The Duct Tape Match #3

[AZlawyer]

Thanks, Marspiter. To respond to NTS's question on the closed thread:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFile...PEEVIDENCE.pdf pp. 13-14 arethe detailed notes on 4 pieces of duct tape. Q62-64 were found on Caylee's face; Q66 was found on the gas can. The types of threads and thread counts are exactly the same, except that Q66 has a cotton component.

The first paragraph of the Henkel documents notes that this type of tape includes cotton fibers: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21147538/detail.html.

So the only explanation for the Q62-64 tape not including cotton fibers is that they rotted away, like Caylee's shirt. And if they had included cotton fibers, they would have been exactly identical to the Q66 tape.

 

[LambChop]

Thanks, Marspiter. To respond to NTS's question on the closed thread:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFile...PEEVIDENCE.pdf pp. 13-14 arethe detailed notes on 4 pieces of duct tape. Q62-64 were found on Caylee's face; Q66 was found on the gas can. The types of threads and thread counts are exactly the same, except that Q66 has a cotton component.

The first paragraph of the Henkel documents notes that this type of tape includes cotton fibers: http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21147538/detail.html.

So the only explanation for the Q62-64 tape not including cotton fibers is that they rotted away, like Caylee's shirt. And if they had included cotton fibers, they would have been exactly identical to the Q66 tape.

Thanks for that information, AZlawyer. And I believe a jury would determine, as we have done here many, many times that the only dissimiliar issues on the tape is the cotton threads. JMO

 

[notthatsmart]

I wonder if they will be able to prove that they rotted away. Don't get me wrong here, but I do believe there may have been more than one product here. I have read a lot of these documents and have noted that this is only one specification and one item number.

But just based on the documents provided, I noticed that at the top it sais revision no. 2 and that is dated 02/22/2005 It also list the supplier item, but not the supplier. Through out the specifications, it does not say warp, wep, round, off white, or the things that the Fbi reported. Moreover it says the physical attributes are 1.88" x 30 yds.

The following pages show sales. Problem is that the item number was penciled in by someone to be a different item number, furthermore it says 1.88" x 50 Yds, a complete different product. I understand you theory that the cotton rotted away, however the shirt was made out of cotton with no protection and a lot of it was still there. The shorts were made out of cotton with no protection and it was 100 percent there. The duct tape fabric is protected by layers of polyethylene and glue. I can't help that someone in SA is leaving out a few documents. I am sure if there are several manufactures and several types of specifications and revisions, the defense will point it out in court. The fact that the SA did not supply us with sales reports from Lowes and so on from Orlando area, just makes me suspicious that they are hiding something. I realize that most sleuthers just accept things the way they are or the way the SA presents them and so do I, until I see descrepancies like these, My hinky meter goes up on SA. all in my opinion

 

[LambChop]

It's just a roll of tape which has not been mfg'd or sold for two years. You are in the jury box and all of the tape is shown to you. First the piece on the gas can and you compare it to that which was found on Caylee. The gas can tape has been protected from the elements and looks pretty much like the tape that would be on a roll. The tape which was on Caylee however looks as if it has been out in the weather for months. The only difference is that the weathered tape is weatherbeaten and has lost it's cotten threads. All Henkel tapes were mfg'd with cotton threads. Next you see what happened to the cotton shirt collar which also was exposed to the weather. It is not a stretch of the imagination to believe they are from the same roll because you know: 1. The roll is no longer sold and has not been sold for two years; 2. The A's are documented as having this very same rare tape in their household. The key here is the tape was found in the household not the fact that the cotten threads are gone. Had this tape been from another home/business the end result would have been the same, which will be proven to the jury at the time of the trial because you know that will be an issue with defense. Somewhere at the Body Farm there is a little piglet with some Henkel duct tape on it's mouth sitting in a swamp for 6 months, minus the lipstick I would imagine. So I would not fret too much about it because we all know SA has done a surburb job so far. JMO

 

[AZlawyer]

I wonder if they will be able to prove that they rotted away. Don't get me wrong here, but I do believe there may have been more than one product here. I have read a lot of these documents and have noted that this is only one specification and one item number.

But just based on the documents provided, I noticed that at the top it sais revision no. 2 and that is dated 02/22/2005 It also list the supplier item, but not the supplier. Through out the specifications, it does not say warp, wep, round, off white, or the things that the Fbi reported. Moreover it says the physical attributes are 1.88" x 30 yds.

