The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[carolinea]

I think this is a bit of a "green herring" if you will. The Wine Cellar's offseason purpose was to store christmas decorations. It seems likely that the garland could have gotten in her hair when she was placed in there.

Yep, exactly. Plus, they stored all the extra Christmas trees there. If they had garlands on those trees, it's likely some was left behind in the room.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

If you haven't yet read Chief Kolar's book "Foreign Faction" I highly recommend it. It will change the way you see this case.

Thanks Heymom. I haven't yet read this, but I definitely will when I have the time


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[PositiveLight]

No, FW did not know where the light switch was. And JR, according to FW, yelled "my baby" before he had turned on the light. Now, was there ambient light from the rest of the basement? Probably at least some. But the room turns to the left, so none of that light would have reached to where the body lay.

I read somewhere that one of the housekeepers said that the boiler room and wine cellar was very very dark. That JonBenet was scared of the basement but Burke played down there often. From what I gathered, the help and Burke were the only ones usually going into the basement. It was the housekeeper before LPH.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-wilcox.htm

LINDA WILCOX: It's a wine cellar, that's what it was built as. It has no windows, I mean, it was a wine cellar. The last time I was in that room, there was nothing in it, it was bare. It wasn't used for storage, it wasn't used for anything. It was very damp, anything you put in there got kinda moldy, nothing was in that room. It wasn't necessarily hidden but it wasn't in plain view. And the room leading to it was the boiler room. It was kind of open but it was very dark. No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there. In fact, I'm the one who discovered the safe. Patsy didn't know it was there. One day, it was Suzanne, myself, Nedra and Patsy

 

[The Dark Shadow]

1. It's probably a better question to ask - Why specifically $118K? Why not a round number? I think that specific number points directly to PR and not an IDI. IDI has been ruled out on this forum.

2. The partially digested pineapple was found in the proximal small intestine (the end nearest to the stomach). This would indicate it was probably ingested 30 mins to 2 hrs prior to her death (by most accounts of digestive info), not hours. The blow to the head being about the pineapple is just one theory.

3. Leaving the corpse in the house was probably out of fear of getting noticed by the neighbors. And also might have something to do with the undoing. If you are open to the BDI theory, then the revenge killing theory goes out the window as she is already dead. As for the time limit for calling the police - Yes. They were supposed to be at the airport at 7, so there was a deadline.

4. Regarding the RN - all signs point to PR. The IDI theory is moot. Therefore, one can only conclude it was written after the death of JBR as a ruse and a cover-up.

Thanks so much kanzz for the interesting and intelligent answers

Yes, you're right about that specific amount; however, that's what I was attempting to articulate. If the Rs had, say, a recent bank statement (or payslip, deposit statement etc) laying around, an intruder may have based their demand amount on that, rather than any prior knowledge of the Rs wealth.

Having said that, an RDI theory does fit more snugly (Occam's razor and all that). Working off a RDI framework, this indicates that the Ramseys really are quite stupid though!

Your info about digestion is extremely helpful, thanks. I agree with everything else


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[The Dark Shadow]

These questions HAVE been answered so that is why I reminded you that there was no intruder. The ransom letter was written that way so that Patsy could throw suspicion onto her housekeeper FIRST and then John could cast suspicion on others including employees. Everything else has been gone over ad infinitum.

Thanks Heymom for your earlier replies. They have definitely been more thoroughly answered in my mind now .



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[PositiveLight]

Thanks so much kanzz for the interesting and intelligent answers

Yes, you're right about that specific amount; however, that's what I was attempting to articulate. If the Rs had, say, a recent bank statement (or payslip, deposit statement etc) laying around, an intruder may have based their demand amount on that, rather than any prior knowledge of the Rs wealth.

Having said that, an RDI theory does fit more snugly (Occam's razor and all that). Working off a RDI framework, this indicates that the Ramseys really are quite stupid though!

Your info about digestion is extremely helpful, thanks. I agree with everything else


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RBBM
You said a mouthful right there. I think they felt superior in many ways and that they could out maneuver law enforcement. They probably felt they had did a good job covering up the original crime. (In a way... they actually DID do a good job because they muddied the waters JUST enough) Something that jumped out at me again while transcribing was the comment made by Patsy during their first CNN interview on January 1, 1997.
Remember the ransom letter said the kidnappers were a small foreign faction.... meaning more than one person right?
Tell me now, reading her statement from the CNN interview, what jumps out at you...(this is for everyone to respond to Dark Shadow! I just wanted to back up your thought that they were in fact stupid.)

Snippet of CNN interview
PR- "I will tell my friends to keep ..keep.. your babies close to you...
there's someone out there.."

(((There's someONE out there. Only one person? No small foreign faction??)))

