The case for murder, #2

[STS-135]

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth - persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

John F. Kennedy

 

[screecher]

So. STS-135, exactly what are you saying?

"...myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

Enlighten me. Be specific. What myth are you posting about?

Thank you.

 

[LoveAlways7]

Everyone has such great input and analysis here

IMO there is more than one person that XZ should have a protective order against!!!!

Just throwing something out there... me personally, I don't think the s kids were in the house when Max was injured.

But lets say they were... is it possible they were hustled over to Dina's house, and Dina told not to answer the door until given the all clear to?

That would explain why she didn't answer the door.. and call me a sheeple, but if the police are banging on my door, I answer. Unless they have a red light ticket, then I don't answer HA

 

[LoveAlways7]

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth - persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

John F. Kennedy

Quite ironic, if that's a quote by John F Kennedy... wouldn't you say.

Hahahah! no death is more shrouded in myth than the death of John F Kennedy.

I must add... it isn't exactly the truth, considering that the lie is the ONLY enemy of the truth... absence of the lie = the truth. But that is a very seductive suggestion. Myth actually requires thought... because the best myth is cloaked in half truths and.... ahahaha LIES!

 

[K_Z]

Just throwing something out there... me personally, I don't think the s kids were in the house when Max was injured.

But lets say they were... is it possible they were hustled over to Dina's house, and Dina told not to answer the door until given the all clear to?

That would explain why she didn't answer the door.. and call me a sheeple, but if the police are banging on my door, I answer. Unless they have a red light ticket, then I don't answer HA

Snipped by me.

Ok. So, using this theory, we are supposed to believe/ imagine that Dina cared more for KJ's and Jonah's children than her own?? That she would "cover" for the KJ/ JS kids to the detriment of her own son?? Really??

I don't think so. No way. Max was Dina's entire world. She has said that over and over, and I believe her. She loved and cherished him. IMO, she would not set Max's interests aside in favor of the KJ/ JS kids. There is nothing in that scenario for her, or Max. Why would she do such a thing?? Preposterous.

I think there is another explanation for why Dina didn't answer the door to police for many hours on the day of Max's accident. I personally believe she was "self- medicated", or hung over to such an extreme that she was unwilling, or unable, to answer her door to police. And enjoying the company of her BF. That's my opinion. Moooooooooooo......:cow:

No way would she sacrifice her only son on the altar of the ex-wife's kids. IMO.

Nice try at another idea, though.

 

[LoveAlways7]

What if she was not given an explanation... just... keep the kids, don't answer the door... ?

Okay, yeah... pretty improbable.

four hours of ignoring the police while banging the headboard... nice :floorlaugh:

I'm a little jealous :-/

In the luxury vacation home your ex husband paid for.... PRICELESS

***note to Dina*** get a guard dog, and have all your food tested for you before you eat it

 

[K_Z]

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth - persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

John F. Kennedy

Dueling quotes gets us nowhere in the ongoing discussion, IMO. So, I'm not going to volley an obtuse quote back.

You are among friends here. No need to speak in riddles! I can't speak for anyone else, but to me, it seems we are all pretty intellectually able to understand bluntness. Please be blunt, so that you are not misunderstood. What are you trying to say? Because I can think of a number of interpretations of your quote, as it relates to this case, and I'd hate to misinterpret what you were trying to impart. KWIM?

 

[Carioca]

My guess is that KJ didn't like Dina being around her 2 children. Why else would Dina use a different name and hide her true identity from the children?

When a married man who has a 2 year old child and his wife is 6 or 7 months pregnant with their second child and he is having an affair, IMO he would be hiding the affair more from his wife than his little child. Using a code name for the mistress would make it that much harder for the wife to discover the mistress' identity through detectives or online sleuthing, and prevent any possible stalking of mistress by wife. And using a four-letter code name makes it a lot easier for unfaithful husband to remember, right? Just saying...

 

[Carioca]

K_Z and Lash, Posts #136, #139 and #140: B-R-I-L-L-I-A-N-T!
:gthanks:
:yourock:

 

[Carioca]

What if she was not given an explanation... just... keep the kids, don't answer the door... ?