The following pages show sales. Problem is that the item number was penciled in by someone to be a different item number, furthermore it says 1.88" x 50 Yds, a complete different product. I understand you theory that the cotton rotted away, however the shirt was made out of cotton with no protection and a lot of it was still there. The shorts were made out of cotton with no protection and it was 100 percent there. The duct tape fabric is protected by layers of polyethylene and glue. I can't help that someone in SA is leaving out a few documents. I am sure if there are several manufactures and several types of specifications and revisions, the defense will point it out in court. The fact that the SA did not supply us with sales reports from Lowes and so on from Orlando area, just makes me suspicious that they are hiding something. I realize that most sleuthers just accept things the way they are or the way the SA presents them and so do I, until I see descrepancies like these, My hinky meter goes up on SA. all in my opinion

NTS, here's the more complete version of the Henkel docs:

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21540602/detail.html

This version has both "revision 1" and "revision 2." You can see that one of the things revised in 2005 was the item number. In fact, on the bottom of revision 2, it says the revision was to "add item number."

On both revisions, the vendor is listed as Shurtape.

The Henkel specifications do say that the warp is 35% cotton/65% polyester and include the thread count, etc. The Henkel docs are prepared for a different purpose than the FBI docs and would not need other information such as color and shape of fibers.

The yardage measurement is just the length of the roll. Different roll lengths do not mean that the 2 rolls are "completely different products."

Obviously, the cotton fibers at the scene would not all have disintegrated at the same rate. Lots of the shirt was disintegrated. The parts that survived the best were the iron-on letters and the reinforced hems. Children's shorts are generally built of much sturdier stuff than children's T-shirts. And don't forget that certain cotton things in that swamp (including the duct tape) would have been soaked in decomp fluid as well, which no doubt affects the rate of disintegration.

But most importantly, the SA will not have to prove that the cotton rotted away. It is a CERTAINTY that the cotton rotted away, because the printing on the tape makes it a CERTAINTY that it was this specific type of Henkel tape, which makes it a CERTAINTY that it contained cotton fibers. I mean, what are the options? (1) The cotton rotted away in the swamp, which means that the tape was originally exactly the same as the gas can tape, (2) some CSI fan (Casey?) took the duct tape, before applying it to Caylee's face, and carefully removed the glue, then UNWOUND THE COTTON/POLY BLEND THREADS from the warp of the duct tape, then reapplied the polyester threads in a weave pattern back onto the duct tape, then reapplied the same exact adhesive to the tape...but wait, this would still mean that the remains tape originally matched the gas can tape, or (3) the roll of tape used on Caylee was an unauthorized KNOCK-OFF roll containing no cotton but managing to contain EXACTLY TO EVERY MICROSCOPIC DETAIL all other fibers and adhesives used by Henkel, while the roll used on the gas can was a REAL Henkel roll coincidentally used by the A. family.

Well, if it's #3 all I can say is this is the highest-quality knock-off product I have ever heard of. They must have had a guy on the inside to get them all the other fibers and adhesive; the only thing they left out was the pretty cheap cotton component; and the tape was so amazing that it stayed on a corpse in a swamp and held the jaw together for 6 months, even after the body was completely skeletonized. What's the point of making a knock-off if you're going to make it just as good as the real thing?

 

[ZsaZsa]

AZ Lawyer, please stand up and prepare to receive your Blue Ribbon for post of the day- make that of the whole case so far! Thanks :blowkiss:

 

[LambChop]

And don't we just wish sometimes there was a "Double Thanks" button.

 

[notthatsmart]

NTS, here's the more complete version of the Henkel docs:

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21540602/detail.html

This version has both "revision 1" and "revision 2." You can see that one of the things revised in 2005 was the item number. In fact, on the bottom of revision 2, it says the revision was to "add item number."
On both revisions, the vendor is listed as Shurtape.

The Henkel specifications do say that the warp is 35% cotton/65% polyester and include the thread count, etc. The Henkel docs are prepared for a different purpose than the FBI docs and would not need other information such as color and shape of fibers.

The yardage measurement is just the length of the roll. Different roll lengths do not mean that the 2 rolls are "completely different products."

