The Possible Abuse of Caylee REVISIT

[Mermaid]

I have not asked the people who worked most closely with Cindy why they have not come out and defended her in public, nor would I. What for, so that they also could be slammed and attacked? I have been accused of lying (for what reason would I lie about her work situation?) and have been personally attacked right here on this thread for merely saying that she had a good reputation at work and was held in high esteem.

I don't know of any of my co-workers who are involved in message boards. The world does not revolve around Websleuths, therefore they would not be here defending Cindy. They are probably all providing support to her directly, without the world being involved. If they did go on Nancy Grace or the Today Show, some of you would be throwing tomatoes, accusing them of grabbing their 15 minutes of fame. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Pirate is correct regarding nursing, not every single nurse wants to sit at a desk and order people around, most don't. The whole reason for being a nurse is to work one-on-one with other human beings. No one on this message board, unless they are also employees at the same firm, understands the corporate ladder. I mentioned the fact that she is in low level management as that she is in management, and therefore she is not a dimwit who has no idea what it takes to be a good nurse.

I am not going to get into a name-calling battle with anyone on this board. This case has captured my attention, and I am here to learn all I can about it, and discuss it with others. I have no desire to fight.

 

[donnam]

Don't forget the name calling -- snot head -- is emotional abuse and has damaging impacts. If she said it to others, that was the tip of the iceberg.

She didn't call her a snothead, she referred to her as snothead. I used to call my neice witch bit*h in an endearing way when she was being fresh. Was I "abusing" her? I also call my 16 yo a brat. Am I abusing her? I highly doubt child services would take a report on someone calling or referring to a child as snothead much less take them away from the parent.'Look, I am positive Casey murdered Caylee and I believe it was premeditated. However, I think people are reading way to much into things that just weren't there. JMO

 

[chaingangal]

I guess it all boils down to Casey is an adult and made her on choices in lifestyle and friends. Cindy enabled her because of Caylee. If you have raised children a part of you can understand, you want your children to grow up and stand on their own two feet but when they do run amok is it your fault? Twenty -twenty hind site is great, too bad our children don't come with owners manuals. If Casey is actually sociopathic it would not matter what her parents did or did not do, Casey would still make her own depraved decisions. Casey used Caylee as a tool to make mom jump through hoops until mom had enough and put her out. (Bet she didn't see that coming) Casey sees Caylee as the source of all of her problems and eliminates said problem (killing 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak) Do you think Cindy feels guilty. You are damn right she does and so goes the cover up. Do you think Caylee was the abused during Caseys battles with the family? Who else would the twit take her frustrations out on? JMO

 

[donnam]

What bruising of Caylee? My gosh, there are photos and videos of that girl from practically every day of her short little life. In ONE picture she has what might be a bruise under he eye and now everyone in the family beat her???? Find me a 2 year old who doesn't have a bruise somewhere on their body. That would be, IMO, an abused child - one who is not allowed to romp and play.

Unbelievable.

Exactly Chilly. My granddaughter just had two fever sores on her mouth, which in pictures looks like she got hit in the mouth. Not everything is always as it appears.

 

[Chat Noir]

Maybe I was a weird parent, but I never drank alchohol in the presence of my daughter until she was an adult, let alone bring her to parties....geez....
I kept picturing how awful it would be for her to be around a drunken mom...I was someone my precious little daughter relied on and depended on to be in her right mind 24/7 - not in a drunken stuper unable to make sound decisions and take care of her properly. Maybe I am weird?

 

[mydailyopinions]

I have not asked the people who worked most closely with Cindy why they have not come out and defended her in public, nor would I. What for, so that they also could be slammed and attacked? I have been accused of lying (for what reason would I lie about her work situation?) and have been personally attacked right here on this thread for merely saying that she had a good reputation at work and was held in high esteem.

I don't know of any of my co-workers who are involved in message boards. The world does not revolve around Websleuths, therefore they would not be here defending Cindy. They are probably all providing support to her directly, without the world being involved. If they did go on Nancy Grace or the Today Show, some of you would be throwing tomatoes, accusing them of grabbing their 15 minutes of fame. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Pirate is correct regarding nursing, not every single nurse wants to sit at a desk and order people around, most don't. The whole reason for being a nurse is to work one-on-one with other human beings. No one on this message board, unless they are also employees at the same firm, understands the corporate ladder. I mentioned the fact that she is in low level management as that she is in management, and therefore she is not a dimwit who has no idea what it takes to be a good nurse.

I am not going to get into a name-calling battle with anyone on this board. This case has captured my attention, and I am here to learn all I can about it, and discuss it with others. I have no desire to fight.

Mermaid, I agree with you.
Too, I can fully admit, that if I knew Cindy from work or anywhere else for that matter, I wouldn't go out and defend her in public at all..why?, For the exact reasons you stated..
Its sad that Cindy has acted the way she has, else, she may have had a ton of public support.

 

[donnam]

we're not talking about A bruise, we're talking about a tip about a person seeing caylee with BRUISES on her arms AND legs and one on her eye...ONE tip, leading one to believe the BRUISES were seen all at the same time...suspicious?

dangerous speculation? the child is dead, my god, you can't get much more abusive than that!

Was there a picture of all of these bruises? Did the hairdresser call child services? If she had seen that many brusies all over her body, then she was negligent in NOT callinf child services herself on Casey, right?
How do we know this hairdresser was telling the truth? If she did in fact see a few brusies, how do we KNOW she didn't exaggerate? How do we know she wasn't just injecting herself into this case like so many others have? We don't KNOW any of this.

 

[metalcrystal]

What do you mean there was no home? They lived with Cindy and George until June 15th when Casey took off with Caylee "to bond".

I have said this before and I will say it again. Cindy had no right at that point to TELL Casey she couldn't take Caylee out. IMO, Cindy and George had no idea Caylee was being brought to parties. I beleive they were told Casey had to "work" and "Zanny" was watching Caylee.
My daughter and granddaughter have lived with us on and off for the past 3 yrs. I NEVER questioned where my daughter was going when she went out with Karmella. It was not my business. I have never seen anything between them that would give me a reason to question her. Stealing money and changing boyfriends is not grounds for having a child removed from the parent.

ETA: Cindy DID think Casey was working, so thought she DID have an income. So, what would the grounds be for calling in child services?

You all seem to focus on the promiscuous thing,that's not the problem. A daughter who stole repeatedly from me and the rest of the family would have lost all of her rights as far as I would be concerned. I didnt raise her to be a thief and i would have pressed charges before someone else did, not bailed her out. Kc's stealing was extremely serious. The pretend job thing had gone on for years, along with the pretend babysitter. I would have checked it out especially the childcare provider. I would not have bought this "bonding crap". I wouldn't be able to sleep not even one night with the baby in this situation. I would be ruthless at least pursuing every option to get custody. There were huge problems, this didnt happen out of the blue! I wouldn't have sat around waiting to see if my daughter suddenly became a good provider for her child. There isn't always time for that. KC was a CRIMINAL who had escaped prosecution for years, she escalated to murder. She used and destroyed her family. What I am saying, is that she should have been stopped. And yes, there were lots of signs. I wouldn't ignore them, a good family law atty. wouldn't, and I would definately have tried any legal agency that MIGHT be able to help. Unless I felt good about the baby's situation, I would have been relentless. CA chose to ignore things. I think that's wrong. And this thread is getting hostile, we are all just expressing our opinions.

 

[donnam]

With all due respect CW, who exactly raised Casey to be the person she became?????

I have never bought into the blame the parents for how children turn out thing. At some point, adult children need to own their own actions and take responsibilty for them. I raised 6 children and they are all different. My one daughter HAS lost custody of her 4 yo son. My other daughter is a wonderful mother. I am of the firm belief that some people are just "wired' differently.

 

[Chat Noir]

Webster's/ Wikipedia online dictionary definition of abuse - very interesting....


http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/abuse

 

[magic-cat]

Remember something about bruises and abuse- Caylee was not in a day care or group setting with other children and trained professionals. She was with her family virtually all the time.

So if there were bruises or other signs of abuse would Casey's wayward friends have noticed and said anything about it? I doubt it- they probably didn't look very closely at the little girl.

And with friends and family, Casey was usually around to explain away any marks on her body. Of course Cindy would have been inclined to believe her- look at where she stands now with regard to Caylee's murder.

Had Caylee been in a structured setting with child care professionals, I think there would have been observations that Caylee was likely an angry child- and that abuse/neglect on some level was suspected. Even some of Casey's friends noted that mom didn't pay much attention to her and that Caylee was hungry for attention.

Absolutely! To use a word we have all come to hate!
Casey took Caylee around others for short spans of time:
for a play date in the park
for a couple of hours to show her off
for a couple of hours to a cook-out
There was NOBODY who was around Caylee enough to even recognize abuse if it WAS happening. Seeing a child on a random basis here and there for a few minutes or an hour or so is not being an intimate part of that child's life. Only the people who were the closest would have known about it, but in this case, even THOSE people could have EASILY been deceived by this master of deception. She lied about everything to everyone. She wanted to be well thought of and respected. She would never have jeopardized the good opinion that she had carefully manicured from lies by openly abusing Caylee in front of others. This, she would have kept JUST for Caylee...poor Caylee...

 

[donnam]

You all seem to focus on the promiscuous thing,that's not the problem. A daughter who stole repeatedly from me and the rest of the family would have lost all of her rights as far as I would be concerned. I didnt raise her to be a thief and i would have pressed charges before someone else did, not bailed her out. Kc's stealing was extremely serious. The pretend job thing had gone on for years, along with the pretend babysitter. I would have checked it out especially the childcare provider. I would not have bought this "bonding crap". I wouldn't be able to sleep not even one night with the baby in this situation. I would be ruthless at least pursuing every option to get custody. There were huge problems, this didnt happen out of the blue! I wouldn't have sat around waiting to see if my daughter suddenly became a good provider for her child. There isn't always time for that. KC was a CRIMINAL who had escaped prosecution for years, she escalated to murder. She used and destroyed her family. What I am saying, is that she should have been stopped. And yes, there were lots of signs. I wouldn't ignore them, a good family law atty. wouldn't, and I would definately have tried any legal agency that MIGHT be able to help. Unless I felt good about the baby's situation, I would have been relentless. CA chose to ignore things. I think that's wrong. And this thread is getting hostile, we are all just expressing our opinions.

We don't know what Cindy knew or didn't know first off. Second, about going after "custody". It is not as easy as people think it is to get children taken from their mothers. I KNOW this because my husband and I were in court for over 2 yrs to get custody of my step-children. Thier mother was a crack head. They were molested by several of her "boyfriends". It took us TWO years and 10's of thousands of $$. Her parental right were never terminated. She was allowed visitation. Also, she was not declared an unfit mother. We were given custody based on what was in the best interest of the children. Now, this was their FATHER fighting for them. She had two other children whose fathers were not around. The grandparents TRIED to get custody of those 2 during the same time we were in court. Guess what, they did NOT get custody and the children STAYED with the screwed up mother.

Oh and I want to add, we had NO IDEA any of this was going on until the oldest girl started telling us. THAT is when we called child services AND filed an emergent order to show cause to KEEP them with us.

 

[Fandy]

I agree with you about the signs - the picture when she is in her car seat holding her doll imo, she has a look on her face that has always haunted me and I don't exactly know why - but the look on her face is not of a happy little girl. I saw that look in another picture but I can't remember which one...

people interpret photos differently. This particular picture made me think Caylee was thinking something through, trying to figure something out, she doesn't appear frightened to me at all, merely pensive.

 

[magic-cat]

How often have we heard that the serial killer, wife killer, baby killer seemed like a really nice, normal person before they snapped?

And how often have we heard that desperation and despair can change a person? Cindy is now in survival mode. I am certain that the Cindy we have seen is not the same Cindy that her coworkers and patients knew prior to Caylee's disappearance.

Here I will reference the BTK killer. He was a serial killer in SECRET but lived a normal life in PUBLIC. His own wife was unaware of what he was.

 

[Fandy]

Maybe I was a weird parent, but I never drank alchohol in the presence of my daughter until she was an adult, let alone bring her to parties....geez....
I kept picturing how awful it would be for her to be around a drunken mom...I was someone my precious little daughter relied on and depended on to be in her right mind 24/7 - not in a drunken stuper unable to make sound decisions and take care of her properly. Maybe I am weird?

Every time you have a drink you consume to excess? I always serve wine with dinner, not even worrying about stumbling around "in a stupor", we took our child out to a restaurant, we had a cocktail or wine with no worries (or finger-pointing).....

Happy New year everyone, I hope 2009 brings more tolerance and insight for all of us, this has been a very upsetting case, lots of snippy feelings from the tension lately.

 

[magic-cat]

Cindy and George were not obligated to try to take custody of Caylee. They were obligated to teach their daughter to BE her custodian. This would have included making her carry her fair share of the load if she was going to be living in their home. She should have been made to contribute: monetarily and otherwise. She should have been made to pay for her OWN mistakes instead of George and Cindy paying FOR her. When she stole, she should have had CONSEQUENCES for that. They should not have just continued cleaning up her messes and expecting her to learn ANYTHING. They should have taught her how to BE a parent and that did not mean they had to take her child. It meant if she did not abide by some simple principles, like you do NOT steal from my purse. You do not steal from our bank accounts. You do not steal from ANYWHERE. You work and pay YOUR way and YOUR child's way. You get out on your own and make a life with your daughter. NO we are not babysitting every time you want to go out and party...that they should have shown her the door and allowed her to sink or swim on her own. It has been shown time and again that continuously paying a child's way OUT of trouble leads to MORE trouble not less and it teaches them exactly the opposite of what they need to learn.

I begin to wonder if there were drug or alcohol abuse issues IN the home, because there is a great deal that was simply ignored and disregarded and I find it hard to believe that a sober parent would have been so easy to "fool"...I am not saying there was, but I have often wondered...

 

[Salome]

A "well liked" employee huh? By whom? By the employers who kept her in the same "low level" management job for YEARS? and as I said before where ARE all these people who all liked Cindy so much? I have not heard any word from anyone anywhere that they really liked Cindy and that she was a favored employee and friend. I am not attempting to "put words or inferences out there that do not exist". I am attempting to discover if these folks "like" Cindy so much then where are they? Folks who think the world of you will defend you, and if a tragedy strikes in your life then those are the people who lend you their support and stand by your side. The ONLY people that I have seen standing by her side are the vultures in the "organizations" who have been feasting on the rotting corpse.

Once again, we all need to remember that what you and I see is what is in the media and that's that. So, you're assuming that because no co-workers of CA are rushing out and trying to get themselves on the Today Show or in the National Enquirer this must mean that she was not liked or is not supported by them. You have no idea if these people have sent her letters and cards, if they sent food or a fruit basket, if they call her on a weekly basis to check in and see how she's doing.

You have no basis for making that assumption. We cannot assume that media presence is the only way people show support. And even if co-workers are cooling toward her based on all of her recent behaviors, this in way means they didn't like and respect her prior to all of this happening.

Not that any of this matters to figuring out what happened to Caylee or bringing her justice through the legal system.

 

[mydailyopinions]

Cindy and George were not obligated to try to take custody of Caylee. They were obligated to teach their daughter to BE her custodian. This would have included making her carry her fair share of the load if she was going to be living in their home. She should have been made to contribute: monetarily and otherwise. She should have been made to pay for her OWN mistakes instead of George and Cindy paying FOR her. When she stole, she should have had CONSEQUENCES for that. They should not have just continued cleaning up her messes and expecting her to learn ANYTHING. They should have taught her how to BE a parent and that did not mean they had to take her child. It meant if she did not abide by some simple principles, like you do NOT steal from my purse. You do not steal from our bank accounts. You do not steal from ANYWHERE. You work and pay YOUR way and YOUR child's way. You get out on your own and make a life with your daughter. NO we are not babysitting every time you want to go out and party...that they should have shown her the door and allowed her to sink or swim on her own. It has been shown time and again that continuously paying a child's way OUT of trouble leads to MORE trouble not less and it teaches them exactly the opposite of what they need to learn.

I begin to wonder if there were drug or alcohol abuse issues IN the home, because there is a great deal that was simply ignored and disregarded and I find it hard to believe that a sober parent would have been so easy to "fool"...I am not saying there was, but I have often wondered...

I personally agree with the way you say they should have parented her, as this was exactly the way I was raised..but did have many friends who lied, stole, and was bailed out of every situation possible by their parents, they now have established careers and children with no problems. I may not agree with the way some parent their children, but still cannot blame them for the way their non minor children acts....and the one thing that Casey had as leverage was Caylee..and I am sure she used that to the best of her ability anytime she stole or lied to her parents.

 

[donnam]

Cindy and George were not obligated to try to take custody of Caylee. They were obligated to teach their daughter to BE her custodian. This would have included making her carry her fair share of the load if she was going to be living in their home. She should have been made to contribute: monetarily and otherwise. She should have been made to pay for her OWN mistakes instead of George and Cindy paying FOR her. When she stole, she should have had CONSEQUENCES for that. They should not have just continued cleaning up her messes and expecting her to learn ANYTHING. They should have taught her how to BE a parent and that did not mean they had to take her child. It meant if she did not abide by some simple principles, like you do NOT steal from my purse. You do not steal from our bank accounts. You do not steal from ANYWHERE. You work and pay YOUR way and YOUR child's way. You get out on your own and make a life with your daughter. NO we are not babysitting every time you want to go out and party...that they should have shown her the door and allowed her to sink or swim on her own. It has been shown time and again that continuously paying a child's way OUT of trouble leads to MORE trouble not less and it teaches them exactly the opposite of what they need to learn.

I begin to wonder if there were drug or alcohol abuse issues IN the home, because there is a great deal that was simply ignored and disregarded and I find it hard to believe that a sober parent would have been so easy to "fool"...I am not saying there was, but I have often wondered...

Maybe they were AFRAID Casey would take Caylee and they would never see her again if they gave her ultimatums?
Sometimes parents HELP their children because they love them. We did NOT take any rent from my daughter while her and the baby lived here. She bought diapers, clothes and formula, but, we did also, because we WANTED to help her. Not all parents rule with an iron fist. We wanted to make her life easier not harder.
Did she steal from us? Not to my knowledge. Would I have kicked her and the baby out if she had? No. Because this way, I would know my granddaughter was safe. How was Cindy supposed to KNOW Casey was going to kill Caylee? If that thought EVER crossed her mind I am SURE she would have acted on it.
My oldest daughter would be the kind to not let us see Anthony out of spite if we challenged her on her parenting skills. She has done it to other family members. She is a lot like Casey. Very self absorbed. Everything is ALWAYS someone else's fault, never hers.

 

[metalcrystal]

We don't know what Cindy knew or didn't know first off. Second, about going after "custody". It is not as easy as people think it is to get children taken from their mothers. I KNOW this because my husband and I were in court for over 2 yrs to get custody of my step-children. Thier mother was a crack head. They were molested by several of her "boyfriends". It took us TWO years and 10's of thousands of $$. Her parental right were never terminated. She was allowed visitation. Also, she was not declared an unfit mother. We were given custody based on what was in the best interest of the children. Now, this was their FATHER fighting for them. She had two other children whose fathers were not around. The grandparents TRIED to get custody of those 2 during the same time we were in court. Guess what, they did NOT get custody and the children STAYED with the screwed up mother.

Oh and I want to add, we had NO IDEA any of this was going on until the oldest girl started telling us. THAT is when we called child services AND filed an emergent order to show cause to KEEP them with us.

Sadly such stories often end that way, i know that. But, like you, I would have tried my best, just like you did for those kids. That's all any of us can do. But, if she had been made responsible for her thefts, maybe things would have been different. Maybe she would have had to get a real job with real money to pay her atty. fees and restitution. CA did know about that, that is documented.