The case for murder

[sdcali]

There was a great discussion about the table and table leg by Inobu several threads back early in the investigation. Inobu had some great insight on the direction that the rope lay on the grass, telling us what direction Rebecca was carried from.

I will try to find it.

Here is the post Inobu posted on 8-31-2011 at 11:31 a.m. He attached the same photo lauriej did in her post above.


"No matter which way you look at it the evidence keeps point back to a staging scene. Here are two factors which would negates the table being broken in the said manner.

The total weight of AS and RN has to be 280lb + minimum. 170 for AS 110 for RN. Having 280 lb standing weight on that table, then having one leg breaking would have all 280lbs shifting to the broken side, driving that edge of the table to the ground. More damage would have occurred with the applied weight to the table tops edge. The fact that the table was still standing and the location of the leg questions the theory.

Another point to take into consideration (as pointed out is) the location of the table prior to the event. To move a broken table and carry it's leg and place it under the table is highly unlike unless...once again staging is the intent. The tables placement in the images presented does not appear to be its normal placement.

Here is the final point which makes me question the tables positioning.

The leg is broken outward from the right side yet the leg is to the left of the legs normal position. It rest under the table to the left. It contradicts the theory of down weight force breaking the leg. The three remaining legs would prevent lateral movement and the direction of the broken leg and the walkway are aligned which counters the shifting or loss of balance.


Notice the right angled piece as it flares outward to the right. That damage is more inline with the table being dragged from the right and the leg getting caught in the mortice and broken off. The leg being tossed under the table appears to be more likely the case.

Notice that there art no splinters in the wood nor stress fractures. Inobu "

 

[Carpe Pacem]

I miss Inobu's insight and wish he'd come on back.

 

[SunnieRN]

Technically speaking this is correct, sort of. See the movement of the bed is pretty complex. It's an articulated structure so it can move in pieces to some extent (torquing the connections without moving adjacent members). The way I analyzed the bed was basically to cut it into half and then quarters. Once the front foot began to move it was ALMOST moving independing of the other feet for a finite amount of movement, then the articulation would have been maxed out and the other parts of the bed would have begun to move. In this order:

left front foot
left rear foot
right front foot
right rear foot

That's the way the movement sequence would go IF there was enough load on the bed to move all feet some distance. You can see that the articulation of the bed joints played into the equation because the police diagram shows the left front foot relocated 7.5 inches, but the left rear foot is not moved this far.

Now, the reason I said all that is that Rebecca being hung from below, would have caused movement to initiate in the left front foot. But it would have gradually tried to pick up and slide more of the bed. Without the momentum, I don't believe that the left front foot would have moved as far as it did because the forces would have been insufficient to start moving the left rear foot slightly.

The logic is open to debate, of course. It's just what I rationalized looking at free body diagrams and trying to work out the dynamic movement of a semi-rigid assembly.

The other problem I have with the "hoist her up and hang her theory" is that she had pretty significant connective tissue damage to her throat, so I just don't see that happening in a slow strangulation. I believe that would require an impact loading with some significant g's.

Let me know your thoughts on all this.

Thank you SO much!!! I wish I understood math!!:thumb:

 

[Zale]

Here is the post Inobu posted on 8-31-2011 at 11:31 a.m. He attached the same photo lauriej did in her post above.


"No matter which way you look at it the evidence keeps point back to a staging scene. Here are two factors which would negates the table being broken in the said manner.

The total weight of AS and RN has to be 280lb + minimum. 170 for AS 110 for RN. Having 280 lb standing weight on that table, then having one leg breaking would have all 280lbs shifting to the broken side, driving that edge of the table to the ground. More damage would have occurred with the applied weight to the table tops edge. The fact that the table was still standing and the location of the leg questions the theory.

Another point to take into consideration (as pointed out is) the location of the table prior to the event. To move a broken table and carry it's leg and place it under the table is highly unlike unless...once again staging is the intent. The tables placement in the images presented does not appear to be its normal placement.

Here is the final point which makes me question the tables positioning.

The leg is broken outward from the right side yet the leg is to the left of the legs normal position. It rest under the table to the left. It contradicts the theory of down weight force breaking the leg. The three remaining legs would prevent lateral movement and the direction of the broken leg and the walkway are aligned which counters the shifting or loss of balance.


