Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Cherwell]

… it is clear that what OP stated in his bail application about his call to Stander can NEVER be reconciled with OP's or Stander's testimony at Trial.

I wonder if the judge & assessors have had the opportunity to study the bail application.

And to muddy the waters further let's not forget that Dr. Stipp testified that after he arrived on the scene at Pistorius's house:
Stander was outside on a call on his mobile and gestured to Stipp to go in through Oscar's door, Stipp then examines Reeva and determines she is dead and nothing he can do for her, sees Oscar doing his crying, praying etc and then Stipp goes back outside and asks Stander has he phoned for the ambulance? Stander says No he hasn't done it yet.

So who was he phoning, I wonder?

 

[cottonweaver]

We don't, but looking at the photos would the blood from her wounds fall in fairly straight lines down the bowl, with clear lines also down the bowl in between. It looks as though it was flushed, and some of the thicker blood clung to the toilet bowl. Sorry to be graphic.

I just had another look at those photos. I know what you're saying - you may be right, they do give the impression of flushing but don't you think it also could be due to..
-Reeva's long hair making the blood drip from it as the hair clumped plus
-her head resting on the toilet seat, hair tendrils draping down into the bowl and
-the concave shape of the bowl together with the overhanging seat means perhaps the flush areas are more recessed

There are also still some fine droplets in the "clean" areas where the toilet water may flush.

I think he's rather a conniving*character and when he saw the blood all over the toilet floor he would have known he would not be able to clear all that in a hurry - so why flush the toilet and make a half hearted clean-up attempt before or after he called Stander?

*conniving- has to get across his one-liner in immediate aftermath to Stipp & Stander etc "I shot her. I though she was an intruder "but goes no further. No flustered further explanations as many innocent people would give. I don't doubt he was emotional at that point- he was kakking himself re what he had done- but he could still be calculated- hence the going back upstairs too.

 

[cottonweaver]

So who was he phoning, I wonder?

I'd wondered like you - someone more important than the Emergency services!! Oldwage? Carl..Uncle..Standers wife? Naturally they don't have Standers phone records.
I thought it was very cavalier that Stander is even outside chatting and just motions Stipp to go in - whoever he was calling it was more important .
Remember Mrs Standers turned up afterwards and Stipp related her choice statement " I hope this doesn't get into the papers".
Seems to be something about Pistorius that makes his associates deluded! I suppose it's simply in the nature of celebrity and power that makes those around them forget their own integrity.

 

[4MrsB]

The ambulance calling sequence - who asked whom to call them and when ....all very suspect and never cleared up......

...... Incidentally, isn't it strange OP never gave an account of checking her pulse. It's so plausible that he did in fact take her pulse on getting into that bathroom.

Respectfully snipped for space...

Re ambulance : It believe it may have been as Stipp was arriving at Oscar's house, that Stander was on phone attempting to reach ambulance service. I think Sander testified that after he & Carice talked Oscar into setting Reeva down at base of staircase, and saw the extent of the situation he agreed to go call an ambulance (which you make a good point - OP did not then state to Stander that he had already summoned one). I believe he wias suppose to be doing that when Stipp arrived. He asked Stipp for a number (Stipp mention he was a doctor, and reason he was coming over to see if he could assist) as he/Stander couldn't seem to get thru. Stipp gave him a number to call & then went inside. When Stipp exited the house (after realizing Reeva was already deceased), that is when I believe Stander handed phone to Stipp for some reason - to talk to ambulance co., or for some reason.


Re Oscar NOT mentioning checking her pulse ...
That is an excellent point. This is something most any adult would instinctively do. And for him not to mention that step seems extremely odd. i hadn't even thought about that until you pointed that out. Within seconds of entering the toilet area, most people would check that immediately (considering her condition) via the neck, wrist, somewhere you could feel a pulse. Of course, most people would also call an ambulance (or 911 equivalent) as the immediate next step following that one.

(An adult might also attempt CPR as opposed to "sticking a finger in the person's mouth".)

 

[4MrsB]

...snipped respectfully for space.