Obviously, the cotton fibers at the scene would not all have disintegrated at the same rate. Lots of the shirt was disintegrated. The parts that survived the best were the iron-on letters and the reinforced hems. Children's shorts are generally built of much sturdier stuff than children's T-shirts. And don't forget that certain cotton things in that swamp (including the duct tape) would have been soaked in decomp fluid as well, which no doubt affects the rate of disintegration.

But most importantly, the SA will not have to prove that the cotton rotted away. It is a CERTAINTY that the cotton rotted away, because the printing on the tape makes it a CERTAINTY that it was this specific type of Henkel tape, which makes it a CERTAINTY that it contained cotton fibers. I mean, what are the options? (1) The cotton rotted away in the swamp, which means that the tape was originally exactly the same as the gas can tape, (2) some CSI fan (Casey?) took the duct tape, before applying it to Caylee's face, and carefully removed the glue, then UNWOUND THE COTTON/POLY BLEND THREADS from the warp of the duct tape, then reapplied the polyester threads in a weave pattern back onto the duct tape, then reapplied the same exact adhesive to the tape...but wait, this would still mean that the remains tape originally matched the gas can tape, or (3) the roll of tape used on Caylee was an unauthorized KNOCK-OFF roll containing no cotton but managing to contain EXACTLY TO EVERY MICROSCOPIC DETAIL all other fibers and adhesives used by Henkel, while the roll used on the gas can was a REAL Henkel roll coincidentally used by the A. family.

Well, if it's #3 all I can say is this is the highest-quality knock-off product I have ever heard of. They must have had a guy on the inside to get them all the other fibers and adhesive; the only thing they left out was the pretty cheap cotton component; and the tape was so amazing that it stayed on a corpse in a swamp and held the jaw together for 6 months, even after the body was completely skeletonized. What's the point of making a knock-off if you're going to make it just as good as the real thing?

Sorry, I am finding differences in these two products. It is not just the item number it is actually the specs themselves. I am not finding anywhere where it says these are the only two tapes made with the logo. I do not believe anyone has shown us that cotton had to be on q64 at one time. Furthermore , the fbi stopped right there with no further testing of the yarn chemicals and any other test that could be done. I am sure that most of the majority is convinced that the cotton rotted away between the poly fibers and under the polyethylene and glue protection. I am not even close to being convinced. I would have to see a test to see if it could be done. I do understand that the human decomposition would speed up the decomp of the duct tape.

 

[AZlawyer]

Sorry, I am finding differences in these two products. It is not just the item number it is actually the specs themselves. I am not finding anywhere where it says these are the only two tapes made with the logo. I do not believe anyone has shown us that cotton had to be on q64 at one time. Furthermore , the fbi stopped right there with no further testing of the yarn chemicals and any other test that could be done. I am sure that most of the majority is convinced that the cotton rotted away between the poly fibers and under the polyethylene and glue protection. I am not even close to being convinced. I would have to see a test to see if it could be done. I do understand that the human decomposition would speed up the decomp of the duct tape.

Henkel doesn't have to say in their documents that those are the only item numbers at issue--they are not writing a report, they are providing company records. If the defense challenges this, the SA will call someone from Henkel to testify to confirm that there are and were no other types of tape with this logo.

Are you saying that maybe Henkel made a tape just like its other tape and with the same logo except without cotton? (I wonder why they would have made this other tape?) So the As had the tape with cotton and the Unknown Killer had the tape without cotton? My advice would be to go back to the earliest duct tape threads. We had some direct sleuthing done, including email communications with Henkel reps, that confirmed for WS'ers that there was no other tape made like this.

What other tests do you think the FBI should have done? They tested the chemical composition of the backing and adhesive, they microscopically examined and counted the fibers...what "yarn chemicals" do you think they should have tested for? Actually, what are "yarn chemicals"?

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Sorry, I am finding differences in these two products. It is not just the item number it is actually the specs themselves. I am not finding anywhere where it says these are the only two tapes made with the logo. I do not believe anyone has shown us that cotton had to be on q64 at one time. Furthermore , the fbi stopped right there with no further testing of the yarn chemicals and any other test that could be done. I am sure that most of the majority is convinced that the cotton rotted away between the poly fibers and under the polyethylene and glue protection. I am not even close to being convinced. I would have to see a test to see if it could be done. I do understand that the human decomposition would speed up the decomp of the duct tape.