Notice the right angled piece as it flares outward to the right. That damage is more inline with the table being dragged from the right and the leg getting caught in the mortice and broken off. The leg being tossed under the table appears to be more likely the case.

Notice that there art no splinters in the wood nor stress fractures. Inobu "

Where's Inobu? I have questions.

 

[Brit]

What still nags at me is the two knives found. Why would she need two knives? In my opinion, I would think that the second knife would suggest that another person was there and using it as a threat. Both knives look sharp enough to cut the rope....that alone makes me question the whole suicide theory....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Just checking in.

Has the police decided to reopen the case yet?

TIA

IMO

 

[SunnieRN]

Just checking in.

Has the police decided to reopen the case yet?

TIA

IMO

Hi Ocean, nice to see you!! Not re opening as of yet.:seeya:

 

[banedon]

I have an indelicate question--wouldn't she have evacuated at the time of death? I this always the case? It was never mentioned.

Bladder/bowel evacuation as a result of 'primary flaccidity' happens in many instances of death, though it can take several hours after someone dies before it happens. It is a frequent occurrence but not a constant and will, of course, be dependent on the corpse's position, how vigorously it is moved around, and how 'full' it was at the time of death.

In the case of violent deaths, however, especially asphyxiations (ligature, garrotte, manual, mechanical, smothering) and hangings, it is almost a certainty and it will usually occur shortly before death or as the person is dying. Sometimes this is due to the fear and shock often associated with violent deaths (homicides especially). In most cases, however, it is a result of pressure on the vagal nerve bundle or the carotid artery, cutting off blood flow and restricting the brain from getting oxygen. This will cause all sorts of havoc in the muscle and nervous systems, one of which is often sphincters 'short-circuiting' and releasing body waste involuntarily.

A Danish forensics study conducted in 1981 on the effects of asphyxiation reported that in cases of death (suicide, homicide, or accidental) more than 65% of the bodies had a completely empty bladder at the time of autopsy, with many also having a partial evacuation. Their testing group consisted of 74 cadavers over a period of several years. By contrast, in their control group consisting of deaths that were not related to asphyxiation/hanging, only 14% had a complete evacuation. Evacuation during asphyxiation is also statistically more common in females than in males, as well, though that pertains to a different study altogether.

In any event, I just wanted to toss a little forensics trivia out at you in response to your question. As I stated, you are essentially correct. It is an extremely common occurrence in deaths like this one.

And, as someone else explained later on in the thread, 30-40 cc's of urine is a very insignificant amount. The average human bladder can hold more than 500 cc's for up to five hours without any discomfort, so she really had what amounted to about an eyedropper full of urine in her bladder for the postmortem examination. A partial bladder release leaving such a small amount is very common in deaths like this as well.

So yes, she very likely did have a bladder evacuation while hanging. The ~40 cc's mentioned in the autopsy report are probably just what was left over.

 

[deanna82437]

I wasn't sure where this should go, but these warrants apply to both persons, so here they are for quick reference to items and dates.

Warrant #41227 - 7/13/2011 Brian
Patterson, SDSO, Items from 1043
Ocean Boulevard (including request to
seal affidavit)

Warrant #41290 - Filed 7/11/2011 to
Search on 7/15/2011 - Thomas Adkins,
COPD, items from 1043 Ocean Boulevard
(including chandelier)

Warrant #41373 - 8/12/2011 - Keith
James, COPD. AT&T for Wireless phone
records

Warrant #41432 - 8/24/2011 - Keith
James, COPD, DVD recordings of all
entrances to Rady children's Hospital
beginning 1 hour prior to admission
of MS through Wednesday 7/13/2011 at
8:00am

Warrant #11-164, 8/24/2011 - Angela
Tsuida, SDSO, AT&T for Wireless phone
records

Warrant #11-165 - 8/24/2011 - Angela
Tsuida, SDSO, Cellco Partnership, dba
Verizon Wireless for phone records

 

[stilettos]

Does anyone else find it odd that JS never went back to the Coronado mansion at all since picking up clothes after MS fall? I mean, not to check and see about RZ, not to help bro deal with finding RZ, not to see what LE was doing to his home....not at all. Like he just shut the door on it. Hmmm....interesting.