However, recently, I've started to wonder if OP chased her into the toilet, cricket bat in hand and then locked her in himself, for the purpose of containing her whilst he fetched his gun.

Did he need to get her into the toilet because he already knew he was going to execute her and blame it on mistaken identity afterwards?

If she was in the toilet, he could say that he didn't realise it was she behind the door because she was hidden from view.

He may even have told her through the door that he was going to shoot her and that he'd get away with it, too, because he'd tell everyone he mistook her for an intruder and everyone would believe him. This might explain the increasing intensity of her screams, as described by Charl Johnson.

Sorry if this theory has already been posted...

Reading this gives me the chills. I have visualized similar scenarios throughout this trial, but every time I read another person's suggested idea of what may have taken place and the situation Reeva was faced with is just so horrifying. It makes sense that he may have realized he needed her in the toilet area (and even told her what she had now "forced" him to do next). And the reason her terrifying screams escalated...either SEEing OP with a gun or him TELLing her his next step.

So sad. Her poor parents.

 

[AJ_DS]

I wonder if the judge & assessors have had the opportunity to study the bail application.

So who was he phoning, I wonder?

I'm convinced they did or will do so : the bail affidavit is in evidence and part of the record as it has been referenced during Trial numerous times.

 

[Greater Than]

Re Oscar NOT mentioning checking her pulse ...
That is an excellent point. This is something most any adult would instinctively do. And for him not to mention that step seems extremely odd. i hadn't even thought about that until you pointed that out. Within seconds of entering the toilet area, most people would check that immediately (considering her condition) via the neck, wrist, somewhere you could feel a pulse. Of course, most people would also call an ambulance (or 911 equivalent) as the immediate next step following that one.

(An adult might also attempt CPR as opposed to "sticking a finger in the person's mouth".)

RSBM

I personally don't find it odd that he didn't check her pulse. He literally blew her brains out all over his toilet bowl. She was already dead and he knew it.

But what I do find odd that further proves his guilt to me is his reaction when he saw her. I think most people would be absolutely hysterical when they saw the result of their horrific mistake. Not screaming after breaking out the door panels because he "didn't see the point" and because he was "overcome with sadness" is beyond ludicrous, especially after claiming to scream for 15 minutes straight (sometimes like a man, sometimes like a woman) up until that point. MOO

 

[AJ_DS]

RSBM

I personally don't find it odd that he didn't check her pulse. He literally blew her brains out all over his toilet bowl. She was already dead and he knew it.

But what I do find odd that further proves his guilt to me is his reaction when he saw her. I think most people would be absolutely hysterical when they saw the result of their horrific mistake. Not screaming after breaking out the door panels because he "didn't see the point" and because he was "overcome with sadness" is beyond ludicrous, especially after claiming to scream for 15 minutes straight (sometimes like a man, sometimes like a woman) up until that point. MOO

Indeed.

Not only is the timeline of screams in OP's version counter-intuitive to the point of being highly improbable BUT the nature of the screams could not match up with what witnesses heard.

OP described a state of panic, confusion, disbelief, remorse, etc…

Witnesses described screams of fear, terror, imminent life-threatening danger, etc…

It doesn't take a mind-reading Supreme Court Justice to figure out OP's ruse : he needed to account for Reeva's screams up until the 2nd set of bangs... and then silence.

Basically, either you believe that :

A. 4 independent and corroborated witnesses are inexplicably collectively mistaken about it being a woman's screams AND are also inexplicably collectively mistaken about the underlying nature of said screams AND OP has a completely unexpected/abnormal reaction to seeing Reeva's bloodied lifeless body.

B. 4 independent and corroborated witnesses are correct AND the screaming stopped because the person screaming was shot dead.

Occam's Razor.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

As if committing murder wasn’t horrific enough, cowardly OP actually has the brazen brass balls - in a desperate, last-ditch effort - to HIDE behind #VAW domestic abuse as some tragic victim! He is simply putrid.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Live Broadcasts Take Pistorius Trial Into South African Classrooms
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/l...-african-classrooms-573165?h_related_also_see

This murder case will be taught in law schools all around the world.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Laurie A Claase @LaurieAClaase  Aug 7
#OscarTrial Judge had few questions for Nel today. She asked about Reeva being fully clothed - What if she went to bed with clothes on?


