The case for murder

[Mrs. Holmes]

You don't think a reenactment of the balcony railing smudge test would be valuable to the Zahaus?

I am sure the Zahau team will be all over this at some point. I would like to Volunteer Gore himself show us how RZ went over the railing on her own and left so much dust behind. :floorlaugh:

I didn't realize dust on RZ's hip was in evidence. I still wonder if and this is painful to think about.... IMHO

if RZ had been hit on the head and then choked (with the t-shirt) it may have seemed to the perpetrator(s) that she was dead and RZ may even have had neck damage but she still maybe have been alive.... and then lifted over the railing and hanged to death.

I am still skeptical about the time of death. I am also still skeptical about JS and DS whereabouts. Unless JS was on camera the whole time I will not rule him out. What if JS does choke RZ at the mansion earlier in the evening and RZ is unconscious but mistaken for dead... the hanging cover up is then completed at a later time by AS? In fact knowing what had occurred at the mansion JS may have very purposely made sure he was seen on camera when he went back to the hospital. Exactly where was JS until 1AM is what I want to know. We know AS and DS most probably met up at the hospital at 1AM. Either one of them or both could have been part of RZ's demise earlier at the mansion and then AS could have been left to finish RZ off.

Again, JS having this iron clad alibi is crap....being seen a couple of times on camera only pinpoints his whereabouts.

How do we know JS and DS didn't got together back to the mansion to get answers? Maybe they are doing their "separate" this to throw off suspicion? And what loving brother with a law background let's his brother take a lie detector test.. ??? no lawyer worth his salt let's his client take a lie detector test. Either JS suspected AS and wanted answers or he hung his brother out to dry... albeit.... grief could have clouded a great deal of this.

 

[*Lash*]

Just an FYI, the "foot in the door" post I made was not about this website. Not about WS. I was referring to the website we have come to know through many, many ways. The website became more popular when it was used as reference material in Dina's expert Melinek's report. The initials are LHK. I'm sorry for any poster who may have thought I was referring to this website. Sadly, paranoia does run deep in this case in many ways.

 

[*Lash*]

You don't think a reenactment of the balcony railing smudge test would be valuable to the Zahaus?

I think any reenactment would be helpful to the Zahau's. In my opinion, it would be more valuable than the reenactment our government gave them or should I say didn't give them.

 

[bourne]

I am sure the Zahau team will be all over this at some point. I would like to Volunteer Gore himself show us how RZ went over the railing on her own and left so much dust behind. :floorlaugh:

I didn't realize dust on RZ's hip was in evidence. I still wonder if and this is painful to think about.... IMHO

if RZ had been hit on the head and then choked (with the t-shirt) it may have seemed to the perpetrator(s) that she was dead and RZ may even have had neck damage but she still maybe have been alive.... and then lifted over the railing and hanged to death.

I am still skeptical about the time of death. I am also still skeptical about JS and DS whereabouts. Unless JS was on camera the whole time I will not rule him out. What if JS does choke RZ at the mansion earlier in the evening and RZ is unconscious but mistaken for dead... the hanging cover up is then completed at a later time by AS? In fact knowing what had occurred at the mansion JS may have very purposely made sure he was seen on camera when he went back to the hospital. Exactly where was JS until 1AM is what I want to know. We know AS and DS most probably met up at the hospital at 1AM. Either one of them or both could have been part of RZ's demise earlier at the mansion and then AS could have been left to finish RZ off.

Again, JS having this iron clad alibi is crap....being seen a couple of times on camera only pinpoints his whereabouts.

How do we know JS and DS didn't got together back to the mansion to get answers? Maybe they are doing their "separate" this to throw off suspicion? And what loving brother with a law background let's his brother take a lie detector test.. ??? no lawyer worth his salt let's his client take a lie detector test. Either JS suspected AS and wanted answers or he hung his brother out to dry... albeit.... grief could have clouded a great deal of this.

