Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[screecher]

... show obvious signs of mental instability bordering on 2 or 3 different disorders.....

I do not (nor would anyone responsible that I know) label him by surmising any personality disorder from the public portion of him that we have seen.

bolded and underlined by me

What 2 or 3 disorders?

I'm also of the with mindset with sorrell skye.

 

[lisasalinger]

At about 43:07 in the trial video below, Nel refers to the white phone as OP's phone.

The white phone was the one that was found buried beneath the bloody towels. By extrapolation, I think this was the phone that was referred to by Moller (cell phone analyst) as OP's business phone. According to phone logs, OP did not use this white phone to call Stander or Netcare (911) on the morning that he shot & killed Reeva. Therefore, IMO, there was no reason for this white phone to be in the bathroom.

OP's other phone (his personal phone) was the one that OP used to make calls to Stander & to Netcare (911). OP also claimed that he put this phone (personal phone) in his pocket before he picked Reeva up & carried her downstairs. That same phone was the one that went missing from the crime scene.

The black phone with the cover off that was found partially beneath the floor mat (near to where OP's gun was found) was Reeva's phone.

I'm so glad I listened to this portion of testimony again, because I now know which phone belonged to whom.

I think OP planted his business phone (the white phone) beneath the bloody towels in the bathroom when he made his unexplained trip upstairs after Dr. Stipp arrived.


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday 15 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

Yes, that white phone seen in the photos was definitely proven to be the business phone ending in 4949 (that he last used the first half of the day on Feb 13).

OP testified that after he pulled Reeva out of the toilet room and put her on the floor, he ran to get his phone from the nightstand (hence the blood cast off on the left side of the wall, according to him).

He would not have grabbed both phones, he only needed one.

Phone records proved that he was using the "stolen" phone that ended in 0020 that whole afternoon/evening of Feb 13 and morning of Feb 14.

This was also interesting to me during cross-examination:

Nel asks OP if it’s possible that the white phone (shown in the photo) was found underneath the towels. Oscar’s response, “I don’t remember placing the phone anywhere my Lady, so it is possible.” Interesting choice of words.

 

[BritsKate]

That reminds me...a few are on the record as surmising he has hallmarks of NPD. I found it interesting as it's been discussed here before. I was married to someone dx'd with NPD/APD for a long time - it's tough to guess from so far a distance - but I would agree there are troubling signs to suggest it's a possibility. My bet is his psych definitely will not mention NPD, even if such a diagnosis is accurate. A clinical psychologist, forensic psychiatrist and a criminologist are quoted below.

"Abusive men suffer from pathological jealousy of their partners," said Van der Hoven. "I haven't diagnosed him but he also shows signs of someone with a narcissistic personality disorder.

"These kinds of individuals have a grandiose sense of self-importance… However, their self-esteem is very fragile and when this is threatened, they can become violent," she said. "They don't know how to show sympathy for other people."

He can’t diagnose Pistorius with narcissistic personality disorder, without consulting him, but De Klerk agrees he demonstrates the hallmarks, especially an overweening desire for attention, and a lack of remorse.

Carr is equally damning of Pistorius’s performance. In the radio interview, he calls Pistorius vain, driven by image, living a life “centred around performance”, someone who clearly has anger and impulse control issues.

Carr finds “very strange” reports that Pistorius employed a PR team from England (since dispatched) immediately after the shooting, quickly returned to training, has been flirting, is in a new relationship with a 19-year-old, yet presents himself in court as “this vulnerable bloke suffering from chronic post-traumatic stress despite being on a cocktail of medication”.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/signs-he-has-narcissistic-disorder-1.1471552#.U2bkv_ldWMM
http://www.lifeinsighttherapy.co.uk/blog/
http://www.all4women.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius-suffering-from-narcissistic-personality-disorder
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...oscar-pistorius-please-stand-up/#.U2bkp_ldWMM
https://soundcloud.com/jacaranda-fm/clinical-psychologist-on-oscar

 

[lisasalinger]

Thank you Liesbeth.Those are good images. I had a hard time depicting just where the two damages are on the wall. If I understand it correctly, there was one bullet hole mark on the wall, put in evidence as E and another mark from the ricochet in evidence as F. I probably should have made a distinction between the ricochet and the fragment paths. I'm not sure if Mangena postulated that more than one fragment hit her in the back, but I think that two were found under the magazine rack.

