Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

[UKGuy]

I think the garroting was genuine too, but what I see, wasn't necessarily sexual, but more as a way for the killer to distance him/herself from the strangling. And then he might have left everything as is, because he planned to dispose of the body. As for the Rs not being suspicious of each other, here's something to consider...in the early reports from LE that day, it was reported that the Rs didn't speak to or comfort each other, so IMO, one or the other might have been angry and or suspicious. One reason I don't think BR was involved, is because he seemed to tell the truth, even when it meant going against his parent's statements. I don't want to pick and choose which statements of his to believe, so it's either all or nothing...so I choose to believe what he said. moo

dodie20,
The garroting was most certainly not genuine. JonBenet's hyoid bone was left intact and there was little damage to JonBenet's muscle surrounding the ligature, q.v. Autopsy Report. JonBenet was wearing a necklace over which crossed the ligature, yet Coroner Meyer never reported any injuries as a result of this, JonBenet's hair was tied into the knotting on the ligaure/paintbrush, q.v. AcandyRose, if this had been turned, twisted or pulled JonBenet's hair would have been pulled out at the roots, again Coroner Meyer never reported any injuries to JonBenet's scalp arising from the ligature/paintbrush.

JR, PR and BR all colluded to fake a version of events which left BR in his bed, except later it transpires BR was awake and he stated that JonBenet walked into the house the previous night.

BR colluded in staging the death of JonBenet, the facts speak for themselves, you do not need to choose them, they offer themselves gratis to you.

.

 

[elannia]

the 911 operator (Archuleta) is the first to alert authorities of the additional conversation at the end of the call.



Kolar/Foreign Faction (emphasis mine)

Not sure what "groups" you are referring to that state "Burke's voice was not present."

Exactly... If the Ramseys are innocent then no need to lie whether Burke was awake or not. MOO

 

[UKGuy]

I'm not sure I understand your point. If Burke hit her, he knew. If John and Patsy didn't know then the assumption would be they staged an elaborate cover up for Burke without knowing about the head wound or the sexual assault since neither were outwardly obvious. I find that very unlikely.

If I had to guess a brother would be more willing to say he hit his sister with a flashlight and can't wake her up than to admit he was fondling her. But the staging was definitely for the sexual assault. I don't think Burke could have convinced them the fondling caused her to collapse. Also even if the head injury wasn't visually obvious a crack like that would be obvious to the touch. I think if Burke did this and the parents staged it all, they knew exactly what they were dealing with.


Maybe. But that didn't last long. He certainly didn't make a garotte, slowly twist it and write a 3 page note with "attache", "exhausting" and "fat cat" and he wouldn't have made the note about his dad and not JB.
What staging do you think he did?



I don't agree. Molesters, especially ones that prey on family and close friends, don't go for the end result immediately. While a child may be more curious with their hands, they are more clumsy. I think the specific erosion pattern shows more control than a curious child would have.
And an adult who is grooming a child would definitely probe with fingers and/or small devices before full blown intercourse. If intercourse was the goal, that is.



In my mind this murder has always been about the sexual assaults. Not wetting the bed or playing doctor or even sibling uproar.

2 percent,

I'm not sure I understand your point. If Burke hit her, he knew. If John and Patsy didn't know then the assumption would be they staged an elaborate cover up for Burke without knowing about the head wound or the sexual assault since neither were outwardly obvious. I find that very unlikely.

Patently the person who whacked JonBenet on the head knew this, but other R's need not know this, JonBenet's head injury was not apparent until Coroner Meyer undertook the standard autopsy procedure of peeling her scalp back.

If BR had cleaned up JonBenet then any sexual assault might not be apparent either, so unless BR comes clean with his parents they are left to work out what took place, as someone did when they wiped JonBenet down, q.v Autopsy Report, and changed her into size-12 underwear.

I'm simply suggesting BR may have staged away some of the obvious forensic evidence, not that he actually did so.

