I think it's a really good theory, fran. At first, when info about the Smiths was coming in and we all saw how she bends the truth and outright lies, it seemed most likely that she was involved in Gabriel's disappearance to a large extent. However, now that time has passed and nothing has come out that connects her directly to an S.A. adoption plan, I think her culpability is just a matter of her fraudulently filling out the paternity information, advising EJ (incorrectly) about changing jurisdictions and being a part of trying to pressure Logan into signing away his parental rights by telling him he needed to sign if he wanted to see his son again. It's still pretty bad, though, and I think it's probably criminal.
The Smiths
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I think it's a really good theory, fran. At first, when info about the Smiths was coming in and we all saw how she bends the truth and outright lies, it seemed most likely that she was involved in Gabriel's disappearance to a large extent. However, now that time has passed and nothing has come out that connects her directly to an S.A. adoption plan, I think her culpability is just a matter of her fraudulently filling out the paternity information, advising EJ (incorrectly) about changing jurisdictions and being a part of trying to pressure Logan into signing away his parental rights by telling him he needed to sign if he wanted to see his son again. It's still pretty bad, though, and I think it's probably criminal.
Kamille
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I'd still like to know why TPS posted a picture of Gabriel on her FB asking people to pray for him on December 15th. Pray for what?
The Smiths came out of the gate on NG lying about their contact with EJ while she was on the run.
January 7th...
GRACE: How often did the mom -- mommy, 23-year-old Elizabeth Johnson contact you while she was between Tempe, San Antonio, and Miami Beach?
J. SMITH: Well, between.
T. SMITH: Do you mean once she left?
GRACE: Yes.
J. SMITH: She didn`t contact us any between here and there. We only found out when we did the MySpace thing and found her account and then we.
(I find it interesting that JS answered this. Maybe he really didn't know there had been contact between EJ and TS?)
T. SMITH: And then she texted us that message.
(Texted what message? Did she mean myspace private messaged her? Or the message that she didn't really kill Gabriel that she supposedly sent right after her text to LM?)
J. SMITH: We text her and all that.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Now I`ve got that message and it says -- I`ve got it right here. It says, "I am ever worried this e-mail can be traced to where I am, so I probably won`t e-mail again. But I had to let you know, we are all right, because I know you must be worried sick and I am so sorry for that. I really am."
What was she worried about? Why was she worried about being traced if she had done nothing wrong, Tammi?
T. SMITH: Well, once we did start to talk to her, she said that her plan was to keep running.
They also stated during that same interview that they believed at that time, before EJ left, that EJ had physical custody and that LM only had visitation rights?
JULIA: How long was it before the father knew the child was going to be adopted, that the mother and the adoptive parents were planning to put the -- or she was planning to put this baby up for adoption before the father knew?
GRACE: Right. To Jack and Tammi Smith, when did you guys try to get the father to agree and learn that he was not part of this. I believe she represented you at the beginning that he was OK with it?
J. SMITH: She represented in the very beginning that he was back and forth.
GRACE: Yes.
J. SMITH: Back and forth with that. And so he did not have -- we asked to speak with him. He did not have a cell phone at that time. I think he`s living with his father. We couldn`t get a hold of him so that`s when we took the...
(they had no problem reaching him by cell phone on the 22nd when they send that text)
T. SMITH: We were supposed to meet up with him and the father at court. When we went to court that day, it was all settled and set up for us to go have lunch together. And go to the park and have them spend time with the baby and discuss it all.
But when Elizabeth won custody, they just walked past us and left and they didn`t -- they didn`t come back and we waited for about 40 minutes and they didn`t come back.
(they believed she won custody on December 17th?)
GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding, Elizabeth never had formal custody.
T. SMITH: She did. She had -- she had the custody -- physical custody. And then when she went to court, when he was.
GRACE: Let me rephrase. It`s my understanding she had shared custody with the father. They had shared custody.
T. SMITH: No.
GRACE: That he would get to visit. No?