JS' alibi is much more solid than "cellphone triangulation" of bizarro, melodramatic, narcissistic, psycho ex-wife Dina's.

 

[bourne]

I think any reenactment would be helpful to the Zahau's. In my opinion, it would be more valuable than the reenactment our government gave them or should I say didn't give them.

I'm wondering why with all the advanced computer simulations that uses physics and precise math calculations they couldn't re-create one of both Rebecca's murder hanging and Max's fall accurately?

I recall back in graduate school even decades ago we used computer models all the time. And math and science are the most accurate in analyzing crime scenes.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

JS' alibi is much more solid than "cellphone triangulation" of bizarro, melodramatic, narcissistic, psycho ex-wife Dina's.

A psychopath and a psycho..... the two of them.... who knows?:scared:

 

[coastal]

JS' alibi is much more solid than "cellphone triangulation" of bizarro, melodramatic, narcissistic, psycho ex-wife Dina's.

Tell us how you really feel, bourne!

 

[*Lash*]

Tell us how you really feel, bourne!

Coastal, don't tempt Bourne! We don't want Bourne on a TO or the thread to be closed!

:trainwreck:​

 

[K_Z]

Ok-- STS, I have a sincere question for you, based on your chair theory.

If you think Rebecca died tied to the wicker chair (and yes, I have seen the impressions on her calves), then how do you explain the autopsy evidence of significant hemorrhage in the SCM muscle, that was nearly torn in half, and the torn and hemorrhagic infrahyoid muscles? (As well as the vascular and laryngeal damage.) Those muscles are not torn by garrote or manual strangulation. The only explanation for that level of damage in that pattern is a hanging drop while the heart continues to beat.

I believe the evidence indicates she was either "stunned" by head blows, or was partially strangled to unconsciousness before being tossed over the railing with a still-beating heart. That is what the autopsy evidence says to me (and the other docs I ran it past when I wrote my original analyses of Max and Rebecca's autopsies for THM).

 

[STS-135]

Ok-- STS, I have a sincere question for you, based on your chair theory.

If you think Rebecca died tied to the wicker chair (and yes, I have seen the impressions on her calves), then how do you explain the autopsy evidence of significant hemorrhage in the SCM muscle, that was nearly torn in half, and the torn and hemorrhagic infrahyoid muscles? (As well as the vascular and laryngeal damage.) Those muscles are not torn by garrote or manual strangulation. The only explanation for that level of damage in that pattern is a hanging drop while the heart continues to beat.

I believe the evidence indicates she was either "stunned" by head blows, or was partially strangled to unconsciousness before being tossed over the railing with a still-beating heart. That is what the autopsy evidence says to me (and the other docs I ran it past when I wrote my original analyses of Max and Rebecca's autopsies for THM).

A search of the forum's 'archive' would no doubt reveal some posts from those who can explain how it is in fact possible. But here is where they were probably quoting from: Encyclopedia of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 3, pp. 27-32. WARNING: Illustrated with actual and very graphic photos.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VY...ge Sternocleidomastoid muscle causes?&f=false

Thank you.

p.s. My sincere apologies to you and all for my emotional outburst. Both cases, Rebecca's and Maxie's, reek of incompetence and even callousness on the part of LE. And, having been there and lived it, I am finding it a bit difficult to overcome the pain sometimes. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[STS-135]

Have we been over this?

So, Rebecca died from asphyxiation by hanging, right? What about the rigor in her legs holding them in a bent position. Can some of you with medical knowledge chime in again? I'm trying to work out scenarios where it is possible that her legs formed rigor in that position and the lividity was on her back (IIRC).

Is it possible she was hanged but then soon after placed in some different position where rigor and lividity set, then she was moved before she was found and/or before 911 was called? I know early on we had long conversations about her possibly being hog tied also or tied to a chair.

Was Wecht's conclusion basically that she died by hanging, but was not dropped from the balcony?