 

[BOESP]

RBBM
You said a mouthful right there. I think they felt superior in many ways and that they could out maneuver law enforcement. They probably felt they had did a good job covering up the original crime. (In a way... they actually DID do a good job because they muddied the waters JUST enough) Something that jumped out at me again while transcribing was the comment made by Patsy during their first CNN interview on January 1, 1997.
Remember the ransom letter said the kidnappers were a small foreign faction.... meaning more than one person right?
Tell me now, reading her statement from the CNN interview, what jumps out at you...(this is for everyone to respond to Dark Shadow! I just wanted to back up your thought that they were in fact stupid.)

Snippet of CNN interview
PR- "I will tell my friends to keep ..keep.. your babies close to you...
there's someone out there.."

(((There's someONE out there. Only one person? No small foreign faction??)))

Patsy also said she and John believed there were two people who know who did it -- the person who killed JonBenet and someone that person confided in.

Here's an interesting link concerning this:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/printthread.php?t=6873&pp=12

 

[The Dark Shadow]

RBBM
You said a mouthful right there. I think they felt superior in many ways and that they could out maneuver law enforcement. They probably felt they had did a good job covering up the original crime. (In a way... they actually DID do a good job because they muddied the waters JUST enough) Something that jumped out at me again while transcribing was the comment made by Patsy during their first CNN interview on January 1, 1997.
Remember the ransom letter said the kidnappers were a small foreign faction.... meaning more than one person right?
Tell me now, reading her statement from the CNN interview, what jumps out at you...(this is for everyone to respond to Dark Shadow! I just wanted to back up your thought that they were in fact stupid.)

Snippet of CNN interview
PR- "I will tell my friends to keep ..keep.. your babies close to you...
there's someone out there.."

(((There's someONE out there. Only one person? No small foreign faction??)))

Hehe, sorry - I'm usually posting while feeding my squirmy, flaily-armed baby (she loves to imitate me 'typing' by hitting my ipad screen while I'm trying to use it), so I often just post as quickly as I can without proofreading

Good catch! She could be referring to a collective 'someone', but then again, have the Ramseys ever mention a group being responsible, in any interview?

I agree that they muddied the waters just enough, but I also feel their 'good job' wasn't through design - just sheer luck. If the investigation wasn't bungled from the beginning, I reckon the Rs would have been arrested within the first week. The influence of politics and money is what really let JBR down :-(


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[The Dark Shadow]

Patsy also said she and John believed there were two people who know who did it -- the person who killed JonBenet and someone that person confided in.

Here's an interesting link concerning this:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/printthread.php?t=6873&pp=12

Interesting. Have PR or JR ever made any mention of the 'foreign faction' or a group, outside of direct discussion about the ransom note?


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[BOESP]

Interesting. Have PR or JR ever made any mention of the 'foreign faction' or a group, outside of direct discussion about the ransom note?


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Mostly what I've heard is some form of "there is a killer on the loose," which sounds singular to me.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm pretty much on the fence (because there's just not enough evidence either way... that WE know of), but leaning towards RDI. I haven't read the entire thread, but I do try to keep up, so sorry if these have already been addressed, but there are a few things that I do think are odd though and I'd love your opinions and thoughts on them...

1. The amount requested in the ransom note. Most people ask "why not millions?" and I feel that the smaller amount may point towards an intruder (or somebody hoping to sound like an intruder). Why? Because an intruder may not have know the Ramseys were filthy rich! Then again, you could argue they must have known the Ramseys, because they addressed them personally in the letter and knew their way around the home, but a) the names may have been seen on mail or utility bills laying around or similar and I'm sure most of us leave unopened letters laying around near the phone or on the fridge etc. b) It's just a house - it's not too difficult to work out the basement is down and - from there - it's probably not too difficult to find a small, hidden room, of you were looking for a hidey hole. Anyway, I just feel the amount casts doubt on the RDI theory, rather than strengthens it.

Sorry, but if you can go for 118,000, why not an even 200,000? And that house was a maze. Someone had to know their way.

2. The significance of the pineapple. I do think it's weird that this is an unanswered question and do think the Ramseys are probably being untruthful about it, but I don't agree with some posters who posit that BR hit JBR for stealing his pineapple. The traces were found in her small intestine, right? Well then that would mean the pineapple would have been eaten a number of hours before the fatal blow - otherwise it would have been in her stomach. Any medical professionals here to weigh in?

I'm not a medical professional, but I know some, and they all say roughly 1 to 2 hours. Actually, Jim Clemente and Laura Richards had an idea about that on this week's Real Crime Profile. Here you be: https://soundcloud.com/real-crime-profile

3. I don't understand why JBR was left in the house if RDI. Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a fake kidnapping would look more realistic if the kidnapping victim isn't found in the home! Ok, so they may have thought it was too risky to move her out of the home (even though they likely had a ton of time to do it). In that case, why didn't they stage a revenge killing or something instead? Was there some sort of time limit that meant they had to call the police at the time they did? They still had hours before they were due to fly out to their holiday home, didn't they?

