair...have you spent any time with folks with their concealed weapons permit? Have you even spent much time at the range? Do you know that the first and most important rule regarding pulling a gun is to know your surroundings and what's behind your target? Here are the basic rules taught in concealed carry classes for those of you who haven't taken the course:

Four Rules of Gun Safety

-Always regard and handle any firearm as though it is loaded, at all times.

-Always keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you have made the decision to shoot.

-Always point the muzzle in a safe direction.

-Always be sure of your target and what is beyond.

Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry

-Your concealed handgun is for protection of life only.

-Draw it solely in preparation to save a life from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.

-Know exactly when you can use your gun.

-A criminal adversary must have, or reasonably appear to have:

1) ability to inflict serious bodily injury (he is armed or reasonably appears to be armed with a deadly weapon; you face multiple unarmed attackers; an unarmed attacker has an obvious, substantial advantage in physical ability and/or skill),

2) opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm (he is physically positioned to immediately harm you), and

3) intent (hostile actions and/or words) that indicates he means to do you serious or fatal physical harm.

When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that may justify an emergency deadly force response.

If you can run away -- RUN!

Just because you’re armed doesn’t necessarily mean you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your situation awareness skills so you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble altogether. Flee if you can, fight only as a last resort.

Those rules are great but we have rules for speeding, running red lights, jaywalking, and a multitude of other rules that people just ignore or don't care about. If everybody followed the rules you posted there wouldn't be any killings with your own gun, but there are a lot of them.

Everybody lets their guard down after awhile. When your home is robbed (Mine was when I was a teenager) it scares the hell out of you and you become extra vigilant in everything you do, for awhile. Then you just get lazy again do things slovenly like you used to before. The guy who robbed our house got in by breaking glass while my family was at a friends house for dinner. He ransacked the place. The cops said it was one of the most thorough jobs they'd ever seen. We were gone for about 5 hours and sunset was early that time of year.

A gun wouldn't have helped us. It would have helped him. Along with the silverware and other things he stole he would have taken the gun too. If my father had a large gun collection then a lot of guns would have been in criminals hands.

I don't want to single these posters out because I'm sure a lot of people have done this, but somebody posted about their grandfather putting the gun under his pillow rather than locking it away. I'm positive he had no idea the kids would find it but he broke the rules you've posted above didn't he? He just got lazy and didn't lock the gun away. He put it under the pillow and thought he'd lock it away later.

Another poster related a story of how her sister got shot accidentally. That gun owner wasn't following those rules either. To think that everyone follows those rules all of the time is very naive. JMO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I don't recall ever reading about a carjacking that involved a car between two others. A criminal needs a fast getaway. Just step on the gas].

Steely please read my two posts above It was not a car jacking.


As the police told me very bluntly- Young lady you are very lucky and owe your life to those two guys because this guy wanted you! He probably had a knife and was going to force you to drive somewhere, rape and then kill you! We might have found you and we might not have.

They said he planned it exactly as it happened. A situation where a single female was hemmed in by other cars and could do nothing. My having the doors locked was an unexpected. The two men jumping out of that truck and wrestling him away were two angels as far as I'm concerned.

I understand. I was responding to the bolded part of another poster. I guess we'd have to agree to disagree about whether or not the gun could've been taken away from you or not but there are other things you could do. If someone ever got into my car I'd start driving fast and out of control. I would tell him that I was thinking of committing suicide and he gave me the perfect excuse so people wouldn't think I did commit suicide. I might reach over and turn off the passenger air bag and ram a tree. I might drive like a maniac to the nearest police station and ram the car into the wall.

If he points the gun and tells me to move over then I'd run out the side door. Those are less dangerous, taking traffic into account, than having a gun he could grab. JMO

This is a general statement to those who've said the 70 year old could have shot these kids. Here are some things to consider.

Did he see them coming or did they grab him from behind? If they grabbed him from behind his gun is only going to make things worse for him when they find it. If he saw them coming then when should he have pulled the gun. What if they were just kids with no intent to do harm and he pulled the gun and shot a kid? I have a feeling by the time he knew he was in trouble it would have been too late to pull the gun. JMO

There are good reasons to own a gun but the vast majority of us don't need one. I've seen stories on true crime shows where women have said they woke up with a pillow over their heads and a guy on top of them. How would a gun have helped then? If you want a gun then fine get one, but just don't let it get pointed in my face because you didn't think something like a burglar taking it would happen. JMO

 

[Steely Dan]

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ncreases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html

Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed
15:26 06 October 2009 by Ewen Callaway
For similar stories, visit the US national issues Topic Guide

...Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher....