In the first photo that I posted of my recreation, I had to guess at everything about the bullet, ricochet, and fragment paths, and at Reeva's position.

In the second one I had the bullet path (laser), but I had to guess at the ricochet path, fragment path and Reevs's position. Reevas position etc. There are just too many variables to be accurate. Whatever the path the fragments took, I think it is quite possible that they did hit her as Mangena testified

I am glad that you liked my graphics. Before I did them, I had the idea that the shot that missed was kind of a wild shot. Now it sure seems to me that all 4 shots were aimed, with deadly intent. It lends weight, in my mind, to the theory that he could see her through a splintered space in the door.

Here is a perfect pic to show you exactly how the missed shot hit the wall.

It grazes the wall along E, hits head on to F, and then a fragment hits G.

The yellow tape measure depicts the corner of the wall.

NOTE: I removed photo, it was too large. See my attachment in post #286 below.

 

[Viper]

hi everyone im new here sorry this is my first post but ive been reading through this great forum on this case (oscar p) over 500 pages took me a while

i think pt have proved defo murder with intent just on him grabbing a gun and going to the danger screeming get out my house but no were did he say or ill shoot you so didnt even give said person time to leave by what ever means possible....also he never checked outside the bathroom window for other intruders after he fired so had no thought another could of climbed in behind him after he ran back for the bat call help on balcony ect.

I think that dent on the metal plate on bath was caused by the bat by oscer hitting it to scare rs in his rage

i also think he did something to her that was so bad he would of ended up in prison hence jeans in garden and jeans inside out so had no choice but silenced her

Welcome to the party!

BIB. Not necessarily. There is no evidence of that. There is only evidence of an argument between the two of them. If OP was trying to avoid a prison sentence by killing Reeva he did a really bad job of it. In fact, in OPs case the exact opposite is true. He killed Reeva and is trying to avoid a prison sentence as a result of that action.

 

[lisasalinger]

Oops, hopefully I didn't blow the margins with that last photo. I'll post it as an attachment.

 

[homegirl]

At about 43:07 in the trial video below, Nel refers to the white phone as OP's phone.



The white phone was the one that was found buried beneath the bloody towels. By extrapolation, I think this was the phone that was referred to by Moller (cell phone analyst) as OP's business phone. According to phone logs, OP did not use this white phone to call Stander or Netcare (911) on the morning that he shot & killed Reeva. Therefore, IMO, there was no reason for this white phone to be in the bathroom.

OP's other phone (his personal phone) was the one that OP used to make calls to Stander & to Netcare (911). OP also claimed that he put this phone (personal phone) in his pocket before he picked Reeva up & carried her downstairs. That same phone was the one that went missing from the crime scene.

The black phone with the cover off that was found partially beneath the floor mat (near to where OP's gun was found) was Reeva's phone.

I'm so glad I listened to this portion of testimony again, because I now know which phone belonged to whom.

I think OP planted his business phone (the white phone) beneath the bloody towels in the bathroom when he made his unexplained trip upstairs after Dr. Stipp arrived.


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday 15 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

BBM
IIRC Samantha Taylor testified that OP always plugged his business phone into the charger in the kitchen in the evenings. And that he always kept his personal phone with him all of the time.

 

[BritsKate]

Welcome to the party!

BIB. Not necessarily. There is no evidence of that. There is only evidence of an argument between the two of them. If OP was trying to avoid a prison sentence by killing Reeva he did a really bad job of it. In fact, in OPs case the exact opposite is true. He killed Reeva and is trying to avoid a prison sentence as a result of that action.