Wow, to think how many times I've been over that one! A lot of risk with transporting her body, just like you say. For one thing, where would they go? Also, you assume they knew a lot about crime and crime scenes. And yes, there was a time limit.

4. The fact the ransom note was written in the house is definitely bizarre, but why do some people assume the ransom note was written after JBR was killed? If you assume the note was written before she was, it does point more strongly towards IDI because it can then be assumed it was an actual kidnapping gone wrong. Think of it like this... An intruder comes in at some stage during the night - perhaps even as early as before the Ramseys came home from dinner (and perhaps with one of the many spare keys the Ramseys were handing out like candy). They decide that if they use stationery at the Ramsey's home, they will be leaving less evidence (which is actually very clever!), so they sit down and write their long-winded (less clever) note, fully intending to kidnap JBR. When crunch time comes though, something goes wrong and JBR is unintentionally killed. The intruder flees, leaving both the ransom note and JBR and not following up because of their accident.

HarmonyE makes a good argument. Why would someone WRITE a ransom note, inside the house or not? Aren't most of them typed or made from letter cut-outs? As or thinking why it was written after JBR was killed, because that's when they NEEDED it!

 

[PositiveLight]

Hehe, sorry - I'm usually posting while feeding my squirmy, flaily-armed baby (she loves to imitate me 'typing' by hitting my ipad screen while I'm trying to use it), so I often just post as quickly as I can without proofreading

Good catch! She could be referring to a collective 'someone', but then again, have the Ramseys ever mention a group being responsible, in any interview?

I agree that they muddied the waters just enough, but I also feel their 'good job' wasn't through design - just sheer luck. If the investigation wasn't bungled from the beginning, I reckon the Rs would have been arrested within the first week. The influence of politics and money is what really let JBR down :-(


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Totally agree! They just had some dumb luck. It wasn't through design. Actually I think they probably THOUGHT that they pulled off the perfect murder. When actually they should have gotten caught the morning of the murder. The investigation was botched from the minute the cops walked in the door.
If I had been the first detective to see the ransom note I'd have cuffed them on the spot. No way in hell an innocent parent would immediately call the cops after reading that their daughter would be beheaded immediately and the house was being watched blah blah blah. I can't believe they got away with so much so early in the investigation. Reminds me what PR said after OJ was aquitted." You can get away with murder in America. " or something to that effect. Poor little JonBenet. She never stood a chance IMHO.

 

[k-mac]

Yes, I've heard the speculation and to me, it actually would make sense if JR knew that wine cellar was already searched. If he didn't know that though, then it wouldn't make sense. I have always though: if you're JR, and you want to hide a body, why wouldn't he have picked the crawl space on the other side of the basement? That would seem like a much more secluded and hidden place than even the wine cellar.

i dont think JR was looking for a place to hide her for another time.
the wine cellar was perfectly selected because it was secluded and dark enough to miss on quick inspection ie ramsey quick search of house not find her.
but was open enough that LE was supposed to find her pretty much immediately.
the ransom note was supposed to be a quick justification as to why shes dead when the cops find the body most likely within minutes of arriving.
Had the R's known 7 hours later they would still be waiting for LE to move on from the kidnapping fantasy, i believe that ransom note would have probably been all of twenty words.
this is when i also believe the R's developed a hatred and disrepect for LE that waiting around nearly sent them both over the edge.
jmho

 

[TeaTime]

FW didn't see anything because the body wasn't visible yet. I dare to suggest that the body was behind things in the WC, like the window screens, and not in the middle of the floor.

When Lee and Spitz said there was no sexual assault, I was taken aback and have come to realize that they were talking about that night and whether it was part of the reason for the murder. What I believe they were saying is that the staged sexual "assault' was post-mortum, therefore not an assault but rather desecrating of a body..

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks so much HarmonyE . I've replied below...



Agree - there is nothing else in that ransom note that I question. It is undoubtedly unique and very clearly written by a well-educated English speaker with an eloquent grasp of the language. The dollar amount is the only aspect that bugs me.

Do you know if there was any other hypotheses as to why the amount was so bizarre? I have not seen it thoroughly discussed outside of WS, so would love to see an 'official' explanation. I know LE dropped the ball in a big way initially, but surely they investigated whether particular sums of money were readily available to the Ramseys etc?

I don't know if there's any "official" explanation, Dark Shadow.

Thank you for this answer - that actually clears it up quite a bit. I was under the impression the strangulation occurred just after the blow to JBRs head (as in, within an hour). Poor little JB - it's so heartbreaking to know she could possibly have been saved if she had received medical attention immediately!