But the staging was definitely for the sexual assault.

Sure, and this is why they never dialled for medical assistance!

Maybe. But that didn't last long. He certainly didn't make a garotte, slowly twist it and write a 3 page note with "attache", "exhausting" and "fat cat" and he wouldn't have made the note about his dad and not JB.
What staging do you think he did?

The garrote was never twisted, mechanically it could not function as advertised, q.v. AcandyRose.com. All the downstairs staging was undertaken by JR and PR. BR might have wiped JonBenet down, redressed her in some manner, tidied up any obvious signs of disarray and laid her on her own bed? Bear in mind BR's touch-dna was found on JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown along with JonBenet's bloodstains

In my mind this murder has always been about the sexual assaults. Not wetting the bed or playing doctor or even sibling uproar.

ITA. Thats why I do not buy Steve Thomas' timeline or theory.

,

 

[dodie20]

' Archuleta asked her supervisor if police had listened to the 911 tape and was told that they had already obtained a copy of the recording: “What about the end of the call? Have they listened to the tail end of the call after Patsy Ramsey had stopped talking?” The supervisor looked back at Archuleta with a puzzled look on her face. “What are you talking about?” she asked. The 911 call didn’t end when Patsy stopped talking to her, Archuleta explained. The telephone line had not disconnected immediately, and she had heard a definite change in the tone of Patsy Ramsey’s voice before the call was fully terminated. Archuleta explained that the hysterical nature of Patsy Ramsey’s voice appeared to have dissipated, and she thought that she had been talking to someone nearby at her end of the telephone line. Investigators needed to listen to that extended part of the 911 call, Archuleta told her supervisor'. And this is where I have a problem with the whole BR was on the 911 call. The operator heard PR's hysterical tone dissipate. Her saying 'help me Jesus', over and over, wouldn't jibe with a dissipation. It would be consistent with hysterics. The operator thought PR was talking to another person, not that 2 other people were talking while PR, wailed for Jesus. And when I listen to the 911, that's what I hear, IMO...PR and JR.

 

[midwest mama]

BBM

IA in the sense that john knew jonbenet was dead. JRs response to Burke's questions doesn't jive with the "your sister's been kidnapped" scenario IMO. Anger isn't the response a father would exhibit to an innocent child. According to the revised account of that morning, "Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," and, "Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

If true why would john lash out at his son in such a way?

My gut response is: because he was a cold hearted, self serving controller who was thrown off from the plan he was trying to make work, and he was frustrated by Burkes interruption after discovering Patsy making a phone call to police that he did not expect would happen.

I have to say I believe John had been pretty far over a rational emotional edge due to Beth's death. He was on meds and I believe he was in the early stages of beginning another father/daughter attachment with JB. But I also believe there was a great deal more going on in that family/household that tied the family to the sexual dynamic revealed in this crime.

JB'S death, IMO, brought a screeching halt to JR being further involved in anything that could lead to detection of his activities and connections.

 

[elannia]

' Archuleta asked her supervisor if police had listened to the 911 tape and was told that they had already obtained a copy of the recording: “What about the end of the call? Have they listened to the tail end of the call after Patsy Ramsey had stopped talking?” The supervisor looked back at Archuleta with a puzzled look on her face. “What are you talking about?” she asked. The 911 call didn’t end when Patsy stopped talking to her, Archuleta explained. The telephone line had not disconnected immediately, and she had heard a definite change in the tone of Patsy Ramsey’s voice before the call was fully terminated. Archuleta explained that the hysterical nature of Patsy Ramsey’s voice appeared to have dissipated, and she thought that she had been talking to someone nearby at her end of the telephone line. Investigators needed to listen to that extended part of the 911 call, Archuleta told her supervisor'. And this is where I have a problem with the whole BR was on the 911 call. The operator heard PR's hysterical tone dissipate. Her saying 'help me Jesus', over and over, wouldn't jibe with a dissipation. It would be consistent with hysterics. The operator thought PR was talking to another person, not that 2 other people were talking while PR, wailed for Jesus. And when I listen to the 911, that's what I hear, IMO...PR and JR.

