Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

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Just so that I can try to better understand the argument regarding staging...

Is it suggested that JB was already dead before the garotte was applied and that it was only applied after death as a matter of staging to make the crime look like something that it wasn't?
A very few posters believe this, but that believe is not supported by, indeed it is contradicted by, the evidence, and nothing ever said or reported by anyone associated with the evidence or the investigation supports this position.
...

AK
 
Just so that I can try to better understand the argument regarding staging...

Is it suggested that JB was already dead before the garotte was applied and that it was only applied after death as a matter of staging to make the crime look like something that it wasn't?

More like the person THOUGHT she was already dead. Other than that, you're quite accurate, as I see it.
 
More like the person THOUGHT she was already dead. Other than that, you're quite accurate, as I see it.
LS: ...Just a couple of questions, and these are just miscellaneous questions that I had. In what area of he house do you think that JonBenet received the injuries to her head? That is just from your own....

JR: Well, I guess my impression is that it was in the basement. But that's just purely an assumption. We didn't hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or - you know, we would have heard that. I didn't know she had any head injury at all. It wasn't - I just didn't see....

LS: You had no knowledge?

JR: I don't know. I just, that's something that's been difficult for me to think about it, is what exactly happened.

LS: And where?

JR: And where.

LS: Do you think that the head injury occurred at the same place as the other injuries, say, with the ligature?

JR: I mean, its just no reason to - to know that. I mean, I guess - well, like I say, I just - that's very difficult to think about and imagine, but I wondered whether the head injury didn't kill her and after that they strangled her.

John is speculating on whether the head injury came first, then strangulation?


Excerpt from Delmar England letter to ML.
 
Just so that I can try to better understand the argument regarding staging...

Is it suggested that JB was already dead before the garotte was applied and that it was only applied after death as a matter of staging to make the crime look like something that it wasn't?

More like the person THOUGHT she was already dead. Other than that, you're quite accurate, as I see it.

SuperDave said what I was going to say :)

A very few posters believe this, but that believe is not supported by, indeed it is contradicted by, the evidence, and nothing ever said or reported by anyone associated with the evidence or the investigation supports this position.
...

AK

There is just as much evidence to support this theory as there is to support every single other theory thrown out.
 
Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure if I was understanding the line of thought completely. I have a hard time buying it, but I do understand it better. There are just so many things that don't make sense. Staging like that I would suggest supports a theory that all of the family members are in on it, or at least both JR and PR. An outsider or JR/PR alone stand too much of a risk of being caught after the believed death and during the staging. There would have been too much concern that one of the Ramseys was aroused from their sleep and checked out the house and then they'd be caught red handed. But if it were the Ramseys, the more logical staging would have included diverting attention from them by removing the body from the house and not pointing attention to them by leaving the body in the house, using SOME items from the house as part of the staging. Just trying to picture a scenario in which that kind of staging makes sense.
 
There is just as much evidence to support this theory as there is to support every single other theory thrown out.

This I find to be a reasonable statement. I am extremely leery of those who believe that their theory is correct to the exclusion of all others. Anyone who thinks their possibility is the only possibility is probably wrong.
 
Sorry, but this isn’t a theory; it is a fact: Jonbenet was asphyxiated to death by the ligature that was found tightened around her neck.

Now, someone may argue that the person who asphyxiated her thought that she was already dead. That’s a different story, but it is a FACT that she was alive when the garrote was put upon her and she was alive when it was tightened and it was the tightening of it that killed her (associated with...).
...

AK
 
Everyone knows these things, and no one but for a very few forum posters deny them. The garrote was real and the asphyxiation was real and the autopsy report and photos tell us this, as does every account regarding this act as related by all persons connected to the investigation. There is no question and no doubt that the garrote and the asphyxiation were real.

The autopsy is one of several sources that tells us that the sexual assault occurred at or near point of death.

The sexual aspect of this crime was not evident until the autopsy. The victim was dressed, and covered and appeared as if she had been simply tucked in for the night. So, the evidence tells us that she was not staged to appear as if she had been sexually assaulted
...

AK

Anti-K,
Everyone knows these things
Except me, of course.

The garrote was real
I disagree. The garrote was fake, assembled as staging. It could not have worked as advertised, JonBenet's hair was embedded into the knotting on the paintbrush handle, so it could not mechanically operate as a garrote!

asphyxiation was real
I agree, the Autopsy Report does indeed report asphyxiation as a cause of death.

The autopsy is one of several sources that tells us that the sexual assault occurred at or near point of death.
mmm, not sure about that, do you have any citations or sources to back this claim up?

The sexual aspect of this crime was not evident until the autopsy.
Any citations or sources would be of assistance.

The sexual aspect of this crime was not evident until the autopsy. The victim was dressed, and covered and appeared as if she had been simply tucked in for the night. So, the evidence tells us that she was not staged to appear as if she had been sexually assaulted
Sources or citations would help. If the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet then not being staged with sexual assault absent might be questionable.

.
 
Anti-K,

Except me, of course.


