Sunday, 6/9/2013 Radio Show

[Dee10]

At no time did Mark say the poly was incomplete or that he couldn't take it. He said "he failed miserably."

I haven't had a chance yet to go back to what he said about a 2nd one though. I was garbled that I remember. Did anyone write his answer down?

 

[katydid23]

Then what is the point of a preliminary poly to determine if a person can be tested? It's to determine if the person issuing the exam can determine the person's baseline. If there was equal reaction during a prelim test for questions that were truthful as well as the questions the person was instructed to lie on, then a baseline can not be established at all, thus making the person a bad candidate to take a poly, as the results would probably be unreadable. As I said, I could see LE telling him he is taking a poly, they go through the prelim questions, determine he isn't a good candidate, yet telling him he failed the test, even though technically he wasn't given the actual test to begin with.

I don't think so, and the reason is that they could get his baseline instantaneously by the first few questions. I think they had a lot of suspicions concerning him, and they would have surely taken the opportunity to ask him some key questions concerning Dylan's situation. I bat they did ask him if he was involved in any way and if he had any idea of what happened to his son. JMO

We cannot compare ER's treatment by the poly examiner to MR's because they were seen as totally different in the scheme of the investigation. She was probably very emotional and very distraught. And she was nowhere near the 'scene of the crime' so they had less of an urgent need to question her at the time.

 

[Tink56]

Then what is the point of a preliminary poly to determine if a person can be tested? It's to determine if the person issuing the exam can determine the person's baseline. If there was equal reaction during a prelim test for questions that were truthful as well as the questions the person was instructed to lie on, then a baseline can not be established at all, thus making the person a bad candidate to take a poly, as the results would probably be unreadable. As I said, I could see LE telling him he is taking a poly, they go through the prelim questions, determine he isn't a good candidate, yet telling him he failed the test, even though technically he wasn't given the actual test to begin with.

The "real" exam may only be 8-10 questions long. MR only included the baseline questions. Generally the baseline questions are alternated with questions related to the purpose of the test. Here a sample that MIGHT be used...
1. Is your full name MR?
2. Do you have any knowledge of the current whereabouts of DR?
3. Were you born in __________?
4. Did you have any part in the disappearance of DR?
5. Do you currently reside at _____________?

ETC.

A great deal of the preliminary work takes more time including the explanation of the process, etc.

I think MR took the test from his description and inability to recall other questions.

 

[Ghostwheel]

At no time did Mark say the poly was incomplete or that he couldn't take it. He said "he failed miserably."

I haven't had a chance yet to go back to what he said about a 2nd one though. I was garbled that I remember. Did anyone write his answer down?

Fair point. That throws out my "Do you feel well enough to continue." possibility. Bummer.

 

[katydid23]

I met your assumptive response with an assumption. In other words, you put an assumed response, contrary to instruction, to MR. If the students don't learn the material, the problem might be the teacher. Just sayin.

We might be better off assuming the polygrapher was skilled and the examinee understood and followed the rules. We should also take into account that being told "you failed miserably" is the the equivalent of actually failing miserably.

BBM

I agree, but I am surprised you said that.

 

[Tink56]

At no time did Mark say the poly was incomplete or that he couldn't take it. He said "he failed miserably."

I haven't had a chance yet to go back to what he said about a 2nd one though. I was garbled that I remember. Did anyone write his answer down?

I think it may be around 94 minutes. I was going to go back and re-listen myself. (Hope I can read my notes...)

 

[Emma Ems]

You might be right about him not being a good poly candidate. It happens. But he COULD have passed his name, address, DOB, then showed deceptive on the next one, two, x number of questions that might have been involving Dylan.

I have to say, what if, instead of answering with a direct answer on a poly, Mark used his usual word salad. I don't know how anyone could get an accurate reading off of that.