T. SMITH: You`ll have to look at the documents, but I can tell you that she had physical custody and then when they went to court, he was trying to get custody.
J. SMITH: Sure.
T. SMITH: And the judge gave her custody and said that he could have a visit.
GRACE: OK, hold on.
T. SMITH: That`s all I know.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, you`ve got the documents, I`ve got the documents. What do they say and give it to me in a nutshell, Matt.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Mom and dad had shared custody. They had split the week. Mom took her for -- mom took Gabriel for a couple of days, dad took the baby for a couple of days.
So before EJ took off, the Smiths had Gabriel living with them because EJ let them keep him at their home and they apparently believed that she still had full physical custody? When did LM apply for the hearing on the 28th? Was it before or after she left? I thought it was after. If that is the case, they didn't know she had to be back for the 28th? This just keeps getting more confusing the more I look at it.
If the Smiths didn't have anything to do with EJ leaving, why would they lie about their contact with her while she was gone on NG when it's obvious by the text exchange with LM on the 22nd that they were in contact with her?
Going back to their statements on NG right near the beginning is really interesting reading I find.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1001/07/ng.01.html
The Smiths came out of the gate on NG lying about their contact with EJ while she was on the run.
January 7th...
GRACE: How often did the mom -- mommy, 23-year-old Elizabeth Johnson contact you while she was between Tempe, San Antonio, and Miami Beach?
J. SMITH: Well, between.
T. SMITH: Do you mean once she left?
GRACE: Yes.
J. SMITH: She didn`t contact us any between here and there. We only found out when we did the MySpace thing and found her account and then we.
(I find it interesting that JS answered this. Maybe he really didn't know there had been contact between EJ and TS?)
T. SMITH: And then she texted us that message.
(Texted what message? Did she mean myspace private messaged her? Or the message that she didn't really kill Gabriel that she supposedly sent right after her text to LM?)
J. SMITH: We text her and all that.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Now I`ve got that message and it says -- I`ve got it right here. It says, "I am ever worried this e-mail can be traced to where I am, so I probably won`t e-mail again. But I had to let you know, we are all right, because I know you must be worried sick and I am so sorry for that. I really am."
What was she worried about? Why was she worried about being traced if she had done nothing wrong, Tammi?
T. SMITH: Well, once we did start to talk to her, she said that her plan was to keep running.
They also stated during that same interview that they believed at that time, before EJ left, that EJ had physical custody and that LM only had visitation rights?
JULIA: How long was it before the father knew the child was going to be adopted, that the mother and the adoptive parents were planning to put the -- or she was planning to put this baby up for adoption before the father knew?
GRACE: Right. To Jack and Tammi Smith, when did you guys try to get the father to agree and learn that he was not part of this. I believe she represented you at the beginning that he was OK with it?
J. SMITH: She represented in the very beginning that he was back and forth.
GRACE: Yes.
J. SMITH: Back and forth with that. And so he did not have -- we asked to speak with him. He did not have a cell phone at that time. I think he`s living with his father. We couldn`t get a hold of him so that`s when we took the...
(they had no problem reaching him by cell phone on the 22nd when they send that text)
T. SMITH: We were supposed to meet up with him and the father at court. When we went to court that day, it was all settled and set up for us to go have lunch together. And go to the park and have them spend time with the baby and discuss it all.
But when Elizabeth won custody, they just walked past us and left and they didn`t -- they didn`t come back and we waited for about 40 minutes and they didn`t come back.
(they believed she won custody on December 17th?)
GRACE: Now, it`s my understanding, Elizabeth never had formal custody.
T. SMITH: She did. She had -- she had the custody -- physical custody. And then when she went to court, when he was.
GRACE: Let me rephrase. It`s my understanding she had shared custody with the father. They had shared custody.
T. SMITH: No.
GRACE: That he would get to visit. No?
T. SMITH: You`ll have to look at the documents, but I can tell you that she had physical custody and then when they went to court, he was trying to get custody.
