re 'At the house, the Ramseys gave the police some undeveloped film they'd taken recently '
PMPT
p13 "cost you x millions. We will be in touch. Period. At the house John Ramsey gave the police a roll of undeveloped film, taken at their Christmas party on December 23.
p14 "all of whom were in emotional distress. all of whom were in emotional distress. During this period of time Fleet White left the house to obtain a roll of film hed taken at the Ramseys Christmas party, returning 30 minutes later."
Hold the phone.....
THis is confirmation that there are
two rolls of film taken at the infamous 23rd party. This
really thickens the plot concerning the activity that morning, more specifically that early in the timeline. It brings up several things(and some I may not be thinking of at the moment). I also want you sleuthers to jump in on some of these as my memory gets hazy.
Was the FBI still on scene at this point? I can imagine them going over the few facts of the case, knowing about the 911 call on the 23rd, and wanting all photographic evidence of that party retrieved immediately. If they weren't on scene, which keystone cop had an epiphany?
Its understandable that cops would want the role of film still in the Ramsey camera. We know of this roll and how John took the last few pics to finish it and he accidentally took pics of interesting items. Having said that, it is the Christmas roll of film. The 23rd roll is a different role of film obviously.
Who asked Fleet to go home and retrieve his roll of film? John? BPD? FBI? If its John, why does he ask? They could pretend this roll does not exist. Did Fleet simply offer up the film after hearing the Ramseys were turning over theirs? Was he asked specifically if he had film of the 23rd?
Why are the events of the 23rd of so much interest that morning? Other than the 911 hangup which was explained away as an accident(later on), did someone in the house say something that raised a red flag? I can understand cops wanting any pics taken on Christmas. Pics taken two days earlier while its still in the kidnapping phase is a bit odd.
AS far as BPD wanting to know who was at that party, wouldn't one roll technically answer these questions? Besides, why is that party being discussed at such an early stage? As far as I know(or remember), NONE of the books written by insiders on this case have ever mentioned the 23rd party coming up this early in the investigation.
Amazing this crucial tidbit flew under the radar for so long. So we now have two rolls of film taken of the 23rd party and two rolls of film on Christmas.....both rolls in the possession of the Ramseys and Whites. Did anyone else take pictures at these parties?
There has always been confusion about the photographs. This info helps make more sense of it while at the same time adding a new layer of confusion. One thing it does is help us realize why the cops are so interested in the photographs. We thought they were basing their comments in the interviews on one set of photographs. They are not. It's two sets. Things aren't adding up.
I always thought the basement sequence is what caused the fracturing of John and Fleet's friendship after the murder. These sets of photographs may have played a role in that as well.
Frankie....
1. It makes you wonder doesn't it? They threw the cutesy pictures down the basement and discarded/removed god knows how many things...yet that card was there, since the aftermath of the party, and the feces in the candy box, how long had that been there?? Had they known about both things logic dictates they'd done something about them and we would never have known about either. They failed to notice both. Were the feces as recent?
Yeah the torn up card could've easily been flushed down the toilet. One reason I don't think they knew about it. Some could say they'd leave it alone because it would point the finger at Santa but it also can point to something going on at the 23rd party so I think they would've destroyed it had they known of its existence......or tossed it down in the basement with everything else.
The candy box is one of the oddities in the case and I'm not sure exactly what it means, if anything. We also have no idea when that happened. That child abuse expert who looked through the house(or whatever she was, forgot her name, help me out otg or uk) didn't even mention feces being on this box of candy so while KOlar states it is feces, I am on the fence on that piece of evidence. Been awhile since I read Kolar's book. Was this feces actually tested?
If it is indeed feces, it may have nothing to do with what happened that night but does reveal a layer of dysfunction in that house of horrors.
Those are the pictures I had seen, So santa was indeed there, makes me wonder about the alleged comment she made about a secret visit from him, did that ever lead anywhere? how do Jonbenét's facial expressions progress through out the set? I agree with you something about that first one is unsettling, poor Jonbenét, several of her pictures have that effect.
I would love to see all the photographs on both rolls of film in their proper sequence....specifically photos after the 911 call happened. Not just of Jonbenet but everyone.
No one ever took the secret Santa thing very seriously which is inexcusable. Its one of the last things officially know to be said by a murder victim. It is important no matter who said that to her.