Okay, yeah... pretty improbable.

four hours of ignoring the police while banging the headboard... nice :floorlaugh:

I'm a little jealous :-/

In the luxury vacation home your ex husband paid for.... PRICELESS

***note to Dina*** get a guard dog, and have all your food tested for you before you eat it

BBM :floorlaugh:

IF the teens were hidden away when Max fell, the Spreckels guest house and garage apartment or HL's house would have served just fine. IF they were involved, IMO keeping the facts from DMFRS would have been as paramount as keeping the facts from whatever unwanted, inconvenient potential media coverage. JMO

 

[Inparadise]

BBM :floorlaugh:

IF the teens were hidden away when Max fell, the Spreckels guest house and garage apartment or HL's house would have served just fine. IF they were involved, IMO keeping the facts from DMFRS would have been as paramount as keeping the facts from whatever unwanted, inconvenient potential media coverage. JMO

And the fact that the teens have not been permitted to have contact with DS since max's accident supports this........IMO of course.

 

[Serpico]

And the fact that the teens have not been permitted to have contact with DS since max's accident supports this........IMO of course.

This is just one more CLOUD in this Death Case. We have learned in the last 2 years that Sheriff Gore cannot be trusted with the TRUTH and he does withhold
evidence that would hurt/diminish his Thompson/Gore Suicide Package.

This MAX investigation on this topic alone could be potentially paramount to RZ Case IF in fact that Jonah's other two children were present during Max's fall.Sheriff Gore could've quieted this speculation for 2 years now by RELEASING the date/time of flight/ destination of both children's flight out of Lindbergh Field Airport. Why does an ex FBI field agent conduct his investigation in such secrecy? This could fall into the same Gore "GAFFES".....Adam PASSED his polygraph - DINA was identified on the Rady Security tapes - Science solved this case - Rebecca listened to Jonah's voice phone message at 12:50 am detailing Max's GRAVE condition and was so distraught she decided to BOUND -GAG and HANG herself nude from the 2nd floor balcony without waking up Adam - Door Message was initially "leaked" as potential suicide message - Continues to withhold key evidence from Zahau family - Allowed the nude body
to be fully exposed for over 13 hours while HIS personnel was in charge of the case and never apologized to the Zahau family and the Coronado community.

 

[Serpico]

Tomorrow is the 2nd Anniversary of the most PHONY Press Conferences in Law Enforcement history. The holiday - planned Press Conference features Sheriff William Gore as the puppet master,a woman named later as SDSO female officer displaying an EDITED rope knot exhibition to convince everyone that RZ did all this by herself, a few SDSO detectives just following the Suicide Package, brash ME Dr. Jonathan Lucas.

The following KEY PLAYERS that were ABSENT were lead detective in the RZ case...Detective Angela Tsuida and Sheriff's Advisor, former SDSO Crime Lab boss and former Assistant SD DA to JS Attorney Paul Pfingst....none other than Greg Thompson. Paul Redden who gave Adam Shacknai was also absent.

I wish I taped that PC to look back once again at the SHAME of SDSO for such a farce on Sept. 2, 2011.

 

[cynic]

Tomorrow is the 2nd Anniversary of the most PHONY Press Conferences in Law Enforcement history. The holiday - planned Press Conference features Sheriff William Gore as the puppet master,a woman named later as SDSO female officer displaying an EDITED rope knot exhibition to convince everyone that RZ did all this by herself, a few SDSO detectives just following the Suicide Package, brash ME Dr. Jonathan Lucas.

The following KEY PLAYERS that were ABSENT were lead detective in the RZ case...Detective Angela Tsuida and Sheriff's Advisor, former SDSO Crime Lab boss and former Assistant SD DA to JS Attorney Paul Pfingst....none other than Greg Thompson. Paul Redden who gave Adam Shacknai was also absent.

I wish I taped that PC to look back once again at the SHAME of SDSO for such a farce on Sept. 2, 2011.

It is available at the following links:
http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/
http://vimeo.com/28771010#at=0

 

[IQuestion]

Tomorrow is the 2nd Anniversary of the most PHONY Press Conferences in Law Enforcement history. The holiday - planned Press Conference features Sheriff William Gore as the puppet master,a woman named later as SDSO female officer displaying an EDITED rope knot exhibition to convince everyone that RZ did all this by herself, a few SDSO detectives just following the Suicide Package, brash ME Dr. Jonathan Lucas.

The following KEY PLAYERS that were ABSENT were lead detective in the RZ case...Detective Angela Tsuida and Sheriff's Advisor, former SDSO Crime Lab boss and former Assistant SD DA to JS Attorney Paul Pfingst....none other than Greg Thompson. Paul Redden who gave Adam Shacknai was also absent.

I wish I taped that PC to look back once again at the SHAME of SDSO for such a farce on Sept. 2, 2011.

SERPICO So nice to have you on board! I can not stand the thought of you missing out on the opportunity to watch the Sept. 2, 2011 video. You can view the entire "episode" at this link. http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/
I knew it would be a "doozy" as soon as Sherf G said "science is not biased, science does not lie" because it was an erroneous thing to state.
Any high school sophomore will tell you, FAULTY DATA = FAULTY CONCLUSIONS. Even more ironic...a paid, female member of law enforcement, with "pre-cut rope", gingerly ties her hands behind her back...and by the way....THE ONLY FEMALE INVOLVEMENT and NON-SPEAKING ROLE in the press conference.
The "true science" would be in the re-inactor to not only tie hands behind back, but also feet, tie a gag tightly around their mouth and then hop to a balcony and fling themselves over the railing with "only one toe print" showing!! And of course with no practice, and must get it right the FIRST time.
(and of course using safety equipment!)

 

[Serpico]

Thanks Cynic and IQuestion -

SDSO cut off video in time for questions. This was the bad sequel to The Sting starring Paul Neuman and Robert Redford.

Some lowlights:
-------------------
1-Gore - "normally we wouldn't comment on an investigation of this nature." Why not Gore...you're a PUBLIC servant.
2-Gore -"science is our BEST witness." No Gore, your SELECTIVE science was YOUR best rationale for your suicide package.
3- Gore - mentioned great use of bio-mechanics.....say what?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sgt.Nemeth- he wouldn't even show the MESSAGE on the door.....what a bunch of phony's.
Sgt.Nemeth - investigation produced witness (JS) that a phone message that RZ picked up at 12:50am was about Max's GRAVE condition and soon death.To this day that statement by Jonah has yet to be confirmed.
Sgt.Nemeth - talks about Adam cutting down RZ using patio table but doesn't mention HOW they both got off the table and WHY the table top didn't show dirt spots from BOTH Adam and Rebecca.
Sgt.Nemeth- both doors were OPEN at the time of incident......how did you arrive at that conclusion Nemeth?
Sgt.Nemeth- witness (RZ sister) said back in January (7 months earlier) RZ was losing weight and depressed. Nemeth is grasping for straws...first he's trying to sell the hearsay voice message about Max's GRAVE condition as her reason for suicide and now he's trying to "sell" her depression 7 months earlier yet RZ was not under doctor care or taking any prescription drugs.
Sgt. Nemeth - now takes off his glasses to tell his audience the following....we believe the rope came from the shelf in the garage because there was an empty space that could've been where it was placed. However, Nemeth failed to mention there were NO footprints,fingerprints, DNA on the garage door or inside the garage.
Sgt.Nemeth - discusses the rope only had Rebecca's DNA but where was Adam's if he cut her down? Where's RZ blood on the rope...her fingers were cut.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ME Dr. Jonathan Lucas - what a little gopher.I could blast every statement he made including his statement..."no evidence of struggle or sexual assault", no mention of blood on her body nor the 4 red abrasions on the top of her scalp or how about the many abrasions on RZ back with NO PHOTOS but a picture of the plants beneath the balcony to suggest that's where the abrasions came from -SCIENCE AT ITS FINEST......then he says,"her dirty feet were consistent of standing on the balcony"...oh my - what a farce......there should a FEDERAL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION after this Coronado Charade.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ZAHAU FAMILY .....Please release the following to the media/public:
1- complete AS polygraph with Paul Redden
2- AS interview with SDSO
3-JS,NR,DS interviews with SDSO investigators.
4- documents from Rady Hospital that show Dr. Peterson confirmed JS-GRAVE voice message statement or was JS statement all that was needed for Thompson/Gore.
5- Security tapes at Rady Hospital.
6- ALL blood results.
7-ADT Security interview transcripts and why security wasn't working.
8-pictures of RZ's back with all the abrasions.

 

[cynic]

Cynic - have you formed an opinion on how RZ soles of her feet were so caked in dirt/mud?
Also, from the 3 legged patio table photos shown.... there doesn't appear to be any dirt/mud atop the table yet you have RZ with dirty soles on both feet and Adam had enough dirt to leave footprints in the hallway leading to the kitchen.....I wish the Zahau family would release the full polygraph test with Paul Redden and any interview Adam did that morning with SDSO detectives.