As an example, the following not supposed to be derogatory, it is just how I hear Mark when he talks:

"Did you have anything to do with Dylan's disappearance?"
"Well, you know, I didn't see him when I came home from Durango, and, you know, he wasn't where I left him on the couch, so I thought he'd gone outside for a while. I didn't think anything of it at the time, so I laid down for a bit, you know, because I do that when I have the opportunity..."

How could you get any kind of reading if the answer was like that? In that case, "failed miserably" would make sense.

This thread is moving so fast and my page tends to jump around when I refresh so I missed this.

You would think that if he did that, the examiners would chide him with a "yes or no answer only please." I am having a thought(I read yours and Bayou's comment which is when I realized I missed this post) if a polygrapher(is this even a word or am I making it up?) asks a yes or no question that has the potential in the mind to make a person's mind wonder like say, "Do you know what happened to your son?" It's a simple answer, but I imagine that both parents would have an issue with this question in the state of mind they were in that while they may not know, they may think of possibilities as that question could make the mind wonder to what could have happened and if they got panicky over those possibilities, what would their result be on that particular question?

 

[Chili Fries]

At no time did Mark say the poly was incomplete or that he couldn't take it. He said "he failed miserably."

I haven't had a chance yet to go back to what he said about a 2nd one though. I was garbled that I remember. Did anyone write his answer down?

He said "that ship has sailed", meaning he will not take a second one because he believes at this point it won't do anything to help find Dylan.

 

[sorrell skye]

From the recent radio interview:

MR: "As much as he [Dylan] - people want to believe that he wanted to go be with his friends at 6:30 in the morning ..." (I noticed a stumble in MR's words between "he" and "people").

The thing is: Dylan wanted to go be with his friends the night before, but MR said it was too late. All this crap about how hard it was to get Dylan up early in the morning is purposeful, distracting BS, as far as I'm concerned.

Whatever happened to Dylan, I think happened on Sunday night, and I think MR knows exactly what happened. MR can talk about Monday morning til the cows come home, but I think he's blowing smoke.

 

[asyousay]

He said "that ship has sailed", meaning he will not take a second one because he believes at this point it won't do anything to help find Dylan.

Thank you for clearing this up as I thought LE had told him that ship had sailed .

 

[Emma Ems]

Fair point. That throws out my "Do you feel well enough to continue." possibility. Bummer.

This is where I have issues. If this test was only 4 or 5 questions, I don't think it was the actual polygraph test. Why? Because of something I read a while back, it was kind of a manual for LE on using polygraphs on suspects. I will try to find it again if I can, but it said that it's best to ask a particular question regarding the "suspected crime" in a few different ways and gauge the responses. It mentioned not directly asking the person about the "specific" crime at first, but to ask it without making it seem accusatory and in different ways. It mentioned something about how even an innocent person could have a stress reaction(part of what the test measures) to a question that seems too accusatory(something like that.) It seems the polygraph is a very sensitive process all around and I don't think 4 or 5 questions would do in a situation like this. Has anyone posting on board ever taken a poly before? It would be interesting to see how many questions they were asked on a poly.

 

[katydid23]

This thread is moving so fast and my page tends to jump around when I refresh so I missed this.

You would think that if he did that, the examiners would chide him with a "yes or no answer only please." I am having a thought(I read yours and Bayou's comment which is when I realized I missed this post) if a polygrapher(is this even a word or am I making it up?) asks a yes or no question that has the potential in the mind to make a person's mind wonder like say, "Do you know what happened to your son?" It's a simple answer, but I imagine that both parents would have an issue with this question in the state of mind they were in that while they may not know, they may think of possibilities as that question could make the mind wonder to what could have happened and if they got panicky over those possibilities, what would their result be on that particular question?