Were you thinking perhaps she might've been sitting down when she died?

 

[STS-135]

Google "used dryer sheets and fingerprints."

I think the used dryer sheet and gloves are part of the taunting nature of the crime scene. What idiot criminal would leave that at the scene? Mocking, imo.

IMHO the dryer sheet was merely clinging to the bedspread and had nothing to do with the crime scene. What seems really odd to me, however, is that apparently it wasn't collected as possible evidence when it's lying right between two knives. Doesn't that seem very odd to you too?

 

[STS-135]

IMHO the dryer sheet was merely clinging to the bedspread and had nothing to do with the crime scene. What seems really odd to me, however, is that apparently it wasn't collected as possible evidence when it's lying right between two knives. Doesn't that seem very odd to you too?

Just noticed that my post, regarding how the impressions on Rebecca's left calf and also her forearm IMHO point to having died while being tied to the chair, has been deleted. So I thought to post a summary of the on-topic content of an otherwise rather long post. Sorry about that.

In a nut shell, to me it looks like the impressions were made by the chair, but only a small portion of the chair is visible so it's really hard to see. Also zoom in on the bedspread and let me know if you don't also see what appears to be a footprint on it on the lower right hand portion. And possibly also either spotting by some kind of liquid, or partial footprints.

If you make sure you have an actual photo, not just the thumbnail, I can see things more clearly when I play with my brightness and contrast settings as I swivel my high-res laptop display back and fort to change the angle. When I do this, BTW, I can also see quite a few more footprints on the balcony. IMHO they appear to have been made by a barefooted RZ, and would explain all that dust on her feet.

There is also some fraying on the rope, room center, some threads have torn and can be easily seen sticking out in a downward direction. Do you see it too? Has it "already been discussed/dismissed? Thank you and good night.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

Just noticed that my post, regarding how the impressions on Rebecca's left calf and also her forearm IMHO point to having died while being tied to the chair, has been deleted. So I thought to post a summary of the on-topic content of an otherwise rather long post. Sorry about that.

In a nut shell, to me it looks like the impressions were made by the chair, but only a small portion of the chair is visible so it's really hard to see. Also zoom in on the bedspread and let me know if you don't also see what appears to be a footprint on it on the lower right hand portion. And possibly also either spotting by some kind of liquid, or partial footprints.

If you make sure you have an actual photo, not just the thumbnail, I can see things more clearly when I play with my brightness and contrast settings as I swivel my high-res laptop display back and fort to change the angle. When I do this, BTW, I can also see quite a few more footprints on the balcony. IMHO they appear to have been made by a barefooted RZ, and would explain all that dust on her feet.

There is also some fraying on the rope, room center, some threads have torn and can be easily seen sticking out in a downward direction. Do you see it too? Has it "already been discussed/dismissed? Thank you and good night.

The wicker chair and the red cover were not even brought into evidence. Even though it was turned over. Neither was the bedspread. Interesting that you can see other impressions. We have also discussed impressions/prints in the carpet that LE never delved into. I agree about the dryer sheet. I am always finding those floating around and falling out of bed linen etc. If it was there it could very well have been used to wipe off prints or used to hold items.

About the frayed rope. We have no information on what knife or if both knives were used on the rope. There has been speculation that "all" the rope is not accounted for.

STS-135 I also wanted to offer my condolences on your father. Very sorry for your loss.

I want to remind everyone to be very careful about identifying yourselves with personal information. This case involves a great deal of money/power including LE... many people have a great deal to lose when the truth is uncovered.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

"Originally Posted by time Have we been over this?

So, Rebecca died from asphyxiation by hanging, right? What about the rigor in her legs holding them in a bent position. Can some of you with medical knowledge chime in again? I'm trying to work out scenarios where it is possible that her legs formed rigor in that position and the lividity was on her back (IIRC).

Is it possible she was hanged but then soon after placed in some different position where rigor and lividity set, then she was moved before she was found and/or before 911 was called? I know early on we had long conversations about her possibly being hog tied also or tied to a chair.

Was Wecht's conclusion basically that she died by hanging, but was not dropped from the balcony?"

The way I understood Wecht's conclusion was that there were two types of damage to RZ's neck consistent with a strangulation and the other with a hanging.

If RZ had been sitting unconscious or dead in that wicker chair for some time and then thrown over the balcony those marks would still be there? It seemed to me the theory that the marks came from the wicker chair made more sense that coming from banging into the plants below the balcony.

 

[K_Z]

A search of the forum's 'archive' would no doubt reveal some posts from those who can explain how it is in fact possible. But here is where they were probably quoting from: Encyclopedia of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 3, pp. 27-32. WARNING: Illustrated with actual and very graphic photos.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VY...ge Sternocleidomastoid muscle causes?&f=false

Thank you.

p.s. My sincere apologies to you and all for my emotional outburst. Both cases, Rebecca's and Maxie's, reek of incompetence and even callousness on the part of LE. And, having been there and lived it, I am finding it a bit difficult to overcome the pain sometimes. Thank you for your understanding.

Thank you for the forensic link, STS.

I have heard of hemorrhage from positional asphyxia before. It would be 1-2 weeks before I could consult with a more knowledgeable expert about the 2 issues I will discuss next. I am not a forensic expert, but I do have expertise in issues related to cardiopulmonary anatomy and physiology due to my specialty (anesthesia).

I'm having a hard time attributing the SCM and infrahyoid hemorrhage documented in Rebecca's autopsy to positional asphyxia for a couple reasons. First, the ME used "abundant" to describe the degree of hemorrhage in the SCM and straps. That doesn't reconcile with the diffuse hemorrhage in positional asphyxia-- even supposing her neck was at a very odd angle for quite some time.

The second issue I have with positional asphyxia as the cause of the hemorrhages is the lack of evidence of negative pressure pulmonary edema. Even if Rebecca was unconscious, or semi- conscious, she "should" have evidence of NPPE from inspiratory efforts impeded by chest constriction, OR inspiratory efforts against a mechanically obstructed glottis, if suffocation or strangulation AND death occurred prior to hanging. Her lung weights were 360g R and 320g L. Well below the threshold for NPPE. The ME recorded only "mild" congestion, and "no" edema.

Are you able to discuss your "chair" theory in more physiological detail? I am open to this as COD, but am not persuaded that this is what happened. I still think the evidence favors long drop with a beating heart.

Either way, it seems we can agree it is cold blooded, premeditated murder.

Added thought:

Rebecca was "clean" for all drugs and alcohol in her tox screen. If she were intoxicated by ETOH or other substances, I might see an explanation for lack of NPPE, due to centrally mediated respiratory depression. But she was presumably in her usual state of excellent health, and awake, and alert at the time of presumed attack.

 

[Mrs. Holmes]

NR's Son......

http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Nina-Romano/1823829120

It is the computer searches that bother me.... ALOT and who had access to the house to do them.

It could have been NR's son who killed RZ. His condition of Asperger's Syndrome and Max's accident could have pushed him into taking action.

What if NR's son was there the morning of Max's accident... maybe he was the one taking a picture of MS when he was playing on the balcony with the scooter. The "planking" picture. Maybe he was afraid either XZ or RZ would "Tell" eventually that he was there and in affect caused Max's accident. What if he decides to get rid of RZ because she can tell everyone what happened. XZ is safe on a plane home but RZ is home alone and NR's son has a good part of the day to plan her demise. Or maybe he is just enraged that Max is so badly hurt and blames RZ. Again, the message on the door is sarcastic.....

The kinky searches and the naked body.... they speak of a teenage boy... and the message on the door.... so cold.... teenage boy with Asperger's who feels threatened that his caregivers will turn on him if they find out he was the cause of MS's accident? Or simply the agony of feeling that RZ harmed MS deliberately. NR's son certainly would have heard much about this while staying with DS during this tragic time. Was this his way of ... a teenage's boy with aperger's way of "taking care" and handling the situation. The confusion of the sexually attractive RZ, the expected demise of MS... the strong emotions of likely both DS and NR that RZ causes MS's death.... filter that through the mind of a teenage boy with Asperger's.... he had motive and time to do this...

Maybe NR was actually at the mansion looking for her missing SON! Or Maybe NR said she was at the house to cover for her SON?

Darn this case is weird.... but this is the first suspect I could tie in the kinky searches on the Mansion computer with....

I sure hope he is questioned!!!

You might want to read up on Asperger's.... this is the wiki link....
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome"]Asperger syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

 

[*Lash*]

The wicker chair and the red cover were not even brought into evidence. Even though it was turned over. Neither was the bedspread. Interesting that you can see other impressions. We have also discussed impressions/prints in the carpet that LE never delved into. I agree about the dryer sheet. I am always finding those floating around and falling out of bed linen etc. If it was there it could very well have been used to wipe off prints or used to hold items.

About the frayed rope. We have no information on what knife or if both knives were used on the rope. There has been speculation that "all" the rope is not accounted for.

STS-135 I also wanted to offer my condolences on your father. Very sorry for your loss.

I want to remind everyone to be very careful about identifying yourselves with personal information. This case involves a great deal of money/power including LE... many people have a great deal to lose when the truth is uncovered.

FWIW - SDSO did take "bedding" into evidence. I don't know what bedding. The bedding is listed on SW 41227 as item #18 and #25.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

The dryer sheet appears to have a pink tint to it, like it may have been washed with the red blanket (the one not taken into evidence). I believe it's possible it came from the red blanket but could have been a convenient tool to use in covering up fingerprints.

 

[*Lash*]

Just noticed that my post, regarding how the impressions on Rebecca's left calf and also her forearm IMHO point to having died while being tied to the chair, has been deleted. So I thought to post a summary of the on-topic content of an otherwise rather long post. Sorry about that.

In a nut shell, to me it looks like the impressions were made by the chair, but only a small portion of the chair is visible so it's really hard to see. Also zoom in on the bedspread and let me know if you don't also see what appears to be a footprint on it on the lower right hand portion. And possibly also either spotting by some kind of liquid, or partial footprints.

If you make sure you have an actual photo, not just the thumbnail, I can see things more clearly when I play with my brightness and contrast settings as I swivel my high-res laptop display back and fort to change the angle. When I do this, BTW, I can also see quite a few more footprints on the balcony. IMHO they appear to have been made by a barefooted RZ, and would explain all that dust on her feet.

There is also some fraying on the rope, room center, some threads have torn and can be easily seen sticking out in a downward direction. Do you see it too? Has it "already been discussed/dismissed? Thank you and good night.

STS - are you referring to the bedding in this picture? The part of the sheet that is shown right underneath the bed frame?

 

[DeDee]

I think this is the link TO THE BED RE-ENACTMENT everyone is asking about....along with weights added to simulate the weight of the original bed and a large bag weighing about 100 lbs.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15940480/...nt-reveals-new-questions?clienttype=printable
(Don't mean to interrupt, but I thought I'd cut in for a sec)

It's no wonder the simulated bed moved farther along than the guest room bed. It appears to me that the simulated bed has roller wheels attached to the legs. Also, the carpet is obviously not as plush as the guest room's carpet.

While I do not profess to be a wizard at physics, the manner in which the rope is tied to the guest room's bed appears, to me, that the corner attached would have lifted off the carpet as it moved forward before landing at its final resting spot some 7 1/2" away; therefore, not making any drag marks in the carpet along the way during the fatal jump.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz8671.jpg