First, I think they never went to bed.

Second, IMHO, the chance of Reeva going to bed fully clothed is virtually zero.

1) Gorgeous, fit model accustomed to going buff before the cameras - modesty was not in the equation.
2) Feb. 14 was a HOT, HUMID night (many neighbors also had their bedroom balcony doors open).
3) Two young people very much in “love” (who did not see each other every day) - why would they wear clothes to bed?

Now present this same case with an old married couple in the middle of winter and I’ll give you a very different answer! LOL

 

[PrimeSuspect]

What was crucially missing from the trial, the transcript or recording of OP's Netcare call. This is another glaring omission I need to add to my list of strange anomalies of this case. jmo

"something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

 

[Lux et Veritas]

And to muddy the waters further let's not forget that Dr. Stipp testified that after he arrived on the scene at Pistorius's house:
Stander was outside on a call on his mobile and gestured to Stipp to go in through Oscar's door, Stipp then examines Reeva and determines she is dead and nothing he can do for her, sees Oscar doing his crying, praying etc and then Stipp goes back outside and asks Stander has he phoned for the ambulance? Stander says No he hasn't done it yet. Stander does not reply - "No, Oscar has already called them and they said we must bring her in."
So Stipp phones one number then Stander phones another emergency number at Stipp's request.

The ambulance calling sequence - who asked whom to call them and when ....all very suspect and never cleared up.

In respect of the previous points on this thread page - Oscar needed to buy thinking time. He certainly would not want to give a full account to the cops as the first visitors to this scene and of course we know that he did not relate a full account until he had to. Much more convenient to appear distraught, inconsolable, incapable of communicating.

I still don't think he was attempting a full cover-up that night - whisking away the body etc. Let's face it - he has always thought he would "get away with it" with his mistaken identity story.

Incidentally, isn't it strange OP never gave an account of checking her pulse. It's so plausible that he did in fact take her pulse on getting into that bathroom. He's an athlete - he'll be as used to monitoring that as runners are used to puking after a track event.
Conveniently by omitting this- he had himself confirmed she was dead- he could account for the moving of the body and the fakery of the desperate attempts, fingers in mouth, staunching of blood and need to get her to hospital.

Bulls eye!!! Reading all these excellent posts tonight, I am so hoping that Judge Masipa and her assessors are as laser sharp as the incredible Websleuthers on this OP Trial forum!

You guys make me so proud. I'll be honored to work any future cases with you all!

 

[Lux et Veritas]

What's happened to our main thread all these days???

Regarding the issue of premeditated murder:

I've always thought that Reeva ran into the toilet and locked the door. This is, of course, quite plausible.

However, recently, I've started to wonder if OP chased her into the toilet, cricket bat in hand and then locked her in himself, for the purpose of containing her whilst he fetched his gun.

Did he need to get her into the toilet because he already knew he was going to execute her and blame it on mistaken identity afterwards?

If she was in the toilet, he could say that he didn't realise it was she behind the door because she was hidden from view.

He may even have told her through the door that he was going to shoot her and that he'd get away with it, too, because he'd tell everyone he mistook her for an intruder and everyone would believe him. This might explain the increasing intensity of her screams, as described by Charl Johnson.

Sorry if this theory has already been posted...

Yes, this very thought did once cross my mind but it was so horrific and upsetting I immediately put it out of my mind.

Yet, now that you bring it up and considering the totality of the evidence and testimonies, I absolutely cannot discount it.

It is perfectly clear that Oscar Pistorius will do literally anything for Oscar Pistorius - after all, Uncle Arnie cleans up all his messes.

 

[AJ_DS]

Laurie A Claase @LaurieAClaase  Aug 7
#OscarTrial Judge had few questions for Nel today. She asked about Reeva being fully clothed - What if she went to bed with clothes on?


First, I think they never went to bed.

Second, IMHO, the chance of Reeva going to bed fully clothed is virtually zero.