Someone had posted patsy woukd talk in a childlike voice. I heard the "what did you find" on the 911 call and I justvwonder if that was actually patsy and she was asking john what did you find(maybe meaning she hid JB)? But that doesnt explain the were not talking to you.

 

[Mama2JML]

the 911 operator (Archuleta) is the first to alert authorities of the additional conversation at the end of the call.



Kolar/Foreign Faction (emphasis mine)

Not sure what "groups" you are referring to that hold the "majority view that Burke's voice was not present."

The FBI & the Secret Service are among the "majority".

 

[dodie20]

I think the writer who said PR would talk in a childlike way, was a reporter for the enquirer? I remember him saying that when he asked her how if felt to go back and listen to the 911, she answered with something about it making her heart go pitty pat, or something like that. I'll go and find the source. That 911 is almost impossible to make out 100%, but this was a long time ago, and I wonder how exactly the experts listened? What kind of equipment did they have, and can the average person buy it now?

 

[DeeDee249]

Ever consider BR banged her on the head because she WASN'T quiet? That she was bashed because she screamed? To me, that explains the head bash perfectly- nothing else really does.

 

[questfortrue]

the 911 operator (Archuleta) is the first to alert authorities of the additional conversation at the end of the call.



Kolar/Foreign Faction (emphasis mine)

Not sure what "groups" you are referring to that hold the "majority view that Burke's voice was not present."

Correct that FBI and Secret Service could not distinguish the sounds. But months later the tape was sent to a private company with the technology to lift the end of call conversation.
From IRMI:
In preliminary examinations, detectives thought they could hear some more words being spoken between the time Patsy Ramsey said, "Hurry, hurry, hurry" and when the call was terminated. However, the FBI and the U.S. Secret Service could not lift anything from the background noise on the tape. As a final effort several months later, we contacted the electronic wizards at the Aerospace Corporation in Los Angeles and asked them to try and decipher the sounds behind the noise.

Their work produced a startling conclusion. Patsy apparently had trouble hanging up the telephone, and before it rested on the cradle she was heard to moan, "Help me, Jesus, Help me, Jesus." Her husband was heard to bark, "We're not talking to you." And in the background was a young-sounding voice: "What did you find?" It was JonBenet's brother, Burke.

Unsurprisingly, many private companies develop technology first which is then later licensed/contracted by the government for use in security. One example appearing in the news recently: Netherlands company Gemalto recently purchased SafeNet, a US technology company which protects 80% of the world's intra-bank fund transfers. SafeNet has 25,000 customers including governments and corporations such as Bank of America, Cisco, Dell and Hewlett-Packard.

 

[dodie20]

something I think needs to be reiterated here ...Archuleta was still on the phone with PR, when she heard her hysterical tone dissipate. She didn't base this statement on what she heard on a recording with all the static and bleeps, etc. IMO, if it had been a child's voice she heard, she would have known it wasn't PR's voice. Also IMO, if PR had been wailing, she would have noticed. moo

 

[elannia]

I think the writer who said PR would talk in a childlike way, was a reporter for the enquirer? I remember him saying that when he asked her how if felt to go back and listen to the 911, she answered with something about it making her heart go pitty pat, or something like that. I'll go and find the source. That 911 is almost impossible to make out 100%, but this was a long time ago, and I wonder how exactly the experts listened? What kind of equipment did they have, and can the average person buy it now?

It would be nice if they would go back now and review that call considering all the latest technology

 

[elannia]

Ever consider BR banged her on the head because she WASN'T quiet? That she was bashed because she screamed? To me, that explains the head bash perfectly- nothing else really does.