ETA: I found in some pro gun articles the 4.2 times as likely was changed to 43 times as likely. Making it a much easier argument to disprove. Figures don't lie but liars can figure.

http://med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

Gun Safety for Kids and Youth
What are the statistics about young people and firearm deaths and injuries?

The 2002 edition of Injury Facts from the National Safety Council reports the following statistics [1] :

In 1999, 3,385 children and youth ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:Four teen boys
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention
Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old


http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/04/guns-in-the-home-lots-of-risk-ambiguity.ars

Guns at home more likely to be used stupidly than in self-defense

...Summing matters up, Hemenway notes that a number of surveys have found that a gun kept at home is far more likely to be used in violence, an accident, or a suicide attempt than self defense. (He also goes off on a long diversion about how a poorly trained gun owner is unlikely to use one well even when self defense is involved.) As a result, from a public health perspective, there's little doubt that a gun at home is generally a negative risk factor.

And, from the author's perspective, that's probably inevitable. "Regular citizens with guns, who are sometimes tired, angry, drunk, or afraid, and who are not trained in dispute resolution, have lots of opportunities for inappropriate gun use," he wrote. "People engage in innumerable annoying and somewhat hostile interactions with each other in the course of a lifetime." In contrast, the opportunities to use guns in a context where the user isn't any of the above are probably always going to be rare. ...

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/08/pennsylvania-woman-shot-to-death-at-gun-shop/
By John Timmer | Published 6 months ago

Pennsylvania woman shot to death at gun shop
Posted on 08.22.11
By David Edwards
Categories: Culture, Featured

A 61-year-old Pennsylvania woman was shot and killed while trying to buy a gun at Miller’s Munitions Gun Shop in Huntington Township Sunday.

The man holding the gun that went off was the woman’s husband, according to CBS 21. The woman was struck in the abdomen.

State Police investigating the incident have declined to say if it was an accident or intentional.

Watch this video from Fox 43, broadcast Aug 21, 2011....

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/gunviolence/factswomen

PROBLEM: Firearms present a public health threat to American women, in particular from suicide and domestic violence....

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/01/will_your_gun_help_you_in_the.php

Will your gun help you in the case of a home invasion?

Category: Gun Ownership
Posted on: January 5, 2011 10:00 AM, by Greg Laden

Statistics and various studies show that yes, it might, but they also show that having a gun in the home is also potentially very dangerous, so the net aggregate outcome (and economists have strong armed us into thinking that net aggregate outcomes are the only criteria that are acceptable, bless their pointy heads) of having a gun in the home is that someone in your home is more likely to be shot and possibly killed than that the gun will be used to thwart a home invasion.

But enough about facts, let's look at two very current anecdotal cases and argue about them for a while: ...

http://www.livescience.com/3104-man-accidentally-shoots-wife-sex.html

Article:
Man Accidentally Shoots Wife During Sex
Robert Roy Britt
Date: 04 December 2008 Time: 06:05 AM ET

A 38-year-old man in Springfield, Ohio, told police he was reaching for something on the nightstand during sex when his pistol went off and shot his estranged wife in the chest, according to a local news report. Timothy Havens previously served 60 days in jail for assaulting Carolyn Havens, 42, who is now in the hospital.

The shooting comes just a handful of days after NFL player Plaxico Burress accidentally shot himself in the thigh in a Manhattan nightclub.

While the Burress incident made big headlines, Carolyn Havens' tragedy is a far more common affair in this country where people shoot themselves or other family members far more frequently than many realize. A quick scan of headlines just this week finds:

4-year-old accidentally shot and killed by relative
17-year-old accidentally shot by younger brother
Boy, 15, accidentally shot while deer hunting
Dropped pistol discharges, wounds owner

The standard argument for keeping guns in the home is that they keep you safe, of course. The National Rifle Association trains about 750,000 gun owners a year. NRA courses teach proper handling and storage of firearms. Yet far more people who own guns — including many who see the guns as useful for self defense — never get such training....




Just think about how stupid the average American is and then realize that half of them are stupider than that - George Carlin

 

[Reality Orlando]

Actually, in the first instance it sounds like you would have had a much better chance at being protected AND could have assisted LE in capturing a perpetrator if you had called 911. In the second instance, it doesn't matter that there was a car in front of you, you press the gas anyway. The guy wouldn't have been able to keep his balance or been able to persist in trying to get into your car. You could've gone forward, jumped out the passenger side and thrown your keys. This is just as plausible of a scenario as you having been able to locate your gun and use it before he would've just grabbed it out of your hands.

And why on earth would you not travel to see your daughter without bringing a gun? In a million years it never would have crossed my mind when making travel plans that I had to include arming myself on my itinerary???? I know I sound incredulous, but reading some of these posts I truly feel like I'm living in some kind of alternate universe....I know no one who lives in such fear that they feel they should be carrying a deadly weapon.

If only this family had been armed these poor girls wouldn't have been brutally raped, murdered, set on fire, etc.:

"Could they have been saved? 'Hostage' police accused of being 'too late' to scene of Connecticut family massacre

The bank teller raised the alarm and police were dispatched to the family's home but are said to have spent over 30 minutes setting up roadblocks and cordoning off the area instead of trying to gain entry into the house.

These were the precious minutes the two attackers allegedly used to strangle the mother in her living room and start the fire that claimed the lives of the two girls upstairs.

The jury heard Wednesday that half an hour after police were notified of the incident, no fire, ambulance, state police or other emergency authorities had been alerted."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reacted-quicker-jury-told.html#ixzz1cvwQYHXb

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312686/Too-late-Massacred-Connecticut-family-saved-Police-reacted-quicker-jury-told.html

 

[defense101]

If only this family had been armed these poor girls wouldn't have been brutally raped, murdered, set on fire, etc.:

"Could they have been saved? 'Hostage' police accused of being 'too late' to scene of Connecticut family massacre

The bank teller raised the alarm and police were dispatched to the family's home but are said to have spent over 30 minutes setting up roadblocks and cordoning off the area instead of trying to gain entry into the house.

These were the precious minutes the two attackers allegedly used to strangle the mother in her living room and start the fire that claimed the lives of the two girls upstairs.

The jury heard Wednesday that half an hour after police were notified of the incident, no fire, ambulance, state police or other emergency authorities had been alerted."


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-reacted-quicker-jury-told.html#ixzz1cvwQYHXb

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1312686/Too-late-Massacred-Connecticut-family-saved-Police-reacted-quicker-jury-told.html

According to the evidence as to the way the attack occurred, a gun in the house in this case would not have helped, sadly...

 

[animlzrule]

According to the evidence as to the way the attack occurred, a gun in the house in this case would not have helped, sadly...

This is the case in the majority of instances. The father would've had to have been holding his gun and not sleeping when they entered the house in order to have had any chance at all. In order for a home owner to go up against an intruder you have to have almost perfect circumstances in order for it to be successful. CCW provides only the illusion of security and puts so many more at risk.

 

[Nova]

Nova Nova Nova, good to see you again. I'm so sorry but how can you look at this from the perspective of a woman raped or woman beaten and abused? If a woman is raped her past history is thrown around the courtroom for all to see and know yet the rapist's past crimes and criminal history cannot be admitted. That alone seems to justify in my mind that in that situation the criminal has more rights than the victim.

I will never claim to know exactly how it feels to be female and a rape victim. But I have a sister and a daughter; this is an issue that concerns men, too. I also have three grandchildren and I know how I would feel if one of them were accidentally shot while somebody was "dealing" with a rapist in a park.

The beaten and abused spouse's husband gets out of jail and kills her even with a restraining order. Where is the justice and outrage here?

There is plenty of outrage in such circumstances. I didn't say no one should ever arm herself. What I said was that we come here and feed each other's paranoia and nobody even acknowledges that crime rates are half what they were just two decades ago.

I will share this. I have a gun and will probably get a pemit to carry a concealed handgun soon. I want to go see my daughter in Kansas and I'd never go without one.

Why not? Kansas ranks 24th out of 50 states in terms of violent crimes; why is a gun especially necessary there?

***

I didn't mean to "come down" on your friend, but one of the things we do here is try to inject a little reason when the conversations get overly emotional. (This applies just as just to me. I'm quite capable of getting carried away with my own feelings and I'm grateful when other posters interject a little calmness.)

 

[OneLove]

When an intruder gains access into a home and is on top of a person sleeping before they know anyone is there, CLEARLY the issue starts at the point of access. Our security alarm and motion sensors take care of that. There are mobile battery operated inexpensive motion sensors for those who choose not to have a whole house system. I will not be asleep when an intruder is upon me. I will be waiting to open his door into the next kingdom.