1) Gorgeous, fit model accustomed to going buff before the cameras - modesty was not in the equation.
2) Feb. 14 was a HOT, HUMID night (many neighbors also had their bedroom balcony doors open).
3) Two young people very much in “love” (who did not see each other every day) - why would they wear clothes to bed?

Now present this same case with an old married couple in the middle of winter and I’ll give you a very different answer! LOL

Not challenging your more than valid points... just proffering my own

1. I never had a problem with Reeva going to bed the way she was dressed : short loose-fitting sports short and a tank top… I have had many girlfriends spend the night, borrowing my clothes and go to bed dressed in a very similar fashion… not systematically of course… they did enjoy spoiling me with some Victoria Secrets !

2. I don't believe that there is necessarily a correlation between body image/profession and modesty in a personal setting… from my own experience, I have dated some woman that would be considered by most as gorgeous but were nevertheless shy, modest and a bit prude.

Another totally ludicrous bit in OP's story :

- Reeva was certainly aware of OP's anxiety regarding burglars/intruders : locked bedroom door, cricket bat at the bedroom door, alarm system, handgun, etc…

- OP had asked Reeva to close and lock the balcony doors before going to sleep… she never did close and lock those doors

- OP wakes up at around 3AM… Reeva is awake beside him… it's hot, it's humid… they can't sleep… BUT Reeva witnesses OP get out of bed to close and lock the balcony doors : i.e. safety and security were paramount, above comfort from the cooler night air being blown indoors by the fans.

- Reeva gets out of bed and the very first thing she does is open the bathroom window !!! Not only is that absolutely the opposite of what OP is trying to achieve in the bedroom BUT it serves no purpose whatsoever : Reeva is going to pee… she does not even turn on any lights… she will be back in the bedroom in 2 minute tops. Plus, NO benefit whatsoever in opening the bathroom window for fresh air when your going inside the toilet cubicle.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I wonder if the judge & assessors have had the opportunity to study the bail application.



So who was he phoning, I wonder?

Exactly. Kinda makes you start wondering about Stander being a conspiratorial accomplice (or some such charge) - and no doubt perjury!

Keep in mind - Stander testified to seeing the "truth" of that night (OP's wailing and howling) - he was also the SAME guy who helped OP out of his 2009 domestic assault charge.

It was no panicked accident that OP called Stander FIRST.

No wonder OP called him "oom".

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Also, wouldn't OP hear Reeva flush the toilet some time between getting the gun and walking down the passage? Wouldn't he hear the toilet paper roll moving as she grabs some sheets, she is a girl? :blushing:

Or did she go there for another reason like look at her phone, make a call?

It's such a small area, the way OP tells his story is like she's several rooms away. Just all BS!!

 

[AJ_DS]

What was crucially missing from the trial, the transcript or recording of OP's Netcare call. This is another glaring omission I need to add to my list of strange anomalies of this case. jmo

"something is rotten in the state of Denmark"

I concur on principal.

We must have faith in Nel's learned assessment of all the evidence and trust that he did not enter the call to Netcare into evidence because it would not be instrumental in furthering the State's case.

The fact that Roux elected NOT to enter the call to Netcare into evidence is, IMO, much more telling.

The fact that neither Nel nor Roux had the courtesy to enter the call to Netcare into evidence for our WebSleuthing benefit is simply inconsiderate.

 

[AJ_DS]

Also, wouldn't OP hear Reeva flush the toilet some time between getting the gun and walking down the passage? Wouldn't he hear the toilet paper roll moving as she grabs some sheets, she is a girl? :blushing:

Or did she go there for another reason like look at her phone, make a call?

It's such a small area, the way OP tells his story is like she's several rooms away. Just all BS!!

So many things OP did NOT hear in his version :

- the toilet seat go down
- the urine stream
- the toilet paper roll
- the toilet flush
- the toilet door being locked

… perhaps OP's anxiety has an unexpected and novel side effect : selective hearing or intermittent deafness !! :thinking:


:hilarious:

 

[AJ_DS]

My tell-tale silliness is surfacing… clear indication that it's time for bed

Cheers

fftobed: