Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[swissmonster]

Has it ever been considered that reeva had her hands splayed out in front of her before receiving the first bullet? I recall hearing today that the grazing wound on her hand showed that she could not have had her hands on her head to protect herself. So I wonder...she screamed bloodcurdling screams because he had smashed the door with the cricket bat first, saw her through the crack, she saw him also, she put her hands in front of her, screaming no no no please please?

 

[Emz73]

To your first query: I don't know.

To the second: So why is she screaming in such a 'blood curdling' fashion? She's behind a door so can't see what he has in his hands.

So her terror is due to either her seeing his gun prior to her closing the toilet door? or she heard him *advertiser censored* it? or he told her what he was going to do?

The latter is the more risky or outlandish theory, but someone else posited the theory that the male shouts for help are him 'taking the pxxs' out of her cries for help. As ask yourself another question: he's sneaking up on a burgular, why is he shouting for help prior to the shots?

I don't know the answers either: I'm hoping other posters who know the case better will curb or correct.

Or because he was shouting "get the **** out of my house" and wacking the toilet door with the cricket bat.

 

[LaLaw2000]

As this is the theory thread, I want to put my two cents worth in.

I honestly think Reeva either saw or heard something that would ruin OP. I know he said he had the cricket bat lodged again the bedroom door. Maybe Reeva threw jeans out the bathroom window and had the plan to tell OP she was going downstairs to get a drink of water or juice. She was going to actually leave.

OP may have prevented Reeva from leaving earlier. A former girlfriend stated he'd done that to her, IIRC. Maybe OP was dozing off to sleep and heard the window raise, then he called out to her and then ran to the bathroom with his gun to make her come back to the bedroom. Reeva got into the toilet room and locked the door. OP started shooting at the bathroom door, Reeva let out the blood curdling scream and he knocked the door panel in with the cricket bat. The bat could have clattered to the floor getting blood on it, and in his moving around the blood got on the other side also, or Reeva's blood dripped onto it when he picked her up.

I believe OP knew he was shooting Reeva and felt he had to make sure she didn't tell anyone what she'd found out about him.

I think OP may very well be gay and the other girlfriends were cover for it. (no shame in being gay, but maybe he thought so) The guy living downstairs may have been OP's lover. For some reason, that guy does not want to be under oath in that courtroom and seems to be protected from it. No way do I believe he didn't hear anything.

OP should have been drug tested that morning at the police station. He could have been in a steroid rage when he shot Reeva although he'd had a temper in the past as well.

Theories are just theories and mine cannot be proven in the least, but it is what I think happened. It is what I have thought happened from the beginning.

I believe OP to be a total coward, murderer, and the guns were his courage.

MOO

 

[HauntsForHope]

My theory is that she either saw him watching *advertiser censored* or sexting on his phone and was upset. It turned into an argument.
He chased her upstairs where she locked the bedroom door. He broke in and hit her, leaving blood on the wall, she ran into the bathroom with her phone to call for help, he followed, threw her jeans out the window so she couldn't leave, hitting and kicking he door and metal plate. Became enraged, got the gun from the bedroom and shot through the door, intending to kill her. He had to stop her from calling the police on him for hitting her. If she called police his career would be ruined. The first shot sent her back onto the magazine rack. When he heard it move from her falling on it, he aimed at the sound and fired several more times, with intent to kill. jmo

 

[BatGunKick]

:seeya:
Hello all - hope you're all watching the livestream here:
(currently they're on lunch)
http://enca.com/oscartrial/

 

[Suthrnqt]

:seeya:
Hello all - hope you're all watching the livestream here:
(currently they're on lunch)
http://enca.com/oscartrial/

A new thread is open for discussion, also.

 

[HauntsForHope]

Livestream here also...

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-stream/

 

[BatGunKick]

A new thread is open for discussion, also.

is this the new one? , lol I'm a bit confused :facepalm:

 

[BatGunKick]

Regarding the windows and sound traveling:

Who's to say the small toilet window wasn't open the whole time? (Until perhaps Oscar closed it when he finally got through the toilet door and to Reeva at the end and closed it, not wanting to draw further attention?) OR: It was closed, and Reeva opened it to scream for help?

From crime photos we know the far left window is the toilet window.
On the night of the incident the toilet door would have been closed when Reeva was in the cubicle, meaning said toilet window would have been seen as a "black shape" to witnesses - near impossible to see if the pane was slid up and open or down and closed.

