The Possible Abuse of Caylee REVISIT

[Woe.be.gone]

Why would Caylee have been so afraid when visiting ggp when she was there with CA? Most people seem to believe that CA was the safe person and that Caylee was only in danger while with KC.

The video of Caylee looking troubled at whoever she was looking at (CA) while with ggp is what initially got me thinking that it could have been possible that something happened to Caylee while under CA's care. Caylee looked troubled in that video (like she was worried or afraid) yet we know she was under CA's care and still had to drive home with CA. KC was not there.

When the A's explanations of the morning of the 16th got weirder by the minute and changed, I became very leary that they had ever interacted with Caylee on June 16 let alone listened to her breath or followed her and KC to the car, both of which were stories that evolved or were retracted - not in that order.

By no means am I trying to convince anybody that CA did it or anything like that but I can't stop the thought from entering my head that CA was the last one who cared for Caylee and there are witnesses of them being together. Noone outside the A family saw KC and Caylee together on June 16th. I still think there's a chance that KC went along with CA's script for the purpose of never having to reveal what happened. I know, because KC seems "off" and she steals and had lots of partners, it's easiest to think it's her but I can't help that I'm constantly questioning CA as she lies better than most. Watch her lie on LK while GA looks extremely uncomfortable (not that I trust him but he's not smooth like CA is unless she's lying for him which is unlikely). They may all be protecting the bread winner since nobody else (excluding LA) has demonstrated that they are able to make a living.

People are quick to consider all kinds of cockamamy stuff that has emerged such as the out of the blue computer store witness, Kronk did it, and other twists but it seems like I'm the only one who can't loose the thought/feeling that CA could have been the one in charge of Caylee when something happened to her.

 

[Curious Me]

Why would Caylee have been so afraid when visiting ggp when she was there with CA? Most people seem to believe that CA was the safe person and that Caylee was only in danger while with KC.

The video of Caylee looking troubled at whoever she was looking at (CA) while with ggp is what initially got me thinking that it could have been possible that something happened to Caylee while under CA's care. Caylee looked troubled in that video (like she was worried or afraid) yet we know she was under CA's care and still had to drive home with CA. KC was not there.When the A's explanations of the morning of the 16th got weirder by the minute and changed, I became very leary that they had ever interacted with Caylee on June 16 let alone listened to her breath or followed her and KC to the car, both of which were stories that evolved or were retracted - not in that order.

By no means am I trying to convince anybody that CA did it or anything like that but I can't stop the thought from entering my head that CA was the last one who cared for Caylee and there are witnesses of them being together. Noone outside the A family saw KC and Caylee together on June 16th. I still think there's a chance that KC went along with CA's script for the purpose of never having to reveal what happened. I know, because KC seems "off" and she steals and had lots of partners, it's easiest to think it's her but I can't help that I'm constantly questioning CA as she lies better than most. Watch her lie on LK while GA looks extremely uncomfortable (not that I trust him but he's not smooth like CA is unless she's lying for him which is unlikely). They may all be protecting the bread winner since nobody else (excluding LA) has demonstrated that they are able to make a living.

People are quick to consider all kinds of *advertiser censored*-a-mane-y stuff that has emerged such as the out of the blue computer store witness, Kronk did it, and other twists but it seems like I'm the only one who can't loose the thought/feeling that CA could have been the one in charge of Caylee when something happened to her.

You have an excellent point actually. Caylee's must be looking at CA in that video, and she does look troubled. It's crossed my mind before. It's not like it'd be shocking either. CA, of all people, would be a likely choice to throw under the bus. (more likely than RK or any of the others they've test driven)

 

[magic-cat]

I do think it's odd, but I don't think that those two eye bruises alone are evidence of being hit. It's entirely possible that she was indeed struck. But I think it's also entirely possible that the two particular eye bruises here were caused by typical "kid stuff." However, I could also totally buy into an idea that they were caused by Casey's neglect, like falling down on her own because she was in an unsafe area or improperly supervised, for example.

For some reason, I feel like Casey was covert in her abuse up until "the big show." I don't really have anything to back that up, just my gut

Just for focus, we always need to remember that the abuse of Caylee was not necessarily physical and that she could have been horribly abused and never showed a mark on the outside. Some scars are invisible, as they are to the mind, the heart and the soul. :blushing:

Why would Caylee have been so afraid when visiting ggp when she was there with CA? Most people seem to believe that CA was the safe person and that Caylee was only in danger while with KC.

The video of Caylee looking troubled at whoever she was looking at (CA) while with ggp is what initially got me thinking that it could have been possible that something happened to Caylee while under CA's care. Caylee looked troubled in that video (like she was worried or afraid) yet we know she was under CA's care and still had to drive home with CA. KC was not there.

When the A's explanations of the morning of the 16th got weirder by the minute and changed, I became very leary that they had ever interacted with Caylee on June 16 let alone listened to her breath or followed her and KC to the car, both of which were stories that evolved or were retracted - not in that order.

By no means am I trying to convince anybody that CA did it or anything like that but I can't stop the thought from entering my head that CA was the last one who cared for Caylee and there are witnesses of them being together. Noone outside the A family saw KC and Caylee together on June 16th. I still think there's a chance that KC went along with CA's script for the purpose of never having to reveal what happened. I know, because KC seems "off" and she steals and had lots of partners, it's easiest to think it's her but I can't help that I'm constantly questioning CA as she lies better than most. Watch her lie on LK while GA looks extremely uncomfortable (not that I trust him but he's not smooth like CA is unless she's lying for him which is unlikely). They may all be protecting the bread winner since nobody else (excluding LA) has demonstrated that they are able to make a living.

People are quick to consider all kinds of cockamamy stuff that has emerged such as the out of the blue computer store witness, Kronk did it, and other twists but it seems like I'm the only one who can't loose the thought/feeling that CA could have been the one in charge of Caylee when something happened to her.

Hi Woe! I think in the case, it is possible and in all likelihood probable, that there had been some kind of confrontation, and a vey vocal one, between CA and KC when KC brought Caylee to her for the day. The infamous "fights" of which we have heard from the neighbors would certainly be cause to frighten a small child like that, and IF there had been such an altercation prior to CA bringing Caylee to the nursing home to see her PawPaw, she could have been unsure of exactly whom she COULD trust at that moment. If she heard and or saw the "fight" especially if Cindy did indeed try to choke Casey? That would certainly explain a precocious and insecure Caylee...

 

[wenwe4]

I absolutely believe that Casey murdered Caylee. However, I am not convinced that there was ongoing physical abuse in an overt manner. What do I mean? Let me explain further: I believe Caylee was abused prior to her murder. I also think she experienced some seriously dysfunctional family dynamics. I think she was actively used as a pawn by at least CA and Casey in their lifelong ongoing war with each other, and that is abusive. I think there was an attachment disorder here, as well (google "circle of security" or "attachment theory" for more information on that).

And I certainly think that Caylee was neglected, both of basic needs like regular nutritious food and emotionally when she was with Casey. Like, I can see her eating happy meals and tacos with Casey. I could also see her strapped in a car seat all day, which is abusive in plenty of ways and could potentially play a part in other abusive activities, or perhaps played a part in Caylee's death.

.

Flourish, you and I are both from the Pac. NW and we are extremely fortunate to have some of the world's most premier authorities on attachment theory in our area. Circle of Security (COS) is a videobased therapeutic intervention w/parents to understand their own attachment strategy and further identify their child's needs while recognizing their own needs at that moment. The information about attachment that I have been posting is from the work of COS and their differential diagnosis of attachment strategies. Just wanted to say excellent resource for any of you who are interested in attachment theory. KC's and CA's strategies strongly suggest esteem sensitivity - but without a complete assessment - it's just a "rule out" at this point.

here's a link to the COS webpage
http://www.circleofsecurity.net/

 

[cloud]

Why would Caylee have been so afraid when visiting ggp when she was there with CA? Most people seem to believe that CA was the safe person and that Caylee was only in danger while with KC.

The video of Caylee looking troubled at whoever she was looking at (CA) while with ggp is what initially got me thinking that it could have been possible that something happened to Caylee while under CA's care. Caylee looked troubled in that video (like she was worried or afraid) yet we know she was under CA's care and still had to drive home with CA. KC was not there.

When the A's explanations of the morning of the 16th got weirder by the minute and changed, I became very leary that they had ever interacted with Caylee on June 16 let alone listened to her breath or followed her and KC to the car, both of which were stories that evolved or were retracted - not in that order.

By no means am I trying to convince anybody that CA did it or anything like that but I can't stop the thought from entering my head that CA was the last one who cared for Caylee and there are witnesses of them being together. Noone outside the A family saw KC and Caylee together on June 16th. I still think there's a chance that KC went along with CA's script for the purpose of never having to reveal what happened. I know, because KC seems "off" and she steals and had lots of partners, it's easiest to think it's her but I can't help that I'm constantly questioning CA as she lies better than most. Watch her lie on LK while GA looks extremely uncomfortable (not that I trust him but he's not smooth like CA is unless she's lying for him which is unlikely). They may all be protecting the bread winner since nobody else (excluding LA) has demonstrated that they are able to make a living.

People are quick to consider all kinds of cockamamy stuff that has emerged such as the out of the blue computer store witness, Kronk did it, and other twists but it seems like I'm the only one who can't loose the thought/feeling that CA could have been the one in charge of Caylee when something happened to her.

CA was at work. The other CA was not. GA had his own story, but not quite down pat - he had to be prompted/corrected in that interview...

I don't think Cindy had anything to do with Caylee's "disappearance", other than being a very aggravating factor in the context of a disfunctional family, but that's just my opinion.

 

[flourish]

Just for focus, we always need to remember that the abuse of Caylee was not necessarily physical and that she could have been horribly abused and never showed a mark on the outside. Some scars are invisible, as they are to the mind, the heart and the soul. :blushing:


Hi Woe! I think in the case, it is possible and in all likelihood probable, that there had been some kind of confrontation, and a vey vocal one, between CA and KC when KC brought Caylee to her for the day. The infamous "fights" of which we have heard from the neighbors would certainly be cause to frighten a small child like that, and IF there had been such an altercation prior to CA bringing Caylee to the nursing home to see her PawPaw, she could have been unsure of exactly whom she COULD trust at that moment. If she heard and or saw the "fight" especially if Cindy did indeed try to choke Casey? That would certainly explain a precocious and insecure Caylee...

Just for the sake of clarity, I want to reiterate my previous assertion (in post #308 above) that I do feel Caylee was abused in a variety of ways. I just don't think that the two eye bruises which I've seen photos of show that she was definitely physically struck.

 

[LambChop]

I can see that scenario happening, but the, why the duct tape? To seal the frosting in her mouth? (apologies about the graphics). And a heart sticker (or the shape of a heart sticker) on the tape on Caylee's mouth?

To me, that suggests at least "shut up for now or else"... or shut up for ever... not being gagged with frosting.

But that's JMO

Why the duct tape? We may never know but assuming that an actual argument did take place on the 15th between CA and KC, and CA got physical with KC, what would cause CA to do something like that. KC has taken money before so money may not have been the issue. CA spent all day with Caylee without KC present and since Caylee was able to express herself what if Caylee told CA something that happened while she was with her mother and CA did not like it. Then CA confronted KC and they argued. Maybe KC said Caylee was lying. KC would obviously be upset with Caylee for "telling on her" and may have eventually taken out her anger on Caylee. As you said "shut up for now or else." It sure fits but, again, we may never know for sure. JMO

 

[Curious Me]

Why the duct tape? We may never know but assuming that an actual argument did take place on the 15th between CA and KC, and CA got physical with KC, what would cause CA to do something like that. KC has taken money before so money may not have been the issue. CA spent all day with Caylee without KC present and since Caylee was able to express herself what if Caylee told CA something that happened while she was with her mother and CA did not like it. Then CA confronted KC and they argued. Maybe KC said Caylee was lying. KC would obviously be upset with Caylee for "telling on her" and may have eventually taken out her anger on Caylee. As you said "shut up for now or else." It sure fits but, again, we may never know for sure. JMO

LambChop, you voice what I have always thought led to the rage involved in the final scene.

Maybe there was the start of a fight before leaving for the nursing home. CA was grilling Caylee all the way to the nursing home. CA was pumping this little girl for information about what had been going on when Caylee went with Casey. I wonder if that uncomfortable, troubled look Caylee has in the video is that she was dreading the ride home with CA asking her more questions.

Caylee was just a little girl, but she had already learned to not tell certain things. KC must have threatened her constantly to not tell stuff, even simple stuff like what they did that day. To me, that is abuse right there putting that heavy weight on a young child to keep secrets.:lipssealed:

Sure enough, CA got all kinds of dirt about what Casey had been doing. Upon arriving home, CA lit into Casey - "Caylee told me you took her into RM's bed! or something she was furious about. Then, the big fight.

In turn, KC becomes furious at Caylee for telling CA her secrets. KC is so mad at Caylee that she will shut her mouth from telling anymore secrets forever.

 

[Tulessa]

LambChop, you voice what I have always thought led to the rage involved in the final scene.

Maybe there was the start of a fight before leaving for the nursing home. CA was grilling Caylee all the way to the nursing home. CA was pumping this little girl for information about what had been going on when Caylee went with Casey. I wonder if that uncomfortable, troubled look Caylee has in the video is that she was dreading the ride home with CA asking her more questions.

Caylee was just a little girl, but she had already learned to not tell certain things. KC must have threatened her constantly to not tell stuff, even simple stuff like what they did that day. To me, that is abuse right there putting that heavy weight on a young child to keep secrets.:lipssealed:

Sure enough, CA got all kinds of dirt about what Casey had been doing. Upon arriving home, CA lit into Casey - "Caylee told me you took her into RM's bed! or something she was furious about. Then, the big fight.

In turn, KC becomes furious at Caylee for telling CA her secrets. KC is so mad at Caylee that she will shut her mouth from telling anymore secrets forever.

I honestly think that the fight was over Casey stealing money from her GM.

 

[cloud]

At this stage, there are various explanations, and all of them make some sense... But none of them should have resulted in a child's murder. Because whichever way we look at it, that's what it was.

JMHO

 

[LambChop]

I think the duct tape and KC's statement to Lee "Maybe I'm just being a spiteful bit*h" are connected. JMO

 

[wenwe4]

After re-reviewing CA's interview w/YM, CA frequently went on tangents in her interview. I would bet that the fight was about everything that CA thought KC was doing wrong. It would have spewed from her mouth without interruption, just like she has done time and time again. I think the fight was about $, Caylee, stealing, lying, not being responsible, sleeping around, leaving Caylee @ the imaginanny's, and not providing Caylee to CA, etc. I have maintained all along that Caylee was becoming more and more verbal. At age 2, children have approximately 150 word vocabulary but by age 3 that increases to 300-400 words and they will begin 2 to 3 word phrases. By ages 3-4 they have 600-1000 word vocab and understand 1500 words including nouns, gender, pronouns, etc. http://www.talkingchild.com/chartvocab.aspx

 

[cloud]

I think the duct tape and KC's statement to Lee "Maybe I'm just being a spiteful bit*h" are connected. JMO

That's a new way to look at it - I thought that comment was directed to CA. But then again, what better way to "hurt" and "punish" than to take away someone she loved, because I have no doubt CA (both of them) loved Caylee. They just loved to hate and hurt each other more, and used Caylee to do it - that's just my opinion, though.

JMHO

 

[Bobbisangel]

I am sorry to disagree, and I am surprised I am even posting this, but after over a year of seeing CA on TV I am convinced she could do whatever she put her mind to. If she wanted stop KC I think she could have, she just didn't. I think that weighs heavy on her now and we know she knew enough was wrong to threaten taking Caylee away from KC. I believe CA took the path of least resistence but was capable of controlling the situation if she chose to.

Cindy worked all day...had a home to keep up and was also a wife. Maybe she just felt that she couldn't take on any more. As it stood, Cindy kept Caylee a lot. It isn't easy being older and raising a small child. I don't think that her marriage has ever been very stable and she probably couldn't trust George as far as she could throw him....especially with money.

I don't like George and Cindy but I have to take her side on this one. I'm sure that she is feeling a horrible amount of guilt because she didn't take Caylee.
Not everyone can raise their grandchildren... maybe she just felt stretched to thin already.

 

[2goldfish]

That being said, while the occasional bruise is normal, in my experience, it is not the norm for a child to have repeated facial bruises. More than about two separate incidents of facial bruising in one school year would probably raise a yellow or red flag with me, taking into account the holistic view of that child and their situation, of course (some kids are just clumsier than others, or maybe I'd actually witnessed the injury, etc.).

snipped for space.I thought before that bruises on little kids are very common and wondered if people were just looking for explanations for an inexplicable thing as far as bruises on caylee are concerned. As I read your post I became curious, as my son is just about the age caylee ever got to be, and so I went through 3 years of photos just now (I'm camera happy) and I counted 2. my husband remembered an additional one on the nose from the slide at the park.

so at nearly three, that's our facial bruising. there might have been one or two more but in three years that just about fits what you've seen as typical.

 

[seagull65]

First, I raised two rowdy boys that had their share of accidents and bruises. It's normal to an extent. I have tons of their childhood photos, and probably none showing bruises on their faces on a steady basis.

I'm sure you all have seen it too...a parent that handles their child's body roughly. I've seen several examples of Casey being playful in a rough way. How much did she honor her daughter's small body as in taking care of the little angel?

It's an odd coincidence that there are photos of Caylee with different bruises near her eyes from different mishaps. Bruises in the same general area make me suspicious.

P.S. Wondering if bruises on the forehead are more common in children. Or is it common for children to get bruises under and so close to the eye on more than one occassion?

Those strong bones around the eye sockets seem to be a very common area for toddlers to get little cuts and bruises, at least from what I've seen and heard. Thank heavens we have those prominent bones around our eyes to protect the eye. I'm hyper safety conscious, but my son had more than one instance of a cut or bruise in that area around the age of 2-3. Once he ran into a jungle gym at preschool with his eyebone believe it or not and had a full black (purple) eye and cut (he still has the scar.) I think part of it has to do with the fact that they are growing so fast, they try to rush into places they could get into easily one week and the next week they bang their head or eye trying to do the same thing. Also, I can remember at the age of 3 it used to drive me crazy, because kids of that age love to run while looking over their shoulder behind them (not watching where they are going). It's weird!

 

[seagull65]

I have heard quite a few stories of kids falling and banging eyes on coffee tables before. (You can actually get little things to fit on the corners of coffee tables because of this, little rounded pads or something .) Of course if a toddler had a large bruise on their face that appeared to be from a hand or something, finger marks on their face or frequent black eyes or bruised lips or something, that would be a different story. Or finger bruises around their arms, or bruises on their back, areas they would not as easily bump into things. I can remember my son having at least two bumps on the head that I can remember. Very scary at the time, turned out okay thank God. And that's an only child with an overprotective mother! I don't know if it's quite as bad with girls.

 

[seagull65]

After the toddler years, well I don't remember any more goose eggs on the head or bruises near the eye. It's more the occasional skinned knee after that age, isn't it?

 

[seagull65]

I know! To top it all off, there's that imaginary nanny. CA is such a phony as far as presenting herself as tho' she was a perfect mother herself. I wanted to believe she was just the loving, caring GM, but then I find out she never bothered to meet or call this nanny. It's one thing to look at KC's actions, but then when you look at her family it doesn't seem real either. They all must be from another planet, I agree.

(Bold by me.)
I thought it was pretty weird in the interviews with the Anthonys regarding who took care of Lee and Casey when they were kids after school, too, to hear how little supervision they had from a young age. It was like the A's assumed neighbors and friends' families were looking out for them. I was really surprised when I heard those interviews (was it the depositions by the state?) . To me they sounded over-trusting and naive, or even somewhat neglectful, regarding supervision. It sounds like Casey was the same, for example just letting whatever roommates were around watch Caylee while she was asleep or occupied (for example, Clint said he played with Caylee a lot, Nate said he and Cameron watched Caylee while Casey and Tony were occupied or sleeping, Casey had known these guys a very short time. Clint's girlfriend Maria also mentioned her concern regarding Casey just thinking whoever was in the front room would be watching out for Caylee's safety, her concern regarding the balcony, etc. Anyway, it was interesting when I heard the depositions with GA and CA to hear they had had the same kind of blindspot or naive attitude about supervision of their own children. MOO

However, regarding actual abuse by Casey, I think the fact that Caylee was so bonded to Casey and didn't like being separated from her, always wanted to be held by her (as Annie described for example), Casey was her preferred person, she liked to sleep with Casey rather than in her own bed, etc, all this seems to indicate to me that Casey was probably not someone who struck Caylee, Caylee didn't show fear of Casey, just the opposite. And everyone reports that Casey had always provided decent care and seemed caring and affectionate toward Caylee. So if any abuse occurred (at the hands of Casey), it seems to me like it could only have been right at the very end, though it's kind of hard to picture this sudden change in behavior by Casey toward Caylee with the history like it is. But it's possible. MOO

 

[seagull65]

I did think the silent filming (if it was Casey filming) was weird, I didn't like it. Unless Casey was trying to figure something out on the camera at the time, some setting or something, and that's why she wasn't speaking.
I also didn't like the way Casey was grasping Caylee by the wrists rather than holding Caylee's hands (in a more cooperative and less forceful way) (in the video where Casey was playing on the floor with Caylee.) That's just a personal pet-peeve of mine. But in other pictures, like the ones where Casey and Caylee are in the yard at Troy/Lauren's place, the Oviedo house, Casey is holding Caylee's hand in a normal, gentle way.