J. SMITH: Sure.
T. SMITH: And the judge gave her custody and said that he could have a visit.
GRACE: OK, hold on.
T. SMITH: That`s all I know.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, you`ve got the documents, I`ve got the documents. What do they say and give it to me in a nutshell, Matt.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Mom and dad had shared custody. They had split the week. Mom took her for -- mom took Gabriel for a couple of days, dad took the baby for a couple of days.
So before EJ took off, the Smiths had Gabriel living with them because EJ let them keep him at their home and they apparently believed that she still had full physical custody? When did LM apply for the hearing on the 28th? Was it before or after she left? I thought it was after. If that is the case, they didn't know she had to be back for the 28th? This just keeps getting more confusing the more I look at it.
If the Smiths didn't have anything to do with EJ leaving, why would they lie about their contact with her while she was gone on NG when it's obvious by the text exchange with LM on the 22nd that they were in contact with her?
Going back to their statements on NG right near the beginning is really interesting reading I find.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1001/07/ng.01.html
BeanE
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By 'here' and 'there' I think they mean Tempe and SA. Then around Dec 22, Logan tells them about Eliz's Myspace and they leave a message on it, at which point Eliz messages them, and then phones them. There's one more interview (I believe it's another NG) that makes it clearer.
Then they've said they kept in touch via messaging and phone, until Dec 27 when Eliz refuses to talk by phone anymore. They continue messaging.
The period of time they had no contact is Dec 18 to around Dec 22.
I think the article the other day where Logan showed the reporter his text from them shows a date of Dec 22.
Then they've said they kept in touch via messaging and phone, until Dec 27 when Eliz refuses to talk by phone anymore. They continue messaging.
The period of time they had no contact is Dec 18 to around Dec 22.
I think the article the other day where Logan showed the reporter his text from them shows a date of Dec 22.
AZlawyer
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This is very odd. It sounds like the Smiths were actually at court with Elizabeth on the 17th, but somehow walked away with the impression that she had "won custody" and Logan was only entitled to "a visit." The court records are perfectly clear that E & L were awarded temporary joint custody, switching off on Wednesdays and Sundays, until a final hearing (which was to have been held a couple of months later).
DairyGirl
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It could be a possibility but I really think the Smiths knew that EJ was running and going to San Antonio and possiblity sent her there. They knew full well that she was selling everything she owned , including her dogs and had rented her room. Why would she do that prior to just taking Gabriel to his father? I also believe that they gave her the GPS and that is one of the reasons that LE is looking at them as POI's. I don't know if they were sending her to TN where they have a home and also know the adoption person, JM or if they had another plan involving San Antonio but I do believe they knew she was going there. Now, once she got there and found out that LM was playing hard ball she very well could have changed her plans. I am certain that the Smiths plan did not include Gabriel going to another family and it may be at this point that EJ went rogue. She may have lined up another family from the internet. Maybe even before she went to San Antonio but I still believe that the Smiths had something to do with her going to Antonio or at least her leaving AZ. The plan may have been to change jurisdictions and when they knew that wouldn't work EJ went into her own plan.
Kamille
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And LM's first "visit" was supposed to be on Sunday the 20th so why wouldn't the Smiths think it was odd that EJ was taking Gabriel to see him in the evening on a Friday? :waitasec:
And even though they had limited communication, mostly myspace and texting according to the Smiths, when EJ was in SA, they knew that she had sold her dogs, her laptop, her jewelery, rented a room in her trailer and had cash her last social assistance check to get the money to go to SA.
And when EJ left, there was no hearing scheduled for the 28th and the Smiths believed she still had full custody. LM called for an emergency hearing sometime after she left. But he apparently knew she was going out of town to visit "friends" for the holidays and was okay with that.
So EJ told LM she was going out of town for the holidays and told the Smiths that she was taking Gabriel to visit LM? And none of them had any idea what she was up to until the 22nd? And at that time the Smiths texted LM about signing the adoption papers, he said no, and "a woman" called EJ on the 23rd yelling at her? That's what I'm getting so far.