What makes her comment so interesting is its timing. Santa is going to come visit her after Christmas and give her something special but its a secret? As we all know, she was murdered Christmas night. When she said this, was she innocently speaking of her own imminent murder? She mentioned this 'secret Santa" on the 23rd.
The investigators have been told of how the day before her battered, strangled body was found on Dec. 26, 1996, in the Ramseys' Boulder mansion, 6-year-old JonBenet told a little friend's mom that Santa had given her a "secret message" at the family party.
Did something happen to her at this 23rd party and in a move to try and calm her down was she told of a special, secret visit from Santa? Just think, had she never told this to that woman, we wouldn't even know about it.
Friends were going to confront Patsy about the "mega-Jonbenet" thing after Christmas and as we all know, she was murdered Christmas night.
Are those two massive coincidences? I don't think so. Its why I believe whatever happened on the 23rd lit the fuse.
While Santa was a suspicious character, it may have actually been John that told her this thing about a secret Santa visit. We will never know due to BPD and DA not taking the victim's own comments very seriously. It was discussed in the interviews but needed a more direct approach. They should've been more confrontational.
JOHN RAMSEY: It's -- if I -- you know, if I recall this little tidbit that her mother said that JonBenet said Santa was going to come visit her the evening of the 26th, she never told us that. And if that's something they would have, you know, secretly prearranged, would have been very possible, because I think JonBenet took Santa through the house, you know, that night of the 23rd or was with him while he was there the year before, I remember that. If I came -- if I in fact -- if
in fact that's who said that to her and in fact was said, and somebody she knew, and was expecting, particularly Santa Claus, she would hop right out of bed, you know, gone to the mall if he wanted to.
I find it disgusting that John would insinuate his own six year old daughter would just hop out of bed and go on some adventure with him. The comment says so much more about John than it does Jonbenet or Santa.
Oh and...
I think Jonbenet took Santa through the house, you know, that night of the 23rd
further along in the interview its brought up again....
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at the risk of just unfortunately after this case already jumping to the conclusion there was apparently one of JonBenet's friends or parents that day said JonBenet told them that Santa Claus was going to come visit her that night, last night, not the night, I don't know if that's hearsay on my part.
Uh....
Santa Claus was going to come visit her that night, last night, not the night....
That's an interesting stutter, John.
Something definitely happened to Jonbenet
that night.
I find it mind boggling that some people think nothing happened at that 23rd party.
TRIP DeMUTH: Who would you think, if it was somebody who was -- played the role of
a Secret Santa for JonBenet, who comes to mind as somebody who might do that with JonBenet?
PATSY RAMSEY: I am not sure how to even -- how they would -- what Secret Santa, I don't understand.
TRIP DeMUTH: Bring a present to her, I am your Secret Santa, I am going to have a special present for you after Christmas type of thing, or some such thing like that. Is there anybody that you can think of that comes to mind who might have that type of relationship with JonBenet?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean Bill McReynolds, who played our Santa Claus, you know, was very fond of JonBenet. He was, you know, from our house, he'd take them by the hand and take them to get something to eat, you know, and he just adored her. I mean, that would be the only one I would think. I mean the year prior he came after -- to our house after Christmas, not in Santa Claus regalia, just in his street clothes, you know, and he had a gingerbread house, and
he -- and I looked at him and I am going, "what are you doing here, you're going to spoil the
surprise." And he said, he said, oh, aren't Santa Clause is Brett or Bill, he told the kids, and he said my son made this gingerbread house. His son was a baker down at a cake place down in
the (INAUDIBLE) Shopping Center, and he made gingerbread houses. And he said, you know, I have this gingerbread house, and I think -- thought since you all were into Christmas, I would bring it to
you all. And so he told JonBenet and Burke that he was Santa Claus's brother, and that he looked
like Santa Claus, except in his jeans and whatever. He said I am Santa Claus's brother
and I herd his reindeer for him during the summers. You know. And --
TRIP DeMUTH: That was the Christmas before?
PATSY RAMSEY: Before, yes.
TRIP DeMUTH: And how long after Christmas did he show up as Santa Claus's brother?
PATSY RAMSEY: A couple of days later.
If that doesn't tell you Santa Bill had an unhealthy interest in Jonbenet, nothing will. He's not on my list of potential murderers but he's very high on my list of potential abusers. In another strange coincidence in this case(and there are many coincidences in this case), the night Jonbenet was murdered was the 20th anniversary(to the day) of Santa Bill's daughter and best friend being kidnapped by someone. His daughter was unharmed but the friend was sexually assulted.
Things that make you go hmmm.....
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Did JonBenet have expectations that Bill McReynolds would go by again after Christmas 1996?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't think so.
TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
THOMAS HANEY: Was she ever alone with McReynolds?
PATSY RAMSEY: I wouldn't say alone, no. I mean we had a Christmas party going on with other people all over the house, kids, you know, and -- alone, no.
Having trouble keeping their stories straight. IMO when an old man is allowed to go on 'tours' of your house with your six year old daughter, including the basement, she has been alone with him regardless of how many people are in your house.
Another interesting fact about this infamous 23rd party is Santa Bill is the one who talked her into having it.
"I had not planned to have a family Christmas party in 1996, but Bill McReynolds called me on the twentieth. He told me that Charles Kurault and his "On the Road" television program were going to be in Boulder and would be filming him as Santa. Bill wanted to include our party in the filming, if possible, and he strongly encouraged me to have the event. I agreed."
-Patsy DOI pg95
Charles Kurault and his film crew never showed up.
"On December 23 thirty-one people arrived for the party; the Whites, the Barnhills, the Fernies, the Stines, and the Barbers, and all their children, plus their assorted house guests." -DOI pg95
Santa Claus had two engagements that night and so he came, I cant remember whether it was like 5:30 or 4:30 or somewhere in there." [Patsy 4/97]
The 911 call was made at 6:48 pm.
One other thing.....the Ramseys also had a party on Dec. 13th. Just like with the other parties, they are very evasive and pretend to be stupid.
TRIP DeMUTH: Do you remember what your children did during that party, during the dinner (snip) "where they being baby-sat somewhere else?" (snip)
PATSY RAMSEY: I think they were around. I don't know if they came down and kind of left me their bowls and went back to play." (snip) "I do remember once we didn't have enough food and I had to call Treiling (phonetic) and order every piece of chicken wing and roll they had. Could have been you know -- everybody brought alcohol but not food, you know, everybody was supposed to bring something. There wasn't enough food." [Patsy 6/98 BPD Interview]
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LOU SMIT: Was JonBenet visible at that time in the house? JOHN RAMSEY: "I am sure she was, yeah. She -- but I can't visually remember her being there, but I am sure she was. Had to be." [John 6/98 BPD Interview)
INteresting how John and Patsy don't like talking about Jonbenet and parties. Cant visually remember your own daughter at this party? Patsy changes the subject to what type of food they were eating?
What really happened at THIS party?
By the way, JAR was in Boulder when this particular party occurred. That fact might not mean anything, just pointing out that fact.
I'm going off topic here but while digging through the transcripts I have on my computer for the above quotes I found this. Its when they are telling Patsy about Jonbenet being sexually abused. ONly going to post a small portion to point out something...
TOM HANEY: That there was some prior vaginal intrusion that something --something was inserted?
PATSY RAMSEY: Prior to this night that she was assaulted?
TOM HANEY: That's the--
PATSY RAMSEY: What report as -- I want to see, I want to see what you're talking about here. I am -- I am -- I don't -- I am shocked.
TOM HANEY: Well, that's one of the things that's been bothering us about the case.
PATSY RAMSEY: No damn kidding.
TOM HANEY: What does that tell you?
PATSY RAMSEY: It doesn't tell me anything. I mean, I knew -- I -- I --
TOM HANEY: Okay, for a second --
PATSY RAMSEY: Did you know about this?
ELLIS ARMISTEAD: I tried to stay out of the making of the record and inserting myself into the tape-recording of this interview. The newspapers have talked about this. Whether or not--
Haney needed to be dragged out of that room and horse whipped. If not whipped, fired immediately. Patsy is in trouble, she knows it, and is on the verge of saying something....
PATSY RAMSEY: It doesn't tell me anything. I mean, I knew -- I -- I --
And Haney interrupts her!! Pure incompetence. Of course Patsy recovers and her attorney digs her out of that hole. We will never get to know what Patsy was going to say due to Haney's idiotic interruption.
Patsy was on the verge of a slip up but par for the course, the people interrogating her pull the shovel out of her hand to prevent her digging herself into a deep hole she cant climb out of.