What differences? What are you talking about?

 

[notthatsmart]

Henkel doesn't have to say in their documents that those are the only item numbers at issue--they are not writing a report, they are providing company records. If the defense challenges this, the SA will call someone from Henkel to testify to confirm that there are and were no other types of tape with this logo.

Are you saying that maybe Henkel made a tape just like its other tape and with the same logo except without cotton? (I wonder why they would have made this other tape?) So the As had the tape with cotton and the Unknown Killer had the tape without cotton? My advice would be to go back to the earliest duct tape threads. We had some direct sleuthing done, including email communications with Henkel reps, that confirmed for WS'ers that there was no other tape made like this.

What other tests do you think the FBI should have done? They tested the chemical composition of the backing and adhesive, they microscopically examined and counted the fibers...what "yarn chemicals" do you think they should have tested for? Actually, what are "yarn chemicals"?

I guess I meant yarn chemistry as it says in this article.

http://www.adhesivesmag.com/Articles/Feature_Article/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000223126

There may be other subleties they can test, but they may have stopped because the fabric was consistent with coming from a different source roll.

Yes I do believe it is possible that they made a non cotton product with the logo on it. These companies make several versions of duct tape and the main property that is different in each one is the cloth. The Sa may call someone from Henkel, but hopefully from the actual manufacture, but they may not be happy with what he has to say. Different grades call for different cloths. I will check some of the old threads for emails sent from Henkel to sleuthers, but I believe I have been through all the duct tape threads. I am happy that we are discussing physical evidence and you bring up some very valid points.

I am factoring in the old saying if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is probably a duct. I am also factoring in 10,000 sleuthers can't be wrong. I sure wish I could see the defense side of this argument, because they said they are going to debate the duct tape thing. I am a lehman and am finding several holes in the SA case. Can't wait til trial, and hope it is televised. Moo

I wonder if there is a Henkel rep on the SA witness list.

 

[notthatsmart]

I do have a question though.
How does everyone read this statement?

This tape features a durable cotton/polyester cloth to prevent machine-direction tearing and a thick, waterproof polyethlane film backing.

Does this mean the tape features:

1 cotton or polyester
2 cotton and polyester
or sometimes 1 and sometimes the other?

 

[RR0004]

I wonder if they will be able to prove that they rotted away. Don't get me wrong here, but I do believe there may have been more than one product here. I have read a lot of these documents and have noted that this is only one specification and one item number.

But just based on the documents provided, I noticed that at the top it sais revision no. 2 and that is dated 02/22/2005 It also list the supplier item, but not the supplier. Through out the specifications, it does not say warp, wep, round, off white, or the things that the Fbi reported. Moreover it says the physical attributes are 1.88" x 30 yds.

The following pages show sales. Problem is that the item number was penciled in by someone to be a different item number, furthermore it says 1.88" x 50 Yds, a complete different product. I understand you theory that the cotton rotted away, however the shirt was made out of cotton with no protection and a lot of it was still there. The shorts were made out of cotton with no protection and it was 100 percent there. The duct tape fabric is protected by layers of polyethylene and glue. I can't help that someone in SA is leaving out a few documents. I am sure if there are several manufactures and several types of specifications and revisions, the defense will point it out in court. The fact that the SA did not supply us with sales reports from Lowes and so on from Orlando area, just makes me suspicious that they are hiding something. I realize that most sleuthers just accept things the way they are or the way the SA presents them and so do I, until I see descrepancies like these, My hinky meter goes up on SA. all in my opinion

This case is full of a million and one coincidences isn't it?

Wonder why there weren't any fingerprints on the tape? Could it be the tape was so degraded due to the elements that nothing was able to be lifted from it? Wouldn't Caylee's DNA have at least been found?

 

[LambChop]

This case is full of a million and one coincidences isn't it?

Wonder why there weren't any fingerprints on the tape? Could it be the tape was so degraded due to the elements that nothing was able to be lifted from it? Wouldn't Caylee's DNA have at least been found?

Here's another coinkydink, RR0004. Very few people have ever heard of the Henkel tape but the company that makes it is in Ohio. So someone from Ohio would probably pick it off a shelf in lieu of some of the other popular duct tapes out there wouldn't you think????? JMO

 

[JWG]

I do have a question though.
How does everyone read this statement?

