elannia
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Maybe so... Strange isnt it? And were they just going to leave her there (well I think he did say himself B and P) going to atl so what were they planning on doing with her body if the three left
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WI - Kara Welsh, 21, Homicide, Shooting, Aug 30, 2024 (Arrest)- Latest: georgiajean
Maybe so... Strange isnt it? And were they just going to leave her there (well I think he did say himself B and P) going to atl so what were they planning on doing with her body if the three left
that was my point. The operator was freaked out enough by PR's change in voice to worry about it and then report it. If the operator had heard her say 'help me Jesus', it's moo that she wouldn't have been freaked out, because that would have fit right in with her earlier hysterics. Kind of ironic that the operator was worried enough by what she heard, to report it, but then it was later determined that what she heard wasn't what she heard? I hear a conversation, so I'm not really swayed by the agencies who said there was nothing there, but what I am interested in, is the difference between what the operator heard and what was later transcribed. There's big core difference there.
that's what I think makes sense. But when? and how? moo
otg
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Bear in mind also that the 1/3 stated in your referenced cite is referring to the general population(?) of victims -- IOW, mostly adult. As the reference points out, much is dependent on the method of strangulation, the nature and magnitude of force, anatomic features of the victim's hyoid bone, and especially the age of the victim. In fact, from what I have read previously, I would say it is almost impossible to break the hyoid of a child because it hasn't fused into a single bone yet.
otg
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(rsbm for relevance)
UKGuy’s post clearly differentiated the basis of what had been disputed:
You are mostly correct in stating this last assertion as fact, AK (although the AR doesn’t list asphyxiation as the only COD). But that’s not what you stated previously that was challenged. Earlier you used the word “garrote” rather than “ligature”, and in fact you recognized them as two different things when you stated (above), "The garrote was real and the asphyxiation was real." The dispute is not over “ligature strangulation” -- but whether or not the ligature found on JonBenet’s neck was actually a “garrote”. You could argue the correct use of the word, but you do know (I think) that the “device” found on her is not what is typically used to garrote a victim. There has been enough discussion on this already that you must realize that you can’t just substitute one word for the other in restating what you previously said in order to say that what you had stated is a fact.
UKGuy’s post clearly differentiated the basis of what had been disputed:
The FACT that she was asphyxiated has never been questioned.
otg
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(Sorry I'm just now catching up, dodie.) I know Burke contradicted some of his parents' statements, but I really don't remember hearing that he was even questioned as to whether or not that might be his voice on the 911 call. Also, I think it is significant that the lawyer representing him for his GJ testimony was given a copy of the 911 call prior to his being called.
If I recall correctly, dodie, you were one of the posters who said you couldn't make out what was being said at the end of the recording. As for myself, I've heard the voice, I know it is not John and that it is not Patsy using a childlike voice. (BTW, I'm familiar with that mostly-female tactic -- Mrs. otg uses it when she wants something from me.) I have no doubt that all three still-living Ramseys were in the room during the 911 call. We can each interpret that as we will, but John and Burke were both in the room with Patsy during the call -- regardless of anyone's denial of it.
elannia
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Just curious. Why isnt JAR in any photos in the book DOI? All of the family is in there but not him.
Chrishope,
BBM: mmm, well a convincing kidnapping was staged and it was successful until JR found JonBenet!
Also assuming TOD around 12:00 midnight or earlier your R has over 5 hours to relocate JonBenet's body, this was never undertaken!
The staging itself tells you that JonBenet's body was never intended to be relocated, otherwise why bother with all the staging: fake garrote, new size-12's, white longjohns etc?
DocG's theory is dead in the water, its all about future events that never happen, in otherwords its not a testable theory, its just an interesting story that does not stack up!
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otg
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The only person who could definitively answer that question doesn't post here using his real name.
elannia
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It's hardly DIW.
If TOD was around midnight (and I agree) how can JR get the car out and load up the body w/o the possibility of PR finding out or being seen by neighbors? It would have made no sense to try to move the body that night.
A convincing kidnapping wasn't staged - it completely failed to convince ST the lead investigator. It completely fails to convince Kolar. It completely fails to convince most RDI. In fact you are taking the rather strange position that the kidnapping is plausible, while insisting that it's not IDI. The Rs were suspected immediately. If it the "successful kidnapping" was going so well why did JR "find" her?
The garrotte may or may not be fake, staging. I know you think it was, but it's just as likely it wasn't. Either way it can be blamed on the kidnappers -IF the body is found later, outside the house. With the body in the house and little or nothing supporting IDI, it's a given the kidnappers didn't do it. Even BPD could see that (most of them) I don't know why she was redressed in size 12s but I don't see how that "tells us" she wasn't meant to be relocated. Perhaps you could expand on that. Ditto with the LJs.
It seems reasonable to me that she was redressed so that even if the body was discovered before disposal, PR wouldn't know about the sexual aspect of the crime. It also seems likely to me that PR really did put the LJs on JBR at bedtime, otherwise there is really no reason to use them. They also hide the fact that she's wearing size 12s, so by outward appearance she seems to be dressed as she was at bedtime. That's important if she is later found outside the home; she should be found dressed (if dressed at all) in the clothing she wore to bed.