Thats what I thought too. One scream head blow then silence.

 

[bettybaby00]

something I think needs to be reiterated here ...Archuleta was still on the phone with PR, when she heard her hysterical tone dissipate. She didn't base this statement on what she heard on a recording with all the static and bleeps, etc. IMO, if it had been a child's voice she heard, she would have known it wasn't PR's voice. Also IMO, if PR had been wailing, she would have noticed. moo

Sometimes stating the obvious is helpful :lol:

 

[elannia]

I just had a question... does anyone on here talk on the phone. To other WS's

 

[Anti-K]

I think the garroting was genuine too, but what I see, wasn't necessarily sexual, but more as a way for the killer to distance him/herself from the strangling. And then he might have left everything as is, because he planned to dispose of the body. As for the Rs not being suspicious of each other, here's something to consider...in the early reports from LE that day, it was reported that the Rs didn't speak to or comfort each other, so IMO, one or the other might have been angry and or suspicious. One reason I don't think BR was involved, is because he seemed to tell the truth, even when it meant going against his parent's statements. I don't want to pick and choose which statements of his to believe, so it's either all or nothing...so I choose to believe what he said. moo

“Detectives Harmer and Hickman interviewed [victim advocates] Jedamus and Morlock at police headquarters.
“The Ramseys probably didn’t know that their conversations with the advocates were not confidential or privileged by law. Jedamus and Morlock were obligated to tell the detectives everything they could remember, since they worked for - and were partly compensated by - the police department.”
<snip>
&#8220;Morlock remembered that John Ramsey had cried but tried to control his emotions even when he was so distraught that he could barely speak.
<snip>
Merlock &#8220;told the detectives that she had seen John and Patsy sitting together in the dining room holding each other and talking.&#8221; PMPT; p. 325
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

the 911 operator (Archuleta) is the first to alert authorities of the additional conversation at the end of the call.



Kolar/Foreign Faction (emphasis mine)

Not sure what "groups" you are referring to that hold the "majority view that Burke's voice was not present."

Archuleta does not say that she heard a conversation, or that she heard voices other than Mrs Ramsey&#8217;s.
.

Other &#8216;groups&#8221; referred to include the FBI, the Secret Service, 3 separate firms hired by, iirc, NBC and CBS(?), and, iirc, Tricia also hired a firm to analyze the call. None of these &#8220;groups&#8221; support what Thomas, Kolar, etc have told us about the aerospace findings; these other groups form the "majority view that Burke's voice was not present."

I think there is something at the end of the call, but what is it &#8211; I don&#8217;t know.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K,
Please explain how you know these things, i.e. cite evidential sources please, otherwise I'll just assume your assertions are mere opinion!

.

Everyone knows these things, and no one but for a very few forum posters deny them. The garrote was real and the asphyxiation was real and the autopsy report and photos tell us this, as does every account regarding this act as related by all persons connected to the investigation. There is no question and no doubt that the garrote and the asphyxiation were real.

The autopsy is one of several sources that tells us that the sexual assault occurred at or near point of death.

The sexual aspect of this crime was not evident until the autopsy. The victim was dressed, and covered and appeared as if she had been simply tucked in for the night. So, the evidence tells us that she was not staged to appear as if she had been sexually assaulted
...

AK

 

[reedus23]

Just so that I can try to better understand the argument regarding staging...

Is it suggested that JB was already dead before the garotte was applied and that it was only applied after death as a matter of staging to make the crime look like something that it wasn't?

 

[DeeDee249]

Just so that I can try to better understand the argument regarding staging...

Is it suggested that JB was already dead before the garotte was applied and that it was only applied after death as a matter of staging to make the crime look like something that it wasn't?

She couldn't have been dead when the garrote was applied. The ligature furrow is RED. Had she already been dead, the furrow would be white. (livor mortis would have prevented the blood from seeping back into the space under pressure. The blood is gelled by then- not liquid).