BBM
Sure, that does happen. And that is why they do interviews afterwards and often discuss the questions that one might 'fail.' And the might ask the question again. For example, they might say there was an upsurge during the question about you having knowledge concerning the disappearance. Is there something you want to share w/us about that. And then the parent can say ' My mind went to the creepy neighbor next door--and I felt upset.' The examiner can 'clear' the person on that failed question by asking them again, besides the creepy neighbor, do u have any knowledge concerning your child's disappearance? At that point they should be able to pass that question. If not, then it is an issue.

 

[katydid23]

This is where I have issues. If this test was only 4 or 5 questions, I don't think it was the actual polygraph test. Why? Because of something I read a while back, it was kind of a manual for LE on using polygraphs on suspects. I will try to find it again if I can, but it said that it's best to ask a particular question regarding the "suspected crime" in a few different ways and gauge the responses. It mentioned not directly asking the person about the "specific" crime at first, but to ask it without making it seem accusatory and in different ways. It mentioned something about how even an innocent person could have a stress reaction(part of what the test measures) to a question that seems too accusatory(something like that.) It seems the polygraph is a very sensitive process all around and I don't think 4 or 5 questions would do in a situation like this. Has anyone posting on board ever taken a poly before? It would be interesting to see how many questions they were asked on a poly.

I don't believe MR when he says it was only 4 or 5 questions. JMO

I have taken two. One was long because it was for a job interview, and so it covered a lot of bases.

But I took one when I was working somewhere and someone stole $ from the safe, and everyone was asked to take one. [ Even though the owner already knew who took it.]

And there was only about 7 questions, IIRC. The first 3 were pretty much baseline. And the last 4 involved the missing money. Did I know about it, Was I involved, Did I know who was involved, Did I see anyone with the goods?

 

[Ghostwheel]

This is where I have issues. If this test was only 4 or 5 questions, I don't think it was the actual polygraph test. Why? Because of something I read a while back, it was kind of a manual for LE on using polygraphs on suspects. I will try to find it again if I can, but it said that it's best to ask a particular question regarding the "suspected crime" in a few different ways and gauge the responses. It mentioned not directly asking the person about the "specific" crime at first, but to ask it without making it seem accusatory and in different ways. It mentioned something about how even an innocent person could have a stress reaction(part of what the test measures) to a question that seems too accusatory(something like that.) It seems the polygraph is a very sensitive process all around and I don't think 4 or 5 questions would do in a situation like this. Has anyone posting on board ever taken a poly before? It would be interesting to see how many questions they were asked on a poly.

I found this site kind of interesting. http://polygraphinfo.org/FAQs.html

If it is accurate (take it for what you will) it says:
"Research statistics on polygraph accuracy (see above) are all based on a single-question single-issue exam, which is the most accurate format possible. " and
"If you need to cover more than 3 relevant questions or need more than one issue covered, you will have to do more than one exam."

 

[KateNY]

It could be just that the man is lying!
JMO

re^^

Sometimes the simplest answer tends to be the right one...


JMVHO

 

[Emma Ems]

I found this site kind of interesting. http://polygraphinfo.org/FAQs.html

If it is accurate (take it for what you will) it says:
"Research statistics on polygraph accuracy (see above) are all based on a single-question single-issue exam, which is the most accurate format possible. " and
"If you need to cover more than 3 relevant questions or need more than one issue covered, you will have to do more than one exam."

I just saw this too. I was looking for an amount they were asked, but that other thing I was reading mentioned asking a series of questions in different manners. This really has me going hmmmm, since the more questions you ask the more unreliable the test is. This may be a science that I fully do not understand at the end of the day, because I could see someone taking a test being asked, "Did you kill so and so?" and their initial mind thought is, "I didn't do it, I know I didn't do it, do they think I did it," you know total mind freak out. It made sense to me when I read the other thing about trying to "gently" ask the questions in a non accusatory fashion.

Can you imagine though? Did you harm your son? Did you hide your son? How many other questions could they ask for this one instance that would cover all bases of a missing child?