It may have been a small possibility, Dark Shadow. And even then, what kind of life would she have had?

It did work, good point! I still think this is such a weird aspect; however, I guess there is some indication that the Ramseys intended to move JBR later. Panicked thinking could also account for it, I guess.

The Ramseys (parents) were both supposedly quite intelligent, right? So this is why I question it; however, I guess intelligence =/= knowledge of investigative techniques, so they may have assumed the police would leave the home looking for evidence elsewhere, which would leave the Rs free to move JBR later.

Now you're talking! Knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing, and it's a true master who knows and respects the difference. Yes, the Ramseys may have known the forms, but not the substance.

Yes, I think it makes the most sense that the note was written by somebody in the family to cover up a crime; however, it irks me that they were so damn ignorant of LE procedure!

As you say, Dark Shadow: they had no reason to know LE procedure!

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks so much kanzz for the interesting and intelligent answers

Yes, you're right about that specific amount; however, that's what I was attempting to articulate. If the Rs had, say, a recent bank statement (or payslip, deposit statement etc) laying around, an intruder may have based their demand amount on that, rather than any prior knowledge of the Rs wealth.

Having said that, an RDI theory does fit more snugly (Occam's razor and all that). Working off a RDI framework, this indicates that the Ramseys really are quite stupid though!

Your info about digestion is extremely helpful, thanks. I agree with everything else


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BBM

I'm not sure that "stupid" is the right word, Dark Shadow. A person can be smart and not know about something that's not on their radar. I mean, an accountant is smart, but you wouldn't hire one to fix your plumbing, would you?

Still, a while back, I did a poll where I asked if the Ramseys were clever or lucky. Guess which one most people picked? (The right one, IMO)

 

[TexMex]

Totally agree! They just had some dumb luck. It wasn't through design. Actually I think they probably THOUGHT that they pulled off the perfect murder. When actually they should have gotten caught the morning of the murder. The investigation was botched from the minute the cops walked in the door.
If I had been the first detective to see the ransom note I'd have cuffed them on the spot. No way in hell an innocent parent would immediately call the cops after reading that their daughter would be beheaded immediately and the house was being watched blah blah blah. I can't believe they got away with so much so early in the investigation. Reminds me what PR said after OJ was aquitted." You can get away with murder in America. " or something to that effect. Poor little JonBenet. She never stood a chance IMHO.

Idk. I would have called the cops too.

To me the Ramsey's felt entitled:

Convinced of one's own righteousness, justifiability of one's actions or right to have something, especially wrongly so; demanding and pretentious.

They decided they were entitled to deal with this themselves. This was their daughter, their son, their grief, their guilt and their reputation. They felt entitled handle this tragedy within the family. But there was the problem of having to report the death. They decide on the kidnap scenario and call police. This puts the focus (they hope) away from their home and their son.
Entitled people can be even more difficult when they have the resources in the form of prestige, power, and/or wealth to transcend the usual bonds of social reality and when they have the tenacity to use legal action.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Mostly what I've heard is some form of "there is a killer on the loose," which sounds singular to me.

Definitely singular. Thanks BOESP

Totally agree! They just had some dumb luck. It wasn't through design. Actually I think they probably THOUGHT that they pulled off the perfect murder. When actually they should have gotten caught the morning of the murder. The investigation was botched from the minute the cops walked in the door.
If I had been the first detective to see the ransom note I'd have cuffed them on the spot. No way in hell an innocent parent would immediately call the cops after reading that their daughter would be beheaded immediately and the house was being watched blah blah blah. I can't believe they got away with so much so early in the investigation. Reminds me what PR said after OJ was aquitted." You can get away with murder in America. " or something to that effect. Poor little JonBenet. She never stood a chance IMHO.

Thanks PL . I believe Linda Arndt was immediately suspicious (or, more like certain), so I just don't understand how she was so lax in supervising JR that day! It's crazy!



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[The Dark Shadow]

BBM

I'm not sure that "stupid" is the right word, Dark Shadow. A person can be smart and not know about something that's not on their radar. I mean, an accountant is smart, but you wouldn't hire one to fix your plumbing, would you?

Still, a while back, I did a poll where I asked if the Ramseys were clever or lucky. Guess which one most people picked? (The right one, IMO)

Thanks for all your replies SD. Very helpful and enlightening . Yep, I agree. Ignorant is probably a more suitable word and definitely lucky!

I have been thinking about the fact JBR was at the scene and I really do feel as though they thought the first responding officers wouldn't bother searching the house as thoroughly as they did. I really think they intended to move her later on.


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[The Dark Shadow]

It may have been a small possibility, Dark Shadow. And even then, what kind of life would she have had?

RSBM. True, but that's not the point. If there was any chance of life, she was worth saving.


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