 

[curiousjo]

I read that JS did return to the mansion late Monday night around 12-1 am. Apparently, he packed a suitcase, then returned to local hotel (as McD house was full that night). My take on it - he returned home to sleep, then got in fight with RZ and took off. I remember that JS/RZ texted each other into early hours on Tuesday - after he had left.Then, on Wednesday - he wasn't texting or answering her calls. AS and NR flew in, dog left at kennel and XZ flew out. There had been a change.

The fact that AS sent the death text AND JS did not respond by rushing back to the mansion - well, that says a LOT!

AZ loosens the bindings on RZ hands, but NOT the noose strangling her neck!

JS lets RZ lie naked on the lawn - all day - he did not bother to pick up the phone and demand LE respectfully place a tent. He wanted the media to see her, as that would lock in the staged scene in the eye of the public.

 

[SunnieRN]

I've got a question, or two. If someone were a private pilot, and was going to fly a jet from San Diego, to AZ, wouldn't they have to have a 'flight plan', as to the airport they plan to take off from, and land at?

Also, if you rented a car in San Diego, and were going to fly back to AZ, would you leave the car with a friend in San Diego? Or would you drive it back to the airport and drop it off prior to your flight?

 

[Brit]

I read that JS did return to the mansion late Monday night around 12-1 am. Apparently, he packed a suitcase, then returned to local hotel (as McD house was full that night). My take on it - he returned home to sleep, then got in fight with RZ and took off. I remember that JS/RZ texted each other into early hours on Tuesday - after he had left.Then, on Wednesday - he wasn't texting or answering her calls. AS and NR flew in, dog left at kennel and XZ flew out. There had been a change.

The fact that AS sent the death text AND JS did not respond by rushing back to the mansion - well, that says a LOT!

AZ loosens the bindings on RZ hands, but NOT the noose strangling her neck!

JS lets RZ lie naked on the lawn - all day - he did not bother to pick up the phone and demand LE respectfully place a tent. He wanted the media to see
her, as that would lock in the staged scene in the eye of the public.

I think your theory might be right on. Didn't the dr initially think ms could have been suffocated? It would be interesting to know if the dr talked about these suspicions that day with the family. If this is the case, in my opinion, it would explain a lot about js behavior after rz death. Including the reason he didn't bother calling his brother back after that text. Also, if the reason for rz to be murdered was because of the early belief that ms was suffocated, I wonder what the reaction was after his ar was released and it was revealed his death was do to the injuries from the fall. All my opinions.

 

[SunnieRN]

Where's Inobu? I have questions.

Also, where is Scorekeeper? I miss her insights.

 

[alexanderdavis]

Does anyone else find it odd that JS never went back to the Coronado mansion at all since picking up clothes after MS fall? I mean, not to check and see about RZ, not to help bro deal with finding RZ, not to see what LE was doing to his home....not at all. Like he just shut the door on it. Hmmm....interesting.

....And not to hold her one last time. Very sad!

 

[SophieRose]

....And not to hold her one last time. Very sad!

1043 Ocean Blvd was marked as a crime scene, he would not have been able to go anywhere near her as LE wouldn't want the area to be contaminated.

 

[Zale]

Does anyone else find it odd that JS never went back to the Coronado mansion at all since picking up clothes after MS fall? I mean, not to check and see about RZ, not to help bro deal with finding RZ, not to see what LE was doing to his home....not at all. Like he just shut the door on it. Hmmm....interesting.

I agree 100%. Very odd. Like he wanted to shut the door on RZ. Speaking of shut doors, according to http://www.cbs8.com/story/15466715/questions-linger-in-coronado-mansion-hanging-death

[snip]Three photos posted on the Sheriff's web site show the French doors of the mansion's balcony in three different positions.

One exterior photo – Nesbit said it was taken by a Coronado police officer before 9:20 a.m. on July 13 – shows one of the balcony's doors open.

A second photo – taken during darkness sometime after 3:32 a.m. on July 14 – was shot from inside the bedroom and shows both balcony doors closed.