If Eliz is Borderline Personality Disordered, I can totally see her walking out of the hearing and telling them whatever lie she wanted her reality to be, or whatever lie would manipulate the Smiths into doing what SHE wanted them to do. Maybe that included playing on their sympathy enough to fund her trip out of there, to whatever degree. Maybe she sold the same story to her grandfather too, who as far as I know, didn't file a missing person report or report his car missing either. Did he have more than one car to use?
I personally have a BPD in the family by marriage and have SEEN her walk out of court hearings and lie outrageously about the ruling. She was going to WIN, by God, even if it was in her own falsely created reality. She lies so much that some family members believe she is so separated from reality that she believes her own lies. I don't buy that, but it sure does manipulate those who do!!
TearsforCaylee
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Fran ...
Good theory and possible, except TS herself allegedly admitted in her own statements (I believe on National TV no less) that she "knew" EJ was going to run. I can try to find the actual statements and provide a link, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading/hearing this directly from TS herself. Hence that would nullify the theory of the Ss's not knowing. I agree though that maybe just maybe they initially knew something but then EJ went rogue on them. But at the same time, I'm still not completely convinced of that either with them putting themselves in the limelight like they have since the beginning. What are they trying to prove? If you have nothing to hide (or coverup), then why not get out of the picture and just let LE do their job? They will find out the truth soon enough and that other party can be brought to justice. Unless of course, you don't really "want" justice because you know that would mean spending some time behind bars.
The only way I see a person possibly NOT staying out of the media is for potential damage control as well as to try to further impede an investigation by police because they have something to hide. Sometimes the media can help you along with that, either willingly or unwillingly .... think G&C in the Anthony case. The Ss's are to this case what I believe G&C in many ways were to the Anthony case ... fake it til you make it and taint the public's beliefs/feelings on the issue all the while potentially misleading LE in the process. I think that's what TPS and JS are trying to potentially do now. Manipulate, cover and distort the truth anyway they can in order to make it harder for LE to really find out what that is because somewhere behind the curtain I believe the Ss's know they are going to be found behind it somewhere. But that's just my personal opinion ... you can give me my two cents back later :innocent:
I think you all are right that they did not know she was going to leave.....But, I do not think TS would let G go just like that. I agree that TS was on the phone yelling at EJ. I think that is when the other plan came into place so TS could have G. Check my post in THings that make you go hmmmmm.
It could also be as simple as the Smiths lying about thinking EJ still had custody, because if they KNEW she did NOT at that time, and that Logan had LEGAL custodial rights, it sure would foil that 30 day abandonment countdown. They needed to get EJ out of town, and fast.
Has the grandfather said in any of his interviews if he had met the Smiths? EJ borrowed his car. Would the Smiths know she had transportation and where she got it? She told the grandfather,iirc, that she needed it for a job interview. I believe she borrowed it on the 18th. So it is possible the only one who knew she had transportation was the grandfather.
BeanE
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They were definitely at the courthouse, but I think not in the room while the hearing took place. Personally, I think Eliz lied to them about the outcome of the hearing.
But... that's a good question for the Questions for the Family thread. I will add it.
BeanE
Inactive
Eliz could easily have presented her selling the dogs and renting the rooms as needing money because Logan was gone and she didn't have a job and income.
There's no evidence that the Smiths gave Eliz the GPS. Only one unsupported rumor from one source, and an angry one at that.
Eliz told her grandfather that *she* was making plans.
I don't get why everyone thinks Eliz is a mindless little will-o-the-wisp saint. I haven't seen any evidence to support it. Quite the opposite.
The Smiths are without question despicable. Eliz is more so.
Prof
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You ask the good questions
I have no reason to believe that the grandfather has ever met the Smiths, and I am willing to bet because of EJ's quest for a "closed" adoption that she would not let that happenI would think that the Smith's knew that she had borrowed that car, but I do not remember their statement on such as far as borrowed or owned -- they did know that she had the car*, because they mentioned specifically on NG that EJ had the GPS on when they met her at the Church to return Gabriel to her on the 18th
Prof
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I have to wonder about this:
"Meanwhile, Tempe detectives have processed a GPS device that may have been used by Elizabeth.
Investigators say the information from the GPS, including its origin, cannot be released."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/s...begin-for-missing/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx
If the GPS was purchased by EJ or came with the car, then why would they need to keep that under wraps?
Then again, TS at one point said her own GPS was dead -- I'll look for the link
"Meanwhile, Tempe detectives have processed a GPS device that may have been used by Elizabeth.
Investigators say the information from the GPS, including its origin, cannot be released."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/s...begin-for-missing/xgsbK2cK80iD5ZWBC0ifjg.cspx
If the GPS was purchased by EJ or came with the car, then why would they need to keep that under wraps?
Then again, TS at one point said her own GPS was dead -- I'll look for the link
Or maybe... she had realized the papers would never get signed by LM and so they were on to Plan B. IMO, she could have allowed EJ to provide LM his visit in order to deflect any suspicion or concern while they worked out the details of the "getaway." To me it is all that makes sense. Tammi gave EJ the GPS... so, I think its doubtful that she didn't know EJ was gong to take a trip. If the underground/secret placement system operates like I think it would have to to stay secret, there would probably never be any direct contact between one handoff to another. In order to keep everyone using the system securely "undercover/hidden" once they are in it, they would have to be protected from their own second guessing of their actions. Exposing one part of the ring, would compromise anyone who might have used it. My guess is it's as if...once you're in, there's a point where there's no turning back. Has anyone considered that perhaps old Craig Cherry might have provided the transport to Victoria and back, thereby giving the cell phone ping, explaining his involvement and even the possible reason for placing him on the possible fathers list in case he got caught with the baby. He and Tammi have such "robust" backgrounds in scam-like things. When I looked at his legal history, I noticed he has 12 separate legal charges for things like taking the identity of another (doesn't say whether he pretended to be someone he wasn't or if it was internet cred card scamming) and also tampering/changing with auto license plates. Seems reasonable that if you didn't want to be tracked, you'd change the car or the identifieer so LE wouldn't stop you. If EJ or th Ss say they don't know where a baby is, it's possible. If someone in the underground took her baby from her and gave to another person without EJ knowing wanything about the underground person but after being told they were "safe" she might not have asked questions, she may not have seen the adoptive parents or their car or know a darn thing about them. But the person who arranged it all surely does. And whether that is TS or her friend in TN, someone needs topress them until it hurts!
Amster
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Thanks
Has anyone verified that Tammi has connections to Children Without a Voice USA?
They may be elsewhere, but here it looks like Alpharetta, GA
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Alpha...ildren-Without-a-Voice-USA/37718140765?v=info
http://www.myspace.com/childrenwithoutavoice
Another - for Africa
http://www.myspace.com/cwavusa_africa
Also, are there other connections to child abuse, adoption, or mission work that are mentioned or verified?
I have been looking all over for a post Tammi made where she said she repeated the same bible quote about 500 times (or something like that) to people in Africa while on a mission there. I also think in that post Tammi claimed to be a minister? Anyway, you don't have to post the quote, but if you know where it's at and if that is what she claimed, please post that.
They may be elsewhere, but here it looks like Alpharetta, GA
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Alpha...ildren-Without-a-Voice-USA/37718140765?v=info
http://www.myspace.com/childrenwithoutavoice
Another - for Africa
http://www.myspace.com/cwavusa_africa
Also, are there other connections to child abuse, adoption, or mission work that are mentioned or verified?
I have been looking all over for a post Tammi made where she said she repeated the same bible quote about 500 times (or something like that) to people in Africa while on a mission there. I also think in that post Tammi claimed to be a minister? Anyway, you don't have to post the quote, but if you know where it's at and if that is what she claimed, please post that.
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