I get what you're saying but considering the fact he's never been forced to be accountable for anything in his adult life, and quite possibly far longer, is it reasonable to conclude he believed he would go to prison - or even be charged - for her murder?

I really believe he thought if he said it was an intruder all would be forgiven and forgotten. He was, after all, the only (living) witness. He's denied it, but there are allegations that Oscar espoused when arrested he'd beat the murder charge. "I'll survive. I always win."

I think something happened that night too he knew could put his beloved image, if not career and sponsorships as well, into jeopardy and he had to silence Reeva. I don't think a prison term, much less a trial, was ever even a plausible scenario in his mind.

JMO

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...ar-said-he-ll-win-case-1.1486209#.U2bro_ldWMM

 

[Carmelita]

bolded and underlined by me

What 2 or 3 disorders?

I'm also of the with mindset with sorrell skye.

Hi Screecher and thanks


Paranoid personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, grandiosity, and a pinch of inferiority complex.

Again I do not think that he meets the diagnostic criteria of any disorder or complex, (nor would I have any way of knowing if he did) I think he shows certain traits that are found in people that do have those disorders or complex.

I have said it before and I’ll say it again, I find his mind a labyrinth of fascinating and complex enigmas. Here is a man sitting before a judge battling for his life and he refuses to admit that he mistakenly fired a gun in a restaurant. I believe he is dull but not an idiot, intellectually he has to know that the judge will not accept this physical impossibility. Yet there is something internal, emotionally that will not allow him to accept this charge. It can’t be that Roux told him it would be good for his defense, he has to have been counseled that it would be bad for his defense, yet he persists in this childlike denial.

He reminds me of a toddler who puts his hands over his eyes and says, “You can’t see me.”

IMO he had no business owning a firearm but at this point that is neither here or there.

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/oscar-pistorius-trial-to-resume-monday-102765.html

It's believed that a psychologist may testify on Pistorius' long-held fear of violent crime, with the athlete recounting incidents, including an alleged assault and attempted highway shooting, where he says he was the target of crime before. Prosecutors note Pistorius never reported them to police.

I'd love to see Nel get another opportunity to debunk that OP lie, but it's hard to believe Roux is that dumb. He may be that desperate though.

​

 

[acejase]

Welcome to the party!

BIB. Not necessarily. There is no evidence of that. There is only evidence of an argument between the two of them. If OP was trying to avoid a prison sentence by killing Reeva he did a really bad job of it. In fact, in OPs case the exact opposite is true. He killed Reeva and is trying to avoid a prison sentence as a result of that action.

thanks viper
im just putting forward a motive as this is a theory thread ...

none knows what the row was about so we can only surmise
to it....

im thinking after the row maybe about her seeing her ex he wanted some extra loving and she wouldn't put out so tried to help himself hence jeans on garden and other pair inside out maybe even add duvet on floor to the equation then she fled to toilet threatening to call police and ...bang bang bang bang

 

[homegirl]

Oops, hopefully I didn't blow the margins with that last photo. I'll post it as an attachment.

Wow, that's a great photo! Thanks so much for posting it.Eureka, that clears things up. I am going to go change my trajectory paths and see what happens. Was the photo shown in court?

 

[Viper]

I get what you're saying but considering the fact he's never been forced to be accountable for anything in his adult life, and quite possibly far longer, is it reasonable to conclude he believed he would go to prison - or even be charged - for her murder?

I really believe he thought if he said it was an intruder all would be forgiven and forgotten. He was, after all, the only (living) witness. He's denied it, but there are allegations that Oscar espoused when arrested he'd beat the murder charge. "I'll survive. I always win."

I think something happened that night too he knew could put his beloved image, if not career and sponsorships as well, into jeopardy and he had to silence Reeva. I don't think a prison term, much less a trial, was ever even a plausible scenario in his mind.