I don’t necessarily like the word “caked,” but her feet did look very dirty.
There is enough dirt there to rule out the balcony as the source from what I can see.
(I know I’ve had some lengthy absences from the case but to the best of my recollection there were no dirty footprints found in the house.
One obvious possibility is the soil in which the numerous plants were growing near where RZ was found hanging. We have no description of the mechanics of what AS did precisely with RZ from the moment he allegedly cut her down to when she was placed on the grass.
I also wish the Zahau family would release any relevant information regarding AS.
It's amazing that someone with his expertise in knots wasn't VERY thoroughly investigated.

 

[cynic]

Thanks for the medical and forensic references. I'll just cut to the chase. Are you saying that there *IS* lividity and livor mortis shown in Rebecca's lower legs

There is considerable lividity present in the lower legs, which is surprising given the remarks made by Lucas at the November 16, 2011 press conference which caused siginificant confusion.
What we see in the picture of RZ’s legs is consistent with a body that has been suspended, or any scenario in which the legs would have been low enough to allow for blood to accumulate under the influence of gravity. A sitting position would have also allowed for what we see there, for example.

and therefore she *WAS* indeed hanging when she died?

The livor mortis would say nothing about the position in which she died, it would only speak to the fact that a period of time elapsed subsequent to her death during which she was in a position in which a significant amount of blood pooling occurred in the legs.

Or are you saying it's a *relative* phenomenon and therefore, the lividity and livor mortis does not indicate with any certainty whether Rebecca was hanging for a long time

There are commonly quoted “average” times for lividity to develop as well as become fixed, but studies have shown that there can be a considerable range.
Therefore, not only is the suggestion by LE of about 3 - 4 hours of hanging feasible, so is 6 hours, for example, or to go in the other direction, 2 hours is feasible.

vs. the fact that her body might have been moved and the lividity and livor mortis then changed due to her altered body positions after she was cut down by Adam and potentially moved by Adam and other EMS/LE/ME personnel?

As we all know, she was on her back for some 13 hours which accounts for the livor that is visible in her back. Had she remained suspended, livor would have been most pronounced in the lower legs and feet as well as lower arms and hands; it would not have been present in her back.
As the body was moved to a horizontal position some of the blood resettled and livor was noticeable in her back. There would have been residual lividity from hanging that would be noticeable as well.
The right leg lower was in a position that would have made a shift in livor impossible as it would have had to move against gravity.



Lividity from hanging:

 

[bourne]

Thanks Cynic. Appreciate your scientific expertise. So there are signs Rebecca was hanging.

Do you think she was manually strangled and then hanged? Did she die from the hanging or manual strangulation?

Do you think if her murderer wore gloves that there would be no signs on Rebecca's neck of manual strangulation?

Some have postulated that Rebecca might have been tied to a chair and died in that position. What's your thought on this?

Do you think the dirt under Rebecca's feet could be from Adam cutting her down and Rebecca then temporarily was "standing" upright on her feet? I don't see that happening. There was too much dirt all over her feet including in between the toes to be from a temporary standing position. From all the dirt around her toes and feet, it looks to me she was running around in the courtyard dirt which suggests to me she was likely running away from someone (e.g., her murderers).

 

[Serpico]

Thanks Cynic. Appreciate your scientific expertise. So there are signs Rebecca was hanging.

Do you think she was manually strangled and then hanged? Did she die from the hanging or manual strangulation?

Do you think if her murderer wore gloves that there would be no signs on Rebecca's neck of manual strangulation?

Some have postulated that Rebecca might have been tied to a chair and died in that position. What's your thought on this?

Do you think the dirt under Rebecca's feet could be from Adam cutting her down and Rebecca then temporarily was "standing" upright on her feet? I don't see that happening. There was too much dirt all over her feet including in between the toes to be from a temporary standing position. From all the dirt around her toes and feet, it looks to me she was running around in the courtyard dirt which suggests to me she was likely running away from someone (e.g., her murderers).

Rebecca's dirty feet MOST LIKELY came from outside....no mention of dirt on carpet. This is why I'd like to know from the housekeepers when the courtyard SPRINKLERS went on each week. I can't fathom a scenario where RZ got that much dirt from being cut down because the patio table was on the cement walkway.
There must be crime scene photos of backyard that we haven't seen and Ann Rule didn't publish.