NB: Dr. Stipp testified 'the windows' looked closed to him when Dr. Stipp was on the balcony. Note that the toilet light was not working. If the toilet window was open for sound to carry, being a window that slides up and down, not opening outwards, Dr Stipp then wouldn't have been able to tell if the toilet window was open, he may have assumed it was closed and commenting on the bathroom windows, as he did in his testimony. Yet the toilet window could indeed have been open for sound to carry.

possibility (1)
Let's say small toilet window was open from earlier in the evening - (toilet is after all where one would want immediate ventilation for hygiene purposes) while they were up arguing. Sound would travel to ear witnesses. It remains open and screaming from Reeva plus her cries for help, plus Oscar mocking help, plus bat bashing, plus Reeva screaming escalating when she unlocks and ventures out, and ultimately gunshots, all carries to witnesses from inside the cubicle. Oscar, opening the unlocked door when Reeva has been shot, simply closes the window immediately not wanting to draw attention. Then, because toilet window may have been closed at this point, sound of Oscar posing the door as locked and door being pried open may not have traveled to witness ears (?)

possibility (2)
Let's say small toilet window was closed from earlier in the evening. When Reeva runs the first time to the toilet and locks herself in, surely it's within reason that she opens the toilet window and begins screaming as he's bashing with the bat. I would have done that for sure! Oscar then realizes too much attention is being drawn now in the dead of night, that neighbours will hear. He goes to get the gun, at this point Reeva unlocks and opens the toilet door, sees OP coming, explaining why intense screams traveled to Burger/Johnson. She just closes the toilet door as she is shot - not managing to lock it. Then gunshots and Reeva's screams fading would all travel to witness ears. as above: Oscar, opening the unlocked door when Reeva has been shot, simply closes the window immediately not wanting to draw attention. Then, because toilet window may have been closed at this point, sound of Oscar posing the door as locked and door being pried open may not have traveled to witness ears (?)

Furthermore, there was testimony that Oscar returned upstairs while Dr Stipp and stander were attending to Reeva downstairs. Could he have gone upstairs to open the bathroom window - having suddenly realized he needed it for the point of entry for the 'intruder' - after all, the toilet window he closed was too small to say the intruder came through it, but the bathroom window he could say was the point of entry for the intruder.

 

[AJ_DS]

I'll get things rolling…

1. OP said that he attempted to pick-up and carry Reeva's body, but couldn't

2. OP said he called Stander to help him pick-up and carry Reeva's body

… so far it makes sense

3. OP said that he cleared the way from the bathroom to the outside of his house (i.e. fully open bedroom doors and front door) because he wouldn't be able to do so whilst carrying Reeva's body in his arms.

… this makes sense on it's own, but considering what OP said in 1.-2., it doesn't : why would you clear the way in anticipation of something you can't do ?

4. OP said he picked-up Reeva's body and carried her all the way from the bathroom to the bottom of the stairs without ever stopping to put her down… even kept on carrying her when Johan and Carice were trying to reason with him to put her down.

… this makes no sense whatsoever : about 5 minutes prior to moving Reeva, OP said he attempted to do so but failed, causing him to call Stander for assistance.

… Stander was OP's very first phone call… and it had had nothing to do with not being able to move Reeva on his own and requiring assistance

5. OP said he wanted to move Reeva because Netcare advised him to take her to the Hospital

… this makes even less sense : Netcare's business model is entirely based on sending ambulances and paramedics on location and patients to emergency rooms… furthermore, there would be severe liability issues in telling callers to act in such a way.

… plus OP had NOT called Netcare yet : Netcare was OP's second phone call AFTER Stander.

… Stander was OP's very first phone call… it had had nothing to do with not being able to move Reeva on his own and requiring assistance because OP could indeed move Reeva on his own… AND it had nothing to do with the alleged directive from Netcare because Netcare would NEVER give such directives and that phoe call hadn't occurred yet.

IMO, OP wanted Stander to take Reeva to the hospital while he stayed home to figure out the best way to cover-up the crime scene with his intruder story

 

[Hatfield]

I'll get things rolling…

1. OP said that he attempted to pick-up and carry Reeva's body, but couldn't

2. OP said he called Stander to help him pick-up and carry Reeva's body

… so far it makes sense

3. OP said that he cleared the way from the bathroom to the outside of his house (i.e. fully open bedroom doors and front door) because he wouldn't be able to do so whilst carrying Reeva's body in his arms.

… this makes sense on it's own, but considering what OP said in 1.-2., it doesn't : why would you clear the way in anticipation of something you can't do ?

4. OP said he picked-up Reeva's body and carried her all the way from the bathroom to the bottom of the stairs without ever stopping to put her down… even kept on carrying her when Johan and Carice were trying to reason with him to put her down.