A third photo – also taken after 3:32 a.m. on July 14 – shows both doors wide open.

Lt. Nesbit explained the sequence of events to News 8.

"Photo one occurred first. That was taken by a Coronado police officer who was on scene prior to the sheriff department's arrival," Nesbit said.

"Photo two – showing both doors closed – we believe the door on the left was blown closed by a breeze; the door on the right was secured with a bolt-type lock into the floor," Nesbit continued.

"Photo three has both of the doors open. We (officers) opened both of the doors to take that photo," said Nesbit.[snip ends]

So question is which is the actual undisturbed crime scene balcony? If it was as Nesbit said, the first exterior photo, the way LE found the doors was that the door on the right was bolted lock, and the left door remained open, correct?

From the footprint pics of dirty balcony, it appeared that RZ had stood directly in midline between two doors, with her feet in a V-shape. If RZ kept the door on the right bolted shut and only the left one was opened, she would have had to shuffle sideways with her ankles bound and with her back to the doors to get herself aligned midway between the two doors to form her precise V-shaped footprints. If she indeed had to shuffle over to align herself in the center of the two doors, there should be more than the one pair of V-shaped footprints, yes? We would have seen a lot of scurried footprints towards the midline of the two doors.

First, the single pair of V-shaped footprints in the midline of the two doors dispels the LE theory that one door had already been bolted shut when RZ allegedly killed herself. Again, if we are to believe that RZ acted alone, both doors would have to be opened. Otherwise there'd be a shuffling of multiple footprints. So either Nesbit is incorrect as to the intact status of the crime scene balcony doors or someone other than RZ had to bolt shut the door on the right after RZ was on the balcony. If it wasn't RZ whose wrists and ankles were bound who bolted shut one door, AND it wasn't an LE officer, we have to conclude that someone else either assisted RZ's suicide, or that it was murder.

Second, how did RZ hop from V-shaped footprints 2.5 feet forward to make only the visible right toeprints with her ankles bound? From the autopsy, her ankles were bound with 2 inches max of "wiggle room" in between. 2 inches is not a lot of space for feet to jump 2.5 feet forward in one single hop landing only onto the toes of the right foot. RZ would have had to shuffle her feet (or make several small hops) forward towards the balcony railing and there would have been many more footprints than was the one pair of V-shaped footprints and the one right toeprint seen on dirty balcony floor.

Third, it is physically impossible for a 5 foot 3 inch tall RZ with bound wrists and ankles to then from the single right foot (right toes only) push off from the balcony floor (unless there was a springboard underneath her in which case it'd mean someone removed the springboard after she allegedly jumped) to exceed the 3 feet vertical height of the balcony railing, or for RZ to have the momentum to throw herself laterally or even - according to the official report - lean over - sideways onto her left hip (dust was found only on her left hip) to then fall over the 3 feet high railing and only scrape off approximately 3 inches of dust on the railing.

So, ladies and gents, it looks like either assisted suicide or murder.

 

[tvscum]

I’m not sure if anybody has posted this before, but I think this is the exact same bed the rope was tied to. Based on the measurements in the Sheriff’s bedroom diagram, the bed would be 60" wide (if the diagram is to scale). So that would make it a full-size bed with a weight of 129 pounds without the mattresses. Still, it’s impossible to know how much the mattresses might weight. And, I suppose it could be a queen at 151 pounds without mattresses. This might help in making a ballpark calculation as to the total weight of the bed and what it would take to drag it across the carpet.

http://www.elliottsdesigns.com/

 

[tvscum]

Various mattress weights

http://www.uship.com

 

[branwynbreeze]

I've got a question, or two. If someone were a private pilot, and was going to fly a jet from San Diego, to AZ, wouldn't they have to have a 'flight plan', as to the airport they plan to take off from, and land at?

Also, if you rented a car in San Diego, and were going to fly back to AZ, would you leave the car with a friend in San Diego? Or would you drive it back to the airport and drop it off prior to your flight?

If you are are flying by VFR-visual flight rules, you do not need to file flight plan.

About car, depends on how much time, money and gofer people you have I guess as to where you'd leave rental.