This tape features a durable cotton/polyester cloth to prevent machine-direction tearing and a thick, waterproof polyethlane film backing.

Does this mean the tape features:

1 cotton or polyester
2 cotton and polyester
or sometimes 1 and sometimes the other?

In the context of the description just above that says "65 / 35 warp polyester cotton cloth" I would take that to mean a mixture.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Electrical tape, usually black, is different than duct tape. Electrical tape is what electricians use.

The question asked What is Gaffer tape...
Sorry to correct you but in England the tape that electricians use is called Gaffer tape.
In the USA it would be called Duct Tape, it is essentially the same.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-gaffers-tape.htm

 

[Tuffy]

The question asked What is Gaffer tape...
Sorry to correct you but in England the tape that electricians use is called Gaffer tape.
In the USA it would be called Duct Tape, it is essentially the same.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-gaffers-tape.htm

Thanks for the link ZsaZsa. I was confused about Gaffers tape too. Apparently what I was calling electrical tape is not the same as Gaffers tape. I call that black(without cloth) plastic tape, electrical tape.

This stuff:

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/Tape/8913.jpg

 

[Trapshooter]

Sorry, I am finding differences in these two products. It is not just the item number it is actually the specs themselves. I am not finding anywhere where it says these are the only two tapes made with the logo. I do not believe anyone has shown us that cotton had to be on q64 at one time. Furthermore , the fbi stopped right there with no further testing of the yarn chemicals and any other test that could be done. I am sure that most of the majority is convinced that the cotton rotted away between the poly fibers and under the polyethylene and glue protection. I am not even close to being convinced. I would have to see a test to see if it could be done. I do understand that the human decomposition would speed up the decomp of the duct tape.

notthatsmart I would be glad to do a test for you and everyone here at Websleuths.

As I stated a while back, we own a trout farm. We use duct tape all the time to maintain our pipes (underwater & above ground) and I can personally vouch for the disintegration of the duct tape, cotton fibers included. We buy the cheapest duct tape available because we use so much of it but when we first started our trout farm we did buy Henkel brand and other brand names of duct tape. Just because the duct tape has the "Henkel" name on it does not mean it lasts any longer than the generic tape. Next time my husband changes the duct tape on our pipes, I will photograph the duct tape that has been underwater. Maybe the visual will help you understand that the cotton does indeed disintegrate.

 

[notthatsmart]

notthatsmart I would be glad to do a test for you and everyone here at Websleuths.

As I stated a while back, we own a trout farm. We use duct tape all the time to maintain our pipes (underwater & above ground) and I can personally vouch for the disintegration of the duct tape, cotton fibers included. We buy the cheapest duct tape available because we use so much of it but when we first started our trout farm we did buy Henkel brand and other brand names of duct tape. Just because the duct tape has the "Henkel" name on it does not mean it lasts any longer than the generic tape. Next time my husband changes the duct tape on our pipes, I will photograph the duct tape that has been underwater. Maybe the visual will help you understand that the cotton does indeed disintegrate.

Thanks. That is very kind of you. I was hoping of more of a bodyfarm type of test where the tape would be over a cadaver. The human decomp fluid should speed up the decomp of the tape. Once test is done, it should be viewed under ultra violet lights and viewed under a microscope to see if there are no traces of the cotton. In this case, I believe they did view both ways and there were no traces left of any cotton even though it was intertwined with polyester. I am under the belief that there was never any cotton there in the first place. There should be extra protection between the layers of tape since they were overlapped.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Thanks. That is very kind of you. I was hoping of more of a bodyfarm type of test where the tape would be over a cadaver. The human decomp fluid should speed up the decomp of the tape. Once test is done, it should be viewed under ultra violet lights and viewed under a microscope to see if there are no traces of the cotton. In this case, I believe they did view both ways and there were no traces left of any cotton even though it was intertwined with polyester. I am under the belief that there was never any cotton there in the first place. There should be extra protection between the layers of tape since they were overlapped.

Note To Self...... NTS If anyone actually offers to do that for you.......run......fast....


ETA........What I mean is.....I wouldn't trust anyone with a cadaver just sitting around.