On the issue of being concerned for the safety of innocent bystanders, ya REALLY feel that driving a vehicle like mad in a panic through traffic is, uhm, insuring the safety of everyone on or near the streets? Ya sure that ramming a speeding car into a building or stationary object is what you want to recommend to those "idiots at large" we call the general public? (I am not characterizing the public in that way, gun opponents are). So you're saying that they're too stupid to know when and how to stop a person with a gun but not too stupid to race out of control on public streets, parking lots, and neighborhoods? This baffles me to no end.

On the issue of guns being a hazard when they are not used and stored correctly, how many stories have we read right here at WS about children getting behind the wheel of a car and driving off, backing over and killing others, rolling into a pond, etc? How many children have died from being left in hot cars? How many people have proposed that we outlaw all moving vehicles because the "general public" is too stupid to use and store vehicles properly?

Using the argument that guns can be used against a household member in explosive anger and domestic violence, we have also seen plenty of stories of the same involving cars. Idiot dentist wife running over and killing idiot dentist husband, teens dragging to death innocents from bumpers, racists running over innocents for no other reason than they feared what they did not understand, teens killing roadside joggers simply to "score points" in idiot games .. Not to mention that every day people are killed ACCIDENTALLY by cars.......many many more so than guns!!!!

Can you even FATHOM my telling you that you should never be allowed to own a car again because there are people out there who can not or will not use them responsibly??? Imagine that I insinuate you MUST be one of those idiots and you can never convince me your need for a car supersedes MY personal need to know you will never get behind the wheel again because I would be more terrified knowing YOU PERSONALLY are out there running around indiscriminately in a deadly CAR! Geeze, you might even be stupid enough to go racing like mad through streets and ramming into buildings endangering many lives because you erroneously THOUGHT someone was threatening your life. No, you're not to be trusted. No way. Too much chance that you would hurt an innocent person.

It would actually make much more sense to ban cars than guns. Fewer people would be accidentally or intentionally killed. Criminals will ALWAYS have guns no matter the laws and they can EASILY conceal them. It would be impossible to conceal a car. We, the general public, would definitely know if you decided to take an illegal drive in a potentially deadly vehicle and we would all feel safer as a result. This would actually be a law that would be enforceable.

 

[OneLove]

A gun wouldn't have helped us. It would have helped him. Along with the silverware and other things he stole he would have taken the gun too. If my father had a large gun collection then a lot of guns would have been in criminals hands.

~ ~ snipped ~ ~

I guess we'd have to agree to disagree about whether or not the gun could've been taken away from you or not but there are other things you could do. If someone ever got into my car I'd start driving fast and out of control. I would tell him that I was thinking of committing suicide and he gave me the perfect excuse so people wouldn't think I did commit suicide. I might reach over and turn off the passenger air bag and ram a tree. I might drive like a maniac to the nearest police station and ram the car into the wall.
JMO

Steely, on your first comment, guns quite obviously are not for protecting your property when you are gone, they are for preserving your life when you are there. As to being stolen if your father HAD a gun, cars are stolen every day, lots of them, many more than guns, and then used in the commission of crimes or deadly accidents. Soooo.......I guess your dad shouldn't have a car that could be stolen either, huh?

On your gut instinct as to how you would preserve your life if accosted in a car, you are really scaring me. If this how the "general public" thinks, we are all in a lot of trouble and a lot of danger. I would MUCH rather you pull a pistol at close range and shoot your attacker in the middle of the chest inside your own car than to go careening at high speed out of control on city streets, ramming your car into buildings and such "Wild West Clint Eastwood High Adrenaline" antics. Can you really not see the potential to harm others with these actions?

It appears extremely hypocritical to think that YOU would not harm others by taking these admittedly out of control actions careening around wildly driving a lethal weapon but yet doubt the ability of a trained and experienced person to put a bullet in a person's chest at close range inside a car. I'm just not understanding this.

 

[animlzrule]

When an intruder gains access into a home and is on top of a person sleeping before they know anyone is there, CLEARLY the issue starts at the point of access. Our security alarm and motion sensors take care of that. There are mobile battery operated inexpensive motion sensors for those who choose not to have a whole house system. I will not be asleep when an intruder is upon me. I will be waiting to open his door into the next kingdom.

On the issue of being concerned for the safety of innocent bystanders, ya REALLY feel that driving a vehicle like mad in a panic through traffic is, uhm, insuring the safety of everyone on or near the streets? Ya sure that ramming a speeding car into a building or stationary object is what you want to recommend to those "idiots at large" we call the general public? (I am not characterizing the public in that way, gun opponents are). So you're saying that they're too stupid to know when and how to stop a person with a gun but not too stupid to race out of control on public streets, parking lots, and neighborhoods? This baffles me to no end.