I disagree. The garrote was fake, assembled as staging. It could not have worked as advertised, JonBenet's hair was embedded into the knotting on the paintbrush handle, so it could not mechanically operate as a garrote!


I agree, the Autopsy Report does indeed report asphyxiation as a cause of death.


mmm, not sure about that, do you have any citations or sources to back this claim up?


Any citations or sources would be of assistance.


Sources or citations would help. If the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet then not being staged with sexual assault absent might be questionable.

.
BBM

As a slip knot the ligature should have tightened around the neck almost exactly as you see in this video: http://tinyurl.com/mg4vvhr
.

Jonbenet Ramsey’s killer placed duct tape over the 6-yaear-old’s mouth and tightened a cord around her neck until she died. RMN; jan 1/97; Brennan and Bartels

“My guess is that the child had her head whacked against something and then was still alive and strangled,” said Dr. Robert Kirschner, a retired deputy chief medical examiner for Cook County, Illinois. PMPT; p. 964

However the strangulation by the noose had created a deep furrow in her neck, which acted like a tourniquet and caused complete interruption of the blood flow to and from her brain. The specialists estimated that ten to forty-five minutes might have elapsed between the blow to her head and the cessation of Jonbenet’s vital functions, which was probably caused by the noose being pulled tight with the help of the stick attached to the cord. PMPT; P. 1154

The person pulling the cord and tightening the noose little by little around Jonbenet’s neck... PMPT; P. 1540

The cord tied around Jonbenet’s neck was not a classical garrote in which both ends of the cord are attached to a turning device such as a stick. In this case, the cord had been placed around Jonbenet’s neck like a noose, the cord pulled through a knot, and a stick tied to the cord 17 inches from the knot. PMPT; P. 612

[Lee] questioned why a six-year-old girl, who could easily have been manually strangled, had been choked with a garrote. Thomas; P. 147
.

The autopsy report and photographs tell us that Jonbenet was alive when the garrote was put upon her and she was alive when it was tightened and it was the tightening of it that killed her (associated with...). Every account, every report, every opinion (those of a few forum posters notwithstanding) supports the claim – the fact - that Jonbenet was asphyxiated to death by the ligature positioned, and embedded, as we see it in the autopsy photos.
.

Hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle strongly suggests that the cord was wrapped around the handle close enough to the victim so as to catch her hair during the process.

The act of pulling the handle to tighten the garrote would also be an act of pulling the victim’s hair.

Thomas mentions (p. 41) that Meyer had to cut the hair entwined in the knot around the neck, but he does not mention the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle. Kolar also mentions (p. 55) that Meyer had to cut the hair entwined in the knot around the neck, but he does not mention the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle.

The hair entwined in the hair wrapped around the handle was pulled out of the victim’s head when the handle was pulled by her killer. See Kolar; start listening at 94:30 mark, here: http://tinyurl.com/kptc2co “...there was a number of hair that had been pulled, hairs that had been pulled from, um, from her head and neck area if I recall correctly...” “...my impression and my recollection is that the uh the hair that was connected ... was not connected to her scalp or hair or her neck at that juncture...”
...

AK
 
Anti-K,

Except me, of course.


I disagree. The garrote was fake, assembled as staging. It could not have worked as advertised, JonBenet's hair was embedded into the knotting on the paintbrush handle, so it could not mechanically operate as a garrote!


I agree, the Autopsy Report does indeed report asphyxiation as a cause of death.


mmm, not sure about that, do you have any citations or sources to back this claim up?


Any citations or sources would be of assistance.


Sources or citations would help. If the missing piece of the paintbrush handle was left inside JonBenet then not being staged with sexual assault absent might be questionable.

.

BBM

Feb. 15 - JonBenet Ramsey was the apparent victim of a forceful sexual attack in the minutes before she was strangled to death - an attack that left her body scraped and bruised, according to a partial autopsy report released Friday by a Boulder County judge. http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon22.htm

“After viewing the slides, Spitz repeated his opinion: the injury to JonBenét’s vagina had happened either at or immediately prior to her death – not earlier.” PMPT; p. 777

“Photographs of her injured hymen taken at the autopsy indicated to some experts a recent tear, fresh bleeding, and no healing. Logic suggested that JonBenét had been penetrated almost concurrently with her death.” PMPT; p. 780

Experts in their field, physicians and forensic pathologists were consulted from St. Louis, Missouri; Dade County, Florida; Wayne County, Michigan, and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to name just a few. They examined the series of photographs that depicted the injuries and came to the opinion that Jonbenet had been subjected to sexual intrusion prior to the insertion of the foreign object that had created the injury at the time of her death. Kolar; p. 63

Dr Meyer conducted an external examination of Jonbenet’s genitalia. He had observed spots of blood in the crotch of the underwear she had been wearing when her clothing had been removed, and this alerted him to the possibility that there was a cause for this evidence to be present.

He observed that there was fresh trauma located at the 7:00 o’clock position at the hymeneal opening. The area was inflamed and had been bleeding, and it appeared to Dr Meyer that a foreign object had been inserted into Jonbenet’s genitalia at or near the time of her death. Kolar; p. 87-58


[Dr Meyer] also said there was acute vaginal injury that had happened around the time of death. Thomas; p. 146
...

AK
 
A very few posters believe this, but that believe is not supported by, indeed it is contradicted by, the evidence, and nothing ever said or reported by anyone associated with the evidence or the investigation supports this position.
...

AK

This is your opinion and needs to be stated as such, thanks. Everyone is allowed to interpret the evidence, information as they wish.

Salem
 
This is your opinion and needs to be stated as such, thanks. Everyone is allowed to interpret the evidence, information as they wish.

Salem

Well, at the risk of being given a TO, or being banned, I have to say that this is not a matter of IMO. Jonbenet was asphyxiated to death, strangulation by ligature. That is a fact.
...

AK
 
Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure if I was understanding the line of thought completely. I have a hard time buying it, but I do understand it better. There are just so many things that don't make sense. Staging like that I would suggest supports a theory that all of the family members are in on it, or at least both JR and PR. An outsider or JR/PR alone stand too much of a risk of being caught after the believed death and during the staging. There would have been too much concern that one of the Ramseys was aroused from their sleep and checked out the house and then they'd be caught red handed. But if it were the Ramseys, the more logical staging would have included diverting attention from them by removing the body from the house and not pointing attention to them by leaving the body in the house, using SOME items from the house as part of the staging. Just trying to picture a scenario in which that kind of staging makes sense.

BBM.

Try this one: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?96736-Loved-to-Death&p=4863970#post4863970
 
something I think needs to be reiterated here ...Archuleta was still on the phone with PR, when she heard her hysterical tone dissipate. She didn't base this statement on what she heard on a recording with all the static and bleeps, etc. IMO, if it had been a child's voice she heard, she would have known it wasn't PR's voice. Also IMO, if PR had been wailing, she would have noticed. moo


If the mouthpiece was moving away from PR - as she slowly tried to hang up- (or as it was about to be placed on the cradle but PR hesitated) her "help me jesus" would have been faint, the "tone" would seem to dissipate.

If PR was faking the call I don't see why she would have repeated "help me jesus" four times.
 
Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure if I was understanding the line of thought completely. I have a hard time buying it, but I do understand it better. There are just so many things that don't make sense. Staging like that I would suggest supports a theory that all of the family members are in on it, or at least both JR and PR. An outsider or JR/PR alone stand too much of a risk of being caught after the believed death and during the staging. There would have been too much concern that one of the Ramseys was aroused from their sleep and checked out the house and then they'd be caught red handed. But if it were the Ramseys, the more logical staging would have included diverting attention from them by removing the body from the house and not pointing attention to them by leaving the body in the house, using SOME items from the house as part of the staging. Just trying to picture a scenario in which that kind of staging makes sense.

Exactly. You can't stage a convincing kidnapping when there has patently been no kidnapping. The plan had to include removal of the body from the house. Since there is little to nothing that supports IDI, the only thing left is one R had a plan to remove the body and the other R was ignorant of the plan.
 
Exactly. You can't stage a convincing kidnapping when there has patently been no kidnapping. The plan had to include removal of the body from the house. Since there is little to nothing that supports IDI, the only thing left is one R had a plan to remove the body and the other R was ignorant of the plan.

BBM or one R refused to go along with the plan. :dunno:
 
dodie20,
The garroting was most certainly not genuine. JonBenet's hyoid bone was left intact and there was little damage to JonBenet's muscle surrounding the ligature, q.v. Autopsy Report. JonBenet was wearing a necklace over which crossed the ligature, yet Coroner Meyer never reported any injuries as a result of this, JonBenet's hair was tied into the knotting on the ligaure/paintbrush, q.v. AcandyRose, if this had been turned, twisted or pulled JonBenet's hair would have been pulled out at the roots, again Coroner Meyer never reported any injuries to JonBenet's scalp arising from the ligature/paintbrush.

JR, PR and BR all colluded to fake a version of events which left BR in his bed, except later it transpires BR was awake and he stated that JonBenet walked into the house the previous night.

BR colluded in staging the death of JonBenet, the facts speak for themselves, you do not need to choose them, they offer themselves gratis to you.

.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8934706

The hyoid is only broken in about 1/3 of strangulation cases.
 
What gets me is how after "finding" her body John is ready to leave town and then they justeave her there under the tree. As ST said in his book parents of murdered children resist leaving the body. I know they eventually had to leave but just walk on out no words or nothing to her. .. poor girl... I imagine she may have suffered alot before that day. MOO
 
What gets me is how after "finding" her body John is ready to leave town and then they justeave her there under the tree. As ST said in his book parents of murdered children resist leaving the body. I know they eventually had to leave but just walk on out no words or nothing to her. .. poor girl... I imagine she may have suffered alot before that day. MOO

I often wonder if the Ramsey's had a plan to go on the lam. Perhaps they would pay off their pilot and just cross over into Mexico or someplace.
 

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