Tempo Restaurant: What Happened There?

[lateott]

I think regardless of what happened BEFORE JM and Hannah disappeared from any eye witnesses and cameras is not the focus as much as what happened AFTERWARDS.

It's pretty clear Hannah was going willingly with JM Drunk and confused, but not fighting him. In fact so agreeable, that those who noticed her being distressed, backed off when JM was in the picture and walked off with her No one is saying that Hannah was being dragged off.

There is one story that she was so out of it that he was carrying her. That she could barely stand on her own. That hits me as odd, since she is seen very much able to walk on her own, even run. If that could be substantiated, it is possible that she was slipped something that is very fast acting --one beer, JM supposedly bought 2, isn't going to do that so quickly even on top of what she'd had. Not unless something else was added to it Then he just had to help her to his car, which allegedly was parked very near Tempo, and off he'd go.

The other reason, I think this might have happened is because JM's face has no marks on it If Hannah was attacked, coerced, it's likely he'd have marks on his face. I'm sure LE is checking out other body parts too, but I'm betting there was no fight since the face,neck area is usually the target. She's a big strong,young woman and would have fought if he went after her unwanted.

You hit on something my brain is trying to balance.

The video we see with our own eyes, and the physical capabilities that are demonstrated by HG in her march downtown, are contrasted by the hearsay descriptions of her being wasted and incapacitated. I have learned long ago not to trust media reports of just about any detail, quote, or description without verification. So for now, I am going with my own eyes and taking with a grain of salt the info the LE has disclosed (considering the knwon wrong information and the many posts on this board have proposed substantial, deliberate misdirection by LE.)

I highly doubt the "he drugged her" theory. This is speculated way too often for the rarity it happens in the real world, and it is the intellectually easy way out. Such and such happened, he must have slipped her something. I wish posters would substantiate such a theory with something other than throwing it out there because we "can't understand this otherwise."

I will be bold and outline a few points why I think he didn't drug her:

1) He obviously did not need to drug her to make her come along with him on video and over the next 40 minutes.
2) I think it is beyond his intellect (my personal opinion) to think that far ahead, be ready, plan actions later
3) I believe it is outside his normal behavior pattern, as reported. He is well known on that bar scene and if if he tried it unsuccessfully before, we would have heard about it beginning last week. I can't imagine slipping a mickey always or usually works from public place with lots of witnesses.
4) There is no reported evidence supporting this possibility (toxicology, drugs found, residue found, etc.). Admittedly it is early for toxicology of the victim, but the point is that no evidence is no evidence, there is nothing to support that it happened.

So no evidence of drugs. I am confident nobody can poke holes in that without speculating.

I more believe that a couple more drinks on top of what she had earlier, plus crashing after physical activity and lateness, led to the eyewitness description of HG needing help walking at the end of the night. And like I said, it is difficult for me to rectify what I see with my own eyes to the second- and third-hand descriptions of her wastedness.

And no, I am not blaming HG for anything. Just trying to piece together events and understand the truth.

 

[jamicat]

Though there is no absolute proof that Hannah was drunk, LE has stated it outright that she likely was. They get that from what they've gleaned from those at the party she left, those who saw her at the mall. Drunk or otherwise under the influence of something seems to be an accepted fact. Also that she was even more out of control, slumped, needing help was reported, while with JM after Tempo's, though how reliable that report is, has not been substantiated.

Absolutely, JM could have just parted ways with her and she never even got into her car. Maybe someone else she knew pulled up and she went with that person. Maybe he did drop her off where she requested. Maybe she jumped out of the car if he made a pass. All possibilities. People have been railroaded by LE many times.

But usually, it's the simplest scenario that occurs and it seems to me that LE is pretty sure that Hannah did get into JM's car, and that something bad happened to her that involves him. If they come up empty on any evidence, they will have to let JM go. We don't know what LE found in the car, on JM's clothes, in his apartment. Doubt they will release that info. Without Hannah found, it will likely be an uphill fight to get a conviction for anything. Right now it's not at that point LE needs to focus on finding Hannah, finding out what likely happened to her, and keeping anyone who would do such harm away from the general population. With his reckless reactions, JM is probably safer behind bars right now while this is all getting sorted out, than loose.

 

[lateott]

The argument is basically predicated on believing what the doorperson claims she saw.

If she was manning the door she would see who was going in. She claimed that JM was behaving in such a way outside that she took notice of him, so much so that she claimed to remember him when she saw him walk by with HG. And she said she saw him leave earlier, but no mention of him returning. So, if she remembered him from his behavior outside earlier, why would she not have remembered him coming back in if she still remembered him when he left? That does not make sense and suggests that parts of the story are not credible. The question is which parts?

We know that drinks were bought with JM's credit card at around 1:10, but it is also possible that he gave the card to a friend and never actually returned to the restaurant at all.

Alternatively, his car was parked nearby, and he went there to retrieve something before returning to the bar. That would be a reasonable explanation for leaving and then returning shortly afterwards. If that happened then we would have to discount the story told by the doorperson, since he apparently come back past her to get in.

What bothers me is that the time between encountering HG and him returning to the bar is relatively short. It does not leave a whole lot of time for conversation with a stranger, which you would expect to take a decent chunk of time if he somehow befriended her. But there is literally a couple of minutes at most for them to become best buds after being complete strangers. This does not seem very realistic to me unless he already knew her.

Taken all together I am inclined to discount the eye witness accounts. Which would imply that other than passing in the street, the two of them never met or communicated, and that HG never went into or around the restaurant. In that scenario she would have just continued on her way.

It is possible for the doorperson to be 100% credible and for it to fit a reasonable, common sense sequence of events. The key is making small, reasonable assumptions and avoiding large leaps of speculation.

 

[CvilleMother]

Now THAT makes sense as far as WG's actions to me. Just imagining him as WG hanging out on the mall at 1:00 a.m. has not made sense to me...

He's not an ambassador. or, I guess, if he is an ambassador, he was not on duty and was not wearing the uniform assigned to the ambassadors.

 

[distracted]

He's not an ambassador. or, I guess, if he is an ambassador, he was not on duty and was not wearing the uniform assigned to the ambassadors.

The ambassadors wear uniforms while on duty? If so, that makes a difference.

 

[jamicat]

You hit on something my brain is trying to balance.

The video we see with our own eyes, and the physical capabilities that are demonstrated by HG in her march downtown, are contrasted by the hearsay descriptions of her being wasted and incapacitated. I have learned long ago not to trust media reports of just about any detail, quote, or description without verification. So for now, I am going with my own eyes and taking with a grain of salt the info the LE has disclosed (considering the knwon wrong information and the many posts on this board have proposed substantial, deliberate misdirection by LE.)

I highly doubt the "he drugged her" theory. This is speculated way too often for the rarity it happens in the real world, and it is the intellectually easy way out. Such and such happened, he must have slipped her something. I wish posters would substantiate such a theory with something other than throwing it out there because we "can't understand this otherwise."

I will be bold and outline a few points why I think he didn't drug her:

1) He obviously did not need to drug her to make her come along with him on video and over the next 40 minutes.
2) I think it is beyond his intellect (my personal opinion) to think that far ahead, be ready, plan actions later
3) I believe it is outside his normal behavior pattern, as reported. He is well known on that bar scene and if if he tried it unsuccessfully before, we would have heard about it beginning last week. I can't imagine slipping a mickey always or usually works from public place with lots of witnesses.
4) There is no reported evidence supporting this possibility (toxicology, drugs found, residue found, etc.). Admittedly it is early for toxicology of the victim, but the point is that no evidence is no evidence, there is nothing to support that it happened.

So no evidence of drugs. I am confident nobody can poke holes in that without speculating.

I more believe that a couple more drinks on top of what she had earlier, plus crashing after physical activity and lateness, led to the eyewitness description of HG needing help walking at the end of the night. And like I said, it is difficult for me to rectify what I see with my own eyes to the second- and third-hand descriptions of her wastedness.

And no, I am not blaming HG for anything. Just trying to piece together events and understand the truth.