JMO

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...ar-said-he-ll-win-case-1.1486209#.U2bro_ldWMM

I don't know, but if you disregard his fame and the fact that he was handsome and he had overcome what seemed like insurmountable odds to achieve success and fortune, he is still just a man that freaked out and murdered his girlfriend. That is really the bottom line. And it happens everyday. We really have no knowledge of some deep dark secret that Reeva learned of that night, or some crime against her that OP had committed that night that led to him killing her to keep it a secret.

I don't pay much attention to my local news, but I would bet if I turned on the nightly broadcast tonight another man has killed his girlfriend this week over some stupid dispute that would be incomprehensible to me why someone would do that. The fact that OP argued with her while she was trapped in the WC for 15 minutes is proof enough for me that he was a maniac. He did not need to silence her to keep some secret, he just needed to kill her for his own psychopathic reasons.

JMO

 

[Carmelita]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/05/oscar-pistorius-trial-to-resume-monday-102765.html

I'd love to see Nel get another opportunity to debunk that OP lie, but it's hard to believe Roux is that dumb. He may be that desperate though.

​

IMO Nel's prosecuting style in this case leaves much to be desired and I don't think his antics have slipped past the judge as sound and reasonable questioning.

 

[BritsKate]

Hi Screecher and thanks


Paranoid personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, grandiosity, and a pinch of inferiority complex.

Again I do not think that he meets the diagnostic criteria of any disorder or complex, (nor would I have any way of knowing if he did) I think he shows certain traits that are found in people that do have those disorders or complex.

I have said it before and I’ll say it again, I find his mind a labyrinth of fascinating and complex enigmas. Here is a man sitting before a judge battling for his life and he refuses to admit that he mistakenly fired a gun in a restaurant. I believe he is dull but not an idiot, intellectually he has to know that the judge will not accept this physical impossibility. Yet there is something internal, emotionally that will not allow him to accept this charge. It can’t be that Roux told him it would be good for his defense, he has to have been counseled that it would be bad for his defense, yet he persists in this childlike denial.

He reminds of a toddler who puts his hands over his eyes and says, “You can’t see me.”

IMO he had no business owning a firearm but at this point that is neither here or there.

Since I'm American, I much prefer the DSM classifications over the ICD. I'll use those. NPD is a cluster B, axis II, personality disorder. It's close siblings are antisocial, borderline, and histrionic. Very, very often when someone is afflicted with a cluster B, they're actually comorbid, meaning they have more than one psychiatric disorder - overlapping - which makes a proper diagnosis very difficult. So, you're very likely correct that he has more than one disorder. (Grandiosity is one of the hallmarks of NPD - it would be inclusive with this dx.)

PPD is a cluster A personality disorder. It's at odds with a dx of NPD though because PPD usually features social isolation, detachment, and poor self-image.

The Paranoid Personality Disorder* is characterized by a pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of other people. People with this disorder assume that others are out to harm them, take advantage of them, or humiliate them in some way. They put a lot of effort into protecting themselves and keeping their distance from others. They are known to preemptively attack others whom they feel threatened by. They tend to hold grudges, are litigious, and display pathological jealousy. Distorted thinking is evident. Their perception of the environment includes reading malevolent intentions into genuinely harmless, innocuous comments or behavior, and dwelling on past slights. For these reasons, they do not confide in others and do not allow themselves to develop close relationships. Their emotional life tends to be dominated by distrust and hostility.

http://www.sevencounties.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=479&cn=8

 

[Carmelita]

The fact that OP argued with her while she was trapped in the WC for 15 minutes is proof enough for me that he was a maniac. He did not need to silence her to keep some secret, he just needed to kill her for his own psychopathic reasons.

JMO

*snipped by me for brevity*

This is not a "fact" it is a theory of what could have happened.

Neither is there any proof that Oscar is a psychopath.