 

[katydid23]

This is where I have issues. If this test was only 4 or 5 questions, I don't think it was the actual polygraph test. Why? Because of something I read a while back, it was kind of a manual for LE on using polygraphs on suspects. I will try to find it again if I can, but it said that it's best to ask a particular question regarding the "suspected crime" in a few different ways and gauge the responses. It mentioned not directly asking the person about the "specific" crime at first, but to ask it without making it seem accusatory and in different ways. It mentioned something about how even an innocent person could have a stress reaction(part of what the test measures) to a question that seems too accusatory(something like that.) It seems the polygraph is a very sensitive process all around and I don't think 4 or 5 questions would do in a situation like this. Has anyone posting on board ever taken a poly before? It would be interesting to see how many questions they were asked on a poly.

There are different kinds of polygraph tests designed for different situations. My son has taken three for various LE jobs. The most recent was for trying to get accepted to LAPD. That test was very very long, because they asked the questions in various ways and covered many many topics, from DV, to drugs, to stealing from employers to *advertiser censored*. It was quite extensive.

But the test for MR that day wouldnt have needed to be more than 6 or 7 questions, imo.

 

[Emma Ems]

Here is what I was reading. http://www.cogsci.umn.edu/colloquia/docs_F12/Iacono_effective_policing.pdf

 

[katydid23]

Here is what I was reading. http://www.cogsci.umn.edu/colloquia/docs_F12/Iacono_effective_policing.pdf

He says in there that each 'phase' of the test is 10 questions long. And they should be done at different times to ensure accuracy. So I think Mark was given an entire test, and was likely 7 to 10 questions long.

When Mark says it was 4 or 5 questions, I am assuming he is leaving out his name and DOB and current address. JMO

 

[ColdHands]

From the Sunday 6/9 radio show starting around 94:12

Tricia: Have you taken an another polygraph with the police. Would you take one if they asked you.

MR - I have taken I have taken a polygraph test when I was asked to do so. I am I am not a person that necessarily believes that a polygraph is going to be the difference maker in what it’s going to take to find our son. Now I believe this is a debate that can be held for days and days and days with absolutely no resolution. The bottom line is I I I don’t think a polygraph test is any more than a a form of junk science. The fact that I was willing to take a polygraph test …which… from the very beginning…. and never wavered form never did said anything I was actually sitting in the office waiting for this person to come back from lunch. so I immediately lef immediately left my home to take this polygraph test. And… I’ll be honest with you, law enforcement has never shared the results of those polygraph tests. I can tell you I can only tell you what I was told by law enforcement. So you know for whatever reason they’ve found they they don’t want to release that information for whatever reason I don’t know. But you know when

Tricia: What did they tell you

MR - They told me I failed miserably. Now … I’m trying to understand what that actually means. I mean there’s only 4-5 questions that they’re asking you on. is it possible that I failed my name. Is it possible I failed my birth date did I fail you know all I mean there’s only 5 questions and you failed it miserably that pretty much tells me that I would have had to fail all 5 questions

Tricia: Mmhm so

MR - Again I think this is a debate that we can have for days and days and days on end and at the end it’s only going to be a debate. Some people believe in them and some people don’t believe in them.

Tricia: Would you take another one if they asked you?

MR - Well I’ll I’ll tell you that kind of came up in this last thing that Elaine and I participated in in the conflict resolution. In my opinion, in law enforcement official that was there and I’m not sure that Elaine didn’t agree, that that ship has sailed.

Tricia - Mmhm Ok so it uh so it wouldn’t be useful at this point, is what you’re feeling

MR - I don’t I don’t think so. I think that a polygraph is only a tool that is used by law enforcement. This is what they’ve reiterated to me over and over and over and over again. It’s only a tool. That being said it’s no different than a carpenter building a house, I mean obviously you gotta have a hammer to do that. It’s only one of many tools that is is important to utilize from whether it be law enforcement’s perspective or a carpenter building a home. It’s not the only tool available and it’s not the only tool that we should be utilizing here.