I agree with a lot of what you say. But what bothers me is the report of how incapacitated she was at the very last sighting of her with JM. That could be a bad report. BUt it says she could hardly walk, that JM was carrying her? That just doesn't fit with the Hannah on the tapes and what earlier reports are saying That she was likely "heavily intoxicated" comes from LE and I don't think they say that lightly. I think from what her classmates, those at the party, and those who saw her before she ran into JM pretty much substantiates that as reasonable. Whether it would hold in a court of law is questionable, but it is some info that LE feels describes Hannah at that time enough that they feel that it should be mentioned, even as they caveat that it should not be emphasized.

I don't think anyone is saying JM forced her to go with him, but there is the oddity that he returned to Tempo for 15 letting her wait outside and records show he paid for something then. Two beers is what I read, and another beer is not likely to knock out someone that quickly as it was reported that Hannah was looking right at the end Again, that eye witness might be saying something totally untrue. But if she is telling the truth, something fast acting kicked in, or maybe Hannah just hit her limit and went out.

But I do agree that slipping someone something comes up far more than it should and more than it happens. It's just that JM seemed to be a serial predator of women who could be picked up, and so he might have gotten some goods to help his case.

Even though Hannah was agreeable about going with him, that doesn't mean she'd agree to have sex with him. That's a stretch, IMO. Many people would take a ride , and it seems clear she was lost, tired, and wanted to get somehwere, but a whole other step to agree to having sex with someone who just offered you a ride. Yes, it's possible, but...I don't think it fits well. Something the jury would have to consider.

The thing that puzzles me about this is the lack of any marks on JM's face. She would have fought him, if she could, if she were attacked or if JM made moves she did not want...unless she agreed, or unless she was incapacitated. Which is another reason why I am thinking towards those drugs, again, not a venue of thought I usually take.

Also,because LE added the "Abducted with intent to defile" charge before forensics came out with their first report--FACT, I wonder if it wasn't because something in the car or apt wasn't found to make that charge pretty sold THEORY.

 

[CvilleMother]

The ambassadors wear uniforms while on duty? If so, that makes a difference.

Here is a photo from NBC29 of two of the ambassadors:

http://www.nbc29.com/story/23035369/patrons-employees-weigh-in-on-downtown-mall-ambassadors

 

[jamicat]

Now THAT makes sense as far as WG's actions to me. Just imagining him as WG hanging out on the mall at 1:00 a.m. has not made sense to me...

Any number of reasons why WG was hanging around the mall. He might have been looking for pick ups too. I'm sure LE has gotten the info from him as to where he was that night before and after being caught on video. He might even be on more video. But there is nothing linking him with Hannah after JM went off with her, so it' really doesn't much matter what his motives were for being there. The case would proceed without that guy in the picture. If anything he muddies the water with his off descrip of JM.

 

[Elley Mae]

The whole doorman/doorperson at 1:00 in the morning has me baffled. Do they have a cover charge? Is there a live band that they would charge for? What is a doorman/person there for? just to check ID? It's a restaurant first no? OK A doorman/person at 1:00 really? It's been years since I did the whole bouncing from club to bar to club but what I do remember was that a certain time later in the evening the doorman kinda disappeared. Unless this is something that bars do in Va, have a doorman/person check ID and the bar keep just serves them up, no ID required. idk jmo I know they had a doormen at studio 54 but I thought that was to keep the cops out.

 

[Concerned Mama]

I will be bold and outline a few points why I think he didn't drug her:

1) He obviously did not need to drug her to make her come along with him on video and over the next 40 minutes.
2) I think it is beyond his intellect (my personal opinion) to think that far ahead, be ready, plan actions later
3) I believe it is outside his normal behavior pattern, as reported. He is well known on that bar scene and if if he tried it unsuccessfully before, we would have heard about it beginning last week. I can't imagine slipping a mickey always or usually works from public place with lots of witnesses.
4) There is no reported evidence supporting this possibility (toxicology, drugs found, residue found, etc.). Admittedly it is early for toxicology of the victim, but the point is that no evidence is no evidence, there is nothing to support that it happened.

So no evidence of drugs. I am confident nobody can poke holes in that without speculating.

I more believe that a couple more drinks on top of what she had earlier, plus crashing after physical activity and lateness, led to the eyewitness description of HG needing help walking at the end of the night. And like I said, it is difficult for me to rectify what I see with my own eyes to the second- and third-hand descriptions of her wastedness.