For me, it's the fact that she isn't taken upstiars and left undressed with no RN (IOWs she's not stagged as a sex killer victim) that tells us there was an intent to dump the body. The sceanario being staged is a kidnapping. That, for me, is simply not beleivable with the body in the house.
As far as I can tell there are no testable theories. There are only scenarios which do or do not strike people as realistic. For me It's not realistic that the Rs expected anyhone to believe an inruder kidnapper morphed into an intruder killer/redresser after finding the body in the house. But if you believe that, that's your privelige. I have no problem with your rejection of the Doc theory, but let's not pretend any theory can be tested short of a trial, and a trial isn't ever going to happen.
I've changed theories more than once, and have never been set on one scenario...mainly because there is too much information we don't have access to, so filling in the blanks leaves a lot of options open to speculation. As far as the 911, this is what I'm pretty sure of. #1, there was a conversation after PR was finished with the operator. #2, the operator said she heard PR's voice... PR speaking in a childlike voice was just a theory. I'm not sold on that theory, mainly because I think the operator talked to PR long enough to recognize her voice a couple of seconds later....and she never said PR's voice went from hysterical to childlike. From what I've read, (and this is one of those instances where they may not have released all the information), the operator didn't hear a young male, unless that's the voice she heard PR conversing with. What I've been trying to do is compare the 2 accounts, because they don't exactly jibe. Archuletta heard the hysteria dissipate, the technicians heard the female wailing the 'help me Jesus'. And I admit, I lean towards the operator's version, because she was on the phone at the time, and that version is what worried her enough to report it in the 1st place. moo
Chrishope,
BBM: And how credible are you? Just accept you and DocG have been found out, its that simple. You backed the wrong horse and it came last.
Its not about what I believe its all about the facts, none of which suggest a relocation was planned.
A trial is only a consideration of produced evidence it need not consider all the evidence, evidence that might predujice the accussed could be ommitted, so your hypothetical trial need not include all the evidence, only that which preordaines the result!
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questfortrue
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Dont know if this is relevant or not
The only words I believed I heard after PR left her conversation with the 911 operator were, Help me Jesus, etc. I can believe she may have prayed for help and also changed her tone, this brought on by relief after completing the needed action, the 911 phone call. Once on a snowy highway, a driver behind me in a 4 wheel drive suv was following way too close. Rounding a corner I found two semis jackknifed on the snow-covered road blocking the right and left lanes. I still remember my fear driving through the narrow space between the trucks, and shouting in my own head OMG, OMG." But after completing this maneuver, and with enormous relief I kept saying, God, let me find an exit off this highway, let me get off this highway. Change of tone.
Anti-K
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In the matter of the asphyxiation of Jonbenet, I consider the terms ligature and garrote to be interchangeable. Yes, the cord around the victim’s neck is misnamed; it is not a garrote, but it has been referred to as a garrote as far back as I can remember. It has been referred to as a garrote for so long and with such consistency that I believe referring to it as a garrote is an accepted and legitimate use of the term.
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As I understand it, the “dispute” is indeed over “ligature strangulation.” I may have misunderstood UKGuy, but as I understand it, UKGuy is saying that Jonbenet was not asphyxiated by the cord around her neck (call it whatever you like). Read this post by UKGuy, and tell me that I’m wrong. http://tinyurl.com/pjreg32
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Arguing that it was not a garrote is fine, and it’s a winning argument; but, the fact that it was not a garrote is meaningless as far as the asphyxiation is concerned. She was asphyxiated by the cord found circumferentially embedded in her neck, it simply does not matter what you call it. But, this is not what is being discussed, anyway.
...
AK
Common sense tells us that, but at a time like that, common sense is not on the radar. They could certainly have staged a kidnapping- temporarily hiding her in the winecellar- and not realizing that police would remain at the house until the house was cleared and sealed. When they finally realized police were not going to leave them alone in the house, whatever plans they had for her body, perhaps calling police back and saying she'd been found, delivered, whatever- had to be abandoned. At that point, JR used the first chance he got to "find" her. So yes, to them, they could stage a kidnapping when there had been no kidnapping.
It's easy to see why she would say "help me Jesus". Even with a faked call. Regardless of theories about the events of that night, her daughter was dead- by whose hand did not lessen the horror of the moment, even if it was by her own hand. The "Help me Jesus" is something I can see her saying regardless of complicity in the crime or coverup. And I am sure she was sincere in her prayer. This was an overwhelming catastrophe.
otg
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The only person who could tell you about why something was put in (or left out of) a book is its author.
otg
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I don't know if we know the exact words the 911 operator (Archuletta) used to describe what she heard. My understanding (from Kolar, I think) is that she was so upset about what she heard that she told investigators to listen to it again for something at the end. Did she describe that something as "voices", "words", or "another conversation"? I don't know. But I do know that she heard it first-hand, before she ever heard it on a recording.
As far as the "dissipation" of something, I would again have to know exactly what she was describing. Did she mean Patsy's hysteria had dissipated? (I don't think so -- because to me she seems just as hysterical wailing at the end for Jesus to help her as she did when she said, "I'm the mother. Oh my God. Please.") Or did she mean that the volume of her voice dissipated because she had walked away from the receiver after thinking she had hung it up?