On the issue of guns being a hazard when they are not used and stored correctly, how many stories have we read right here at WS about children getting behind the wheel of a car and driving off, backing over and killing others, rolling into a pond, etc? How many children have died from being left in hot cars? How many people have proposed that we outlaw all moving vehicles because the "general public" is too stupid to use and store vehicles properly?

Using the argument that guns can be used against a household member in explosive anger and domestic violence, we have also seen plenty of stories of the same involving cars. Idiot dentist wife running over and killing idiot dentist husband, teens dragging to death innocents from bumpers, racists running over innocents for no other reason than they feared what they did not understand, teens killing roadside joggers simply to "score points" in idiot games .. Not to mention that every day people are killed ACCIDENTALLY by cars.......many many more so than guns!!!!

Can you even FATHOM my telling you that you should never be allowed to own a car again because there are people out there who can not or will not use them responsibly??? Imagine that I insinuate you MUST be one of those idiots and you can never convince me your need for a car supersedes MY personal need to know you will never get behind the wheel again because I would be more terrified knowing YOU PERSONALLY are out there running around indiscriminately in a deadly CAR! Geeze, you might even be stupid enough to go racing like mad through streets and ramming into buildings endangering many lives because you erroneously THOUGHT someone was threatening your life. No, you're not to be trusted. No way. Too much chance that you would hurt an innocent person.

It would actually make much more sense to ban cars than guns. Fewer people would be accidentally or intentionally killed. Criminals will ALWAYS have guns no matter the laws and they can EASILY conceal them. It would be impossible to conceal a car. We, the general public, would definitely know if you decided to take an illegal drive in a potentially deadly vehicle and we would all feel safer as a result. This would actually be a law that would be enforceable.

This argument makes no sense. Apples, meet oranges.

 

[Nova]

Here are statistics in the RISE of violent sexual crimes against women ......
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19143411/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/sex-offenders-getting-younger-more-violent/

http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

The figures I quoted were for "forcible rapes," both now and in 1990.

The figures in your article include all sexual offenses including "nonviolent" ones; it may be influenced in part by the great expansion over the past 2 decades of what we consider a sexual offense.

I honestly don't know how to reconcile your figures with mine, but I don't think concealed weapons are really relevant if we are talking, for example, about statutory rape.

 

[Steely Dan]

Steely, on your first comment, guns quite obviously are not for protecting your property when you are gone, they are for preserving your life when you are there. As to being stolen if your father HAD a gun, cars are stolen every day, lots of them, many more than guns, and then used in the commission of crimes or deadly accidents. Soooo.......I guess your dad shouldn't have a car that could be stolen either, huh?

On your gut instinct as to how you would preserve your life if accosted in a car, you are really scaring me. If this how the "general public" thinks, we are all in a lot of trouble and a lot of danger. I would MUCH rather you pull a pistol at close range and shoot your attacker in the middle of the chest inside your own car than to go careening at high speed out of control on city streets, ramming your car into buildings and such "Wild West Clint Eastwood High Adrenaline" antics. Can you really not see the potential to harm others with these actions?

It appears extremely hypocritical to think that YOU would not harm others by taking these admittedly out of control actions careening around wildly driving a lethal weapon but yet doubt the ability of a trained and experienced person to put a bullet in a person's chest at close range inside a car. I'm just not understanding this.

BBM

That's the point. He didn't have a gun and therefore nobody got an illegal gun to pass around. People with 30 guns or more in their home think they are well equipped to deal with intruders but don't think about where those guns will go when they are stolen while they aren't home.

This argument makes no sense. Apples, meet oranges.

The idea of going insane in the car was, a little, tongue in cheek and with the caveat "depending on traffic". I also used it to make somebody come up with car vs. gun analogy. Guns are made to kill people. Cars are not. In fact cars are being made safer every year a lot of it is due to government mandates.

Comparing a gun to a car is like comparing apples to oranges as animlzrule pointed out.

 

[Nova]

For 20 years, I lived in a beach community within the city of Los Angeles. Very high crime for the first decade or so, particularly because of the gang activity about a quarter mile from my house.

The houses in my neighborhood were made of thin, wood frames covered only with stucco, and the lots were only 40' wide. Even if you shot an assailant, depending on the strength of the gun, you'd have no way of preventing that shot from passing through the assailant and into your neighbor 10 or 15 feet beyond.

The United States is simply too crowded to pretend this is the Wild West and we should each protect ourselves by wearing six-shooters.