And no, I am not blaming HG for anything. Just trying to piece together events and understand the truth.

You are correct in that there hasn't been anything released to the public that points to JLM slipping something in Hannah's drink. It has all been speculation. But much of that speculation seems to stem from when the warrant for JLM's arrest was upped from reckless driving to abduction with intent to defile. The big question is what led to the "intent to defile" charge. Unless I missed it in my hours upon hours of reading the news and the threads here at WS, we don't know.

I wish I could pinpoint the posts here at WS now, but I'm not savvy enough at searching yet. The user gitana, who is a lawyer, spelled out what would be required for that charge. (It was probably in an older GD thread?). Without knowing if an eyewitness saw HG being forced into a car by JLM, we don't know if she went against her will or not. However, the "intent to defile" charge came after his car and home were searched, making people wonder if something was found that would substantiate the charge.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems like finding something like Ambien or Rohypnol in his car or apartment would justify the charge.

 

[lateott]

The whole doorman/doorperson at 1:00 in the morning has me baffled. Do they have a cover charge? Is there a live band that they would charge for? What is a doorman/person there for? just to check ID? It's a restaurant first no? OK A doorman/person at 1:00 really? It's been years since I did the whole bouncing from club to bar to club but what I do remember was that a certain time later in the evening the doorman kinda disappeared. Unless this is something that bars do in Va, have a doorman/person check ID and the bar keep just serves them up, no ID required. idk jmo I know they had a doormen at studio 54 but I thought that was to keep the cops out.

Don't know for a fact, but I would assume it is the obvious, to keep under aged patrons from going inside. It prevents bartenders from accidentally serving minors. Maybe someone local could comment on whether it is the law for an establishment serving alcohol after the kitchen is closed.

 

[jamicat]

The whole doorman/doorperson at 1:00 in the morning has me baffled. Do they have a cover charge? Is there a live band that they would charge for? What is a doorman/person there for? just to check ID? It's a restaurant first no? OK A doorman/person at 1:00 really? It's been years since I did the whole bouncing from club to bar to club but what I do remember was that a certain time later in the evening the doorman kinda disappeared. Unless this is something that bars do in Va, have a doorman/person check ID and the bar keep just serves them up, no ID required. idk jmo I know they had a doormen at studio 54 but I thought that was to keep the cops out.

From what someone in the area has explained, once the restaurants in the area stop serving meals, and turn into a bar, they do not let anyone under 21 enter them, at least Tempo and that other place, Grady's. No id proving age to be over 21, no entry. Apparently Hannah did not have such id, so she stayed outside of both places. (though there are some conflicting unofficial reports that she might have entered Tempo). Tempo's official stance from their public announcement which is quite thorough says she did not enter Tempo, but stayed outside while JM went in, and she waited for him for a good 15 minutes or so outside of Tempo. There is an interview with someone at Tempo, "Abby" who gives a detailed account of what JM and Hannah 's activities around there were. Again, how accurate they are, we don't know.

But what is clear from all of this, is that they did leave the area together, and Hannah went willingly with him. NO further sightings of either that early morning that LE or MSM has released to us. Hannah is gone and JM has not shared any info that we know as to what happened with the only leak being a third hand report from the Daily Mail saying grandma said JM told his mother that he and Hannah did meet but went separate ways Which in itself is true, with the circumstances of what happened in between left unmentioned.

 

[Elley Mae]

You are correct in that there hasn't been anything released to the public that points to JLM slipping something in Hannah's drink. It has all been speculation. But much of that speculation seems to stem from when the warrant for JLM's arrest was upped from reckless driving to abduction with intent to defile. The big question is what led to the "intent to defile" charge. Unless I missed it in my hours upon hours of reading the news and the threads here at WS, we don't know.

I wish I could pinpoint the posts here at WS now, but I'm not savvy enough at searching yet. The user gitana, who is a lawyer, spelled out what would be required for that charge. (It was probably in an older GD thread?). Without knowing if an eyewitness saw HG being forced into a car by JLM, we don't know if she went against her will or not. However, the "intent to defile" charge came after his car and home were searched, making people wonder if something was found that would substantiate the charge.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems like finding something like Ambien or Rohypnol in his car or apartment would justify the charge.

Still waiting to see or hear what it is. So far as I know it was probable cause.

...................................


The capture came less than a full day after Charlottesville Police Chief Timothy Longo announced that authorities had probable cause to arrest Matthew on charges of abduction with intent to defile Hannah Graham, an 18-year-old sophomore who went missing on Sept. 13 in Charlottesville.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/0...udent-hannah-graham-still-missing-107502.html

 

[ninij9]

Now THAT makes sense as far as WG's actions to me. Just imagining him as WG hanging out on the mall at 1:00 a.m. has not made sense to me...

If WG was a part of the downtown mall ambassador program for safety it was an epic fail.

 

[lateott]

You are correct in that there hasn't been anything released to the public that points to JLM slipping something in Hannah's drink. It has all been speculation. But much of that speculation seems to stem from when the warrant for JLM's arrest was upped from reckless driving to abduction with intent to defile. The big question is what led to the "intent to defile" charge. Unless I missed it in my hours upon hours of reading the news and the threads here at WS, we don't know.

I wish I could pinpoint the posts here at WS now, but I'm not savvy enough at searching yet. The user gitana, who is a lawyer, spelled out what would be required for that charge. (It was probably in an older GD thread?). Without knowing if an eyewitness saw HG being forced into a car by JLM, we don't know if she went against her will or not. However, the "intent to defile" charge came after his car and home were searched, making people wonder if something was found that would substantiate the charge.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems like finding something like Ambien or Rohypnol in his car or apartment would justify the charge.

Really excellent points. The probable cause supporting intent to defile is still a mystery outside LE. I hoped to develop a refined list filtered by how solid the support would be, but got no takers on a previous post.

To follow up the specifics: (acknowledging you said, "something like")

-Rohypnol is not sold in the U.S., so unlikely in the car or house.
-Ambien in the car, yes, nobody needs Ambien in their car. Ambien in a medicine cabinet in the house? I don't think it supports the warrant.

Again, I don't see it fitting his approach which includes twirling girls above his head and taking off their socks, and otherwise being crazy and obnoxious and inappropriate.

 

[jamicat]

You are correct in that there hasn't been anything released to the public that points to JLM slipping something in Hannah's drink. It has all been speculation. But much of that speculation seems to stem from when the warrant for JLM's arrest was upped from reckless driving to abduction with intent to defile. The big question is what led to the "intent to defile" charge. Unless I missed it in my hours upon hours of reading the news and the threads here at WS, we don't know.

I wish I could pinpoint the posts here at WS now, but I'm not savvy enough at searching yet. The user gitana, who is a lawyer, spelled out what would be required for that charge. (It was probably in an older GD thread?). Without knowing if an eyewitness saw HG being forced into a car by JLM, we don't know if she went against her will or not. However, the "intent to defile" charge came after his car and home were searched, making people wonder if something was found that would substantiate the charge.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems like finding something like Ambien or Rohypnol in his car or apartment would justify the charge.

I agree, though I think the charge might have been added that Chief Longo found it as a possibility to run by the DA. Longo went to law school, so he would be familiar with the charges. He said right out in an interview that it was the DA's office's decision not to arrest and charge JM when they had him both times within arms length. Not enough evidence for DA to give the "go" signal. This charge seems to fit well, by the way.

If LE has nothing more than evidence that Hannah was in JM's car, or even that they had sex, it's going to be a problem putting much of a case together against him. All he has to say is that she wanted to be let out afterwards and he did as he was asked, that any and everything was consensual. So a lot rides on the forensic evidence and whether Hannah is found, and what evidence is found on her when she is. Though, JM's behavior is erratic, I don't think it's proof positive of killing or harming her.

 

[lateott]

From what someone in the area has explained, once the restaurants in the area stop serving meals, and turn into a bar, they do not let anyone under 21 enter them, at least Tempo and that other place, Grady's. No id proving age to be over 21, no entry. Apparently Hannah did not have such id, so she stayed outside of both places. (though there are some conflicting unofficial reports that she might have entered Tempo). Tempo's official stance from their public announcement which is quite thorough says she did not enter Tempo, but stayed outside while JM went in, and she waited for him for a good 15 minutes or so outside of Tempo. There is an interview with someone at Tempo, "Abby" who gives a detailed account of what JM and Hannah 's activities around there were. Again, how accurate they are, we don't know.

But what is clear from all of this, is that they did leave the area together, and Hannah went willingly with him. NO further sightings of either that early morning that LE or MSM has released to us. Hannah is gone and JM has not shared any info that we know as to what happened with the only leak being a third hand report from the Daily Mail saying grandma said JM told his mother that he and Hannah did meet but went separate ways Which in itself is true, with the circumstances of what happened in between left unmentioned.

Tempo did not say the bold part. Why do you believe that is true? Doesn't seem likely to me.

 

[otto]

I thought she was looking for another drink- tried to get into another pub or two? It happens, people go on a tear, and don't know when to stop. I remember drinking underage, and not knowing where the next beer would come from - and not wanting to stop till closing myself.
And yep, predators look for the drunk girls, especially those with no friends watching out for them.

I initially believed that Hannah was looking for the second party and got lost, but now I think that the first party was the dinner at the Fig Bistro and Bar, and the second party was at Camden Plaza Apts. Someone offered to walk her home at 11:50PM, but she declined. Instead of heading home, she went to McGrady's Pub on Grady St. In the video, it looks like she walked up on the East side of the building, walked around the patio, cut through the space between the building and the patio, and then headed East on Preston Ave towards the Pedestrian Mall. There are several signs on Preston Ave. indicating the directions for the University, and the Pedestrian Mall. I too now wonder if she was in that head space (party is over, but she wanted to party some more) where she'd had a few beer, and wanted one more.

If Jesse asked her if she wanted another beer, that is probably the reason she went with him to Tempo. If she was completely incapacitated when she left that bar, I'm inclined to believe that something was slipped into her drink.

 

[distracted]

Because LE has a witness who places HG in the bar, I'm going to assume she found a way inside somehow. While I'm not completely discounting the possibility that she was roofied, it occurs to me that if she drank both drinks, if he offered all or part of his to her, she would likely be drunk by the time they left. Two drinks in a short amount of time, coupled with being tired, might explain the reports that she was drunk and was leaning on him when they walked away from the bar.

 

[LI-Mom]

You are correct in that there hasn't been anything released to the public that points to JLM slipping something in Hannah's drink. It has all been speculation. But much of that speculation seems to stem from when the warrant for JLM's arrest was upped from reckless driving to abduction with intent to defile. The big question is what led to the "intent to defile" charge. Unless I missed it in my hours upon hours of reading the news and the threads here at WS, we don't know.

I wish I could pinpoint the posts here at WS now, but I'm not savvy enough at searching yet. The user gitana, who is a lawyer, spelled out what would be required for that charge. (It was probably in an older GD thread?). Without knowing if an eyewitness saw HG being forced into a car by JLM, we don't know if she went against her will or not. However, the "intent to defile" charge came after his car and home were searched, making people wonder if something was found that would substantiate the charge.

Pure speculation on my part, but it seems like finding something like Ambien or Rohypnol in his car or apartment would justify the charge.

http://wtvr.com/2014/09/24/dont-assume-there-is-irrefutable-dna-evidence-against-jesse-matthew/

"“Probable cause is a pretty easy burden to meet,” said CBS 6 Legal Analyst Todd Stone, “it doesn’t take much.

The public shouldn’t assume investigators have obtained irrefutable forensic DNA evidence to get Matthew convicted on this charge, according to Stone.

“There needs to be some evidence,” Stone said. “It’s not at the level needed to prove guilt, but it could be something as simple as some of her clothing being left at that apartment.”

Stone believes charging Matthew with this felony may be a tactical move to put Matthew behind bars and keep him there during this investigation."

As far as I understand, it's a low bar. Maybe just the fact that she was last seen with JM and a friend saying he looked to score with women at the mall is enough probable cause. IDK. They obviously wanted him behind bars while continuing the investigation, but if he isn't the right culprit then the real guy is still out there on the street and that concerns me.

I read another article that said that when offering a large reward while a possible suspect is being held in jail it implies more than one person is involved, but I've never heard that before. Unless that's a tactical move too. LE can claim the reward never brought any other suspects to the forefront of the investigation while they focused on JM.