Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Cherwell]

I know many people who are saying that. However, I remind them that if he walks, it will mean Thokozile Masipa, one of the most principled people in Africa, has turned her back on the struggles & sacrifices she and her Peers made for freedom & equality. That, will never happen.

It's not Judge Masipa and her verdict that worries me.

It's the appeal circus that will inevitably follow, and the chances that the Pistorius influence will be brought to bear on somebody.
Remember the boast about "pissing on Zuma". :shakehead:

 

[JudgeJudi]

“Mr Rens read out a competency questionnaire and examination that Mr Pistorius, a South African Paralympic athlete, had completed before he could be issued with a firearm.

He scored top marks in these tests, which included questions about the rules on when you are legally allowed to shoot intruders.

One question was: "Explain the legal requirements when using a firearm for private use", to which Mr Pistorius answered: "Attack must be against you, it must be unlawful, it must be against persons."

The final question on the importance of target identification elicited this answer from Mr Pistorius: "Always know your target and what lies behind."

And he did. The target was Reeva.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26608368

 

[sleuth-d-]

nel's cross examination of op.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQBha2ZCAjU [49:00]
running through the op version of the post shooting events.

after answering the tricky baba call question...
interesting that op then misses out [or forgets about] the whole part about 'switching off the alarm, running down the stairs to open the front door, barging the bedroom door on the way back up the stairs' - which had been previously given in his eic to roux.

 

[Interested Bystander]

It's not Judge Masipa and her verdict that worries me.

It's the appeal circus that will inevitably follow, and the chances that the Pistorius influence will be brought to bear on somebody.
Remember the boast about "pissing on Zuma". :shakehead:

My feelings, too. Judge Masipa will allow an appeal if she feels confident about her judgement. It is the appeal (which IMO will be allowed) that concerns me as much as it does you, Cherwell. That is where I see the P family screwing justice. Rightly or wrongly, I do feel Op will be allowed bail until that time.

 

[Mr Fossil]

nel's cross examination of op.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQBha2ZCAjU [49:00]
running