… this makes no sense whatsoever : about 5 minutes prior to moving Reeva, OP said he attempted to do so but failed, causing him to call Stander for assistance.

… Stander was OP's very first phone call… and it had had nothing to do with not being able to move Reeva on his own and requiring assistance

5. OP said he wanted to move Reeva because Netcare advised him to take her to the Hospital

… this makes even less sense : Netcare's business model is entirely based on sending ambulances and paramedics on location and patients to emergency rooms… furthermore, there would be severe liability issues in telling callers to act in such a way.

… plus OP had NOT called Netcare yet : Netcare was OP's second phone call AFTER Stander.

… Stander was OP's very first phone call… it had had nothing to do with not being able to move Reeva on his own and requiring assistance because OP could indeed move Reeva on his own… AND it had nothing to do with the alleged directive from Netcare because Netcare would NEVER give such directives and that phoe call hadn't occurred yet.

IMO, OP wanted Stander to take Reeva to the hospital while he stayed home to figure out the best way to cover-up the crime scene with his intruder story

Good points.

I've always wondered if at some early point OP was planning on removing her body, cleaning up, and not telling anybody else except maybe Stander who he needed help from. Im thinking that once he realized others were aware of the incident, only then did he throw that plan out the window.

 

[Chelly]

Does anyone know who flushed the toilet? Did anyone take responsibility for that?

 

[AJ_DS]

Good points.

I've always wondered if at some early point OP was planning on removing her body, cleaning up, and not telling anybody else except maybe Stander who he needed help from. Im thinking that once he realized others were aware of the incident, only then did he throw that plan out the window.

Indeed…

Also, I suspect OP quickly realized the dilemma he was in :

- the longer he waited to make the expected phone calls in such a situation the more time he had available to think his version through and make the necessary tampering to fit his version BUT the longer the delay the more he would ultimately look guilty of murder.

- the faster he made the expected phone calls, the less time he would have to think and correct the scene which could in the end come back and bite him in the arse.

As with any hesitation in a crisis situation, it resulted in OP's version being afflicted with both downsides and probably not many upsides

 

[Scand]

Good points.

I've always wondered if at some early point OP was planning on removing her body, cleaning up, and not telling anybody else except maybe Stander who he needed help from. Im thinking that once he realized others were aware of the incident, only then did he throw that plan out the window.

I've had the same suspicion. Especially after I heard that Ms Stander works in "legal". The FIRST phone call should have been for an ambulance, not a lawyer!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[AJ_DS]

Does anyone know who flushed the toilet? Did anyone take responsibility for that?

How do we know the toilet was flushed ??

 

[Mr Fossil]

I'll get things rolling…

1. OP said that he attempted to pick-up and carry Reeva's body, but couldn't

2. OP said he called Stander to help him pick-up and carry Reeva's body

… so far it makes sense

3. OP said that he cleared the way from the bathroom to the outside of his house (i.e. fully open bedroom doors and front door) because he wouldn't be able to do so whilst carrying Reeva's body in his arms.

… this makes sense on it's own, but considering what OP said in 1.-2., it doesn't : why would you clear the way in anticipation of something you can't do ?

4. OP said he picked-up Reeva's body and carried her all the way from the bathroom to the bottom of the stairs without ever stopping to put her down… even kept on carrying her when Johan and Carice were trying to reason with him to put her down.

… this makes no sense whatsoever : about 5 minutes prior to moving Reeva, OP said he attempted to do so but failed, causing him to call Stander for assistance.

… Stander was OP's very first phone call… and it had had nothing to do with not being able to move Reeva on his own and requiring assistance

5. OP said he wanted to move Reeva because Netcare advised him to take her to the Hospital

… this makes even less sense : Netcare's business model is entirely based on sending ambulances and paramedics on location and patients to emergency rooms… furthermore, there would be severe liability issues in telling callers to act in such a way.

… plus OP had NOT called Netcare yet : Netcare was OP's second phone call AFTER Stander.

… Stander was OP's very first phone call… it had had nothing to do with not being able to move Reeva on his own and requiring assistance because OP could indeed move Reeva on his own… AND it had nothing to do with the alleged directive from Netcare because Netcare would NEVER give such directives and that phoe call hadn't occurred yet.

IMO, OP wanted Stander to take Reeva to the hospital while he stayed home to figure out the best way to cover-up the crime scene with his intruder story

In the bail affidavit he states "I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander&#8221 who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. ". Why ask someone else to do this when they don't have first hand knowledge of what has happened?

In evidence he said as you say, then phones NetCare, confirming effectively that he didn't ask Stander to.

In evidence Stander testifies that OP called him and said "Johan, please, please, please come to my house. I shot Reeva. I thought she was an intruder. Please, please come quickly.” Now Stander is tailoring his evidence!

It would be a revelation to put every version together in a chronological order!

 

[AJ_DS]

In the bail affidavit he states "I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander&#8221 who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. ". Why ask someone else to do this when they don't have first hand knowledge of what has happened?

In evidence he said as you say, then phones NetCare, confirming effectively that he didn't ask Stander to.

In evidence Stander testifies that OP called him and said "Johan, please, please, please come to my house. I shot Reeva. I thought she was an intruder. Please, please come quickly.” Now Stander is tailoring his evidence!

It would be a revelation to put every version together in a chronological order!

Very good points Herr Fossil

So in summary :

1. Although OP said he called Stander to ask him to call an ambulance, he called Netcare himself 38 seconds after hanging up with Stander

2. Although OP said he called Stander to ask him to call an ambulance, Stander did NOT call an ambulance and did NOT corroborate OP on the content of the phone conversation

3. Although OP called Netcare himself, he did NOT request an ambulance and was determined to have Stander drive Reeva to the Hospital

4. Although OP said he called Stander because he could not pick-up and carry Reeva by himself, he DID in fact pick-up and carry Reeva by himself without any difficulty about 5 minutes after hanging up with Stander

… I wish Nel had pointed out this additional tailoring of OP's version…

… it is clear that what OP stated in his bail application about his call to Stander can NEVER be reconciled with OP's or Stander's testimony at Trial.

… it is clear that OP's version at Trial about his call to Stander does NOT make any sense.

 

[cottonweaver]

In the bail affidavit he states "I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander&#8221 who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. ". Why ask someone else to do this when they don't have first hand knowledge of what has happened?

In evidence he said as you say, then phones NetCare, confirming effectively that he didn't ask Stander to.

In evidence Stander testifies that OP called him and said "Johan, please, please, please come to my house. I shot Reeva. I thought she was an intruder. Please, please come quickly.” Now Stander is tailoring his evidence!

It would be a revelation to put every version together in a chronological order!

And to muddy the waters further let's not forget that Dr. Stipp testified that after he arrived on the scene at Pistorius's house:
Stander was outside on a call on his mobile and gestured to Stipp to go in through Oscar's door, Stipp then examines Reeva and determines she is dead and nothing he can do for her, sees Oscar doing his crying, praying etc and then Stipp goes back outside and asks Stander has he phoned for the ambulance? Stander says No he hasn't done it yet. Stander does not reply - "No, Oscar has already called them and they said we must bring her in."
So Stipp phones one number then Stander phones another emergency number at Stipp's request.

The ambulance calling sequence - who asked whom to call them and when ....all very suspect and never cleared up.

In respect of the previous points on this thread page - Oscar needed to buy thinking time. He certainly would not want to give a full account to the cops as the first visitors to this scene and of course we know that he did not relate a full account until he had to. Much more convenient to appear distraught, inconsolable, incapable of communicating.

I still don't think he was attempting a full cover-up that night - whisking away the body etc. Let's face it - he has always thought he would "get away with it" with his mistaken identity story.

Incidentally, isn't it strange OP never gave an account of checking her pulse. It's so plausible that he did in fact take her pulse on getting into that bathroom. He's an athlete - he'll be as used to monitoring that as runners are used to puking after a track event.
Conveniently by omitting this- he had himself confirmed she was dead- he could account for the moving of the body and the fakery of the desperate attempts, fingers in mouth, staunching of blood and need to get her to hospital.

 

[patCee]

How do we know the toilet was flushed ??

We don't, but looking at the photos would the blood from her wounds fall in fairly straight lines down the bowl, with clear lines also down the bowl in between. It looks as though it was flushed, and some of the thicker blood clung to the toilet bowl. Sorry to be graphic.

 

[Sherbert]

What's happened to our main thread all these days???

Regarding the issue of premeditated murder:

I've always thought that Reeva ran into the toilet and locked the door. This is, of course, quite plausible.

However, recently, I've started to wonder if OP chased her into the toilet, cricket bat in hand and then locked her in himself, for the purpose of containing her whilst he fetched his gun.

Did he need to get her into the toilet because he already knew he was going to execute her and blame it on mistaken identity afterwards?

If she was in the toilet, he could say that he didn't realise it was she behind the door because she was hidden from view.

He may even have told her through the door that he was going to shoot her and that he'd get away with it, too, because he'd tell everyone he mistook her for an intruder and everyone would believe him. This might explain the increasing intensity of her screams, as described by Charl Johnson.

Sorry if this theory has already been posted...