 

[Really?]

thanks viper
im just putting forward a motive as this is a theory thread ...

none knows what the row was about so we can only surmise
to it....

im thinking after the row maybe about her seeing her ex he wanted some extra loving and she wouldn't put out so tried to help himself hence jeans on garden and other pair inside out maybe even add duvet on floor to the equation then she fled to toilet threatening to call police and ...bang bang bang bang

thats what I figure happened as well.......I'll put money down (j/k) that he badgered the heck out of her that night about her coffee date and what will be aired on TV re: Jamaica mon.

also..........:wagon:

 

[Carmelita]

Since I'm American, I much prefer the DSM classifications over the ICD. I'll use those. NPD is a cluster B, axis II, personality disorder. It's close siblings are antisocial, borderline, and histrionic. Very, very often when someone is afflicted with a cluster B, they're actually comorbid, meaning they have more than one psychiatric disorder - overlapping - which makes a proper diagnosis very difficult. So, you're very likely correct that he has more than one disorder.

PPD is a cluster A personality disorder. It's at odds with a dx of NPD though because PPD usually features social isolation, detachment, and poor self-image.



http://www.sevencounties.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=479&cn=8

Yes the DSM V is what I am basing my opinion of Oscar’s shared traits with people that have diagnosed disorders. He is not diagnosed with any of them and I do not believe he suffers a combination of any of them. I only think he has some of the traits of each. He is certainly nowhere near to meeting the criteria for histrionic personality disorder nor would he fit any of the widely accepted preexisting criteria for the disorder.

And just to be clear I did not say nor do I believe that he diagnostically meets the criteria of any of the disorders/complexes on their own or comorbidly . Although I do think he has disordered thinking.

 

[sorrell skye]

Hi Screecher and thanks


Paranoid personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, grandiosity, and a pinch of inferiority complex.

Again I do not think that he meets the diagnostic criteria of any disorder or complex, (nor would I have any way of knowing if he did) I think he shows certain traits that are found in people that do have those disorders or complex.

I have said it before and I’ll say it again, I find his mind a labyrinth of fascinating and complex enigmas. Here is a man sitting before a judge battling for his life and he refuses to admit that he mistakenly fired a gun in a restaurant. I believe he is dull but not an idiot, intellectually he has to know that the judge will not accept this physical impossibility. Yet there is something internal, emotionally that will not allow him to accept this charge. It can’t be that Roux told him it would be good for his defense, he has to have been counseled that it would be bad for his defense, yet he persists in this childlike denial.

He reminds me of a toddler who puts his hands over his eyes and says, “You can’t see me.”

IMO he had no business owning a firearm but at this point that is neither here or there.

BBM

I think the reason OP has refused to accept responsibility on the lesser charges is because his sole concern is protecting his image & his brand as the Blade Runner.

If he had admitted to any of the lesser firearms charges, his ability to secure sponsorship contracts and his future as a competitive athlete would have been history, even if he were to be miraculously acquitted of the more serious charge of murder (which I don't expect to happen, but I think that OP believes he won't be convicted on that charge, or any of the other charges).

I think OP believes he'll be acquitted of all the charges - the firearms charges as well as the murder charge. I think he also believes that he'll return to his profession as a competitive athlete, with lucrative sponsorship deals, and I think he believes he'll just pick up where he left off.

I think in his self-centered mind he is convinced that if he plays the role of a hapless victim of circumstances hard enough and long enough during this trial that the Judge and the two assessors will also see him as a victim of circumstances.

IMO, OP is in for a rude awakening when cold hard reality comes to call on the day the verdict is delivered.

 

[Viper]

thanks viper
im just putting forward a motive as this is a theory thread ...

none knows what the row was about so we can only surmise
to it....

im thinking after the row maybe about her seeing her ex he wanted some extra loving and she wouldn't put out so tried to help himself hence jeans on garden and other pair inside out maybe even add duvet on floor to the equation then she fled to toilet threatening to call police and ...bang bang bang bang

Reeva brought a thoughtfully created Valentines Day gift and a card too, she was romantically involved with Ozzie. She stayed with him in his home, in his bed. Why would anybody think that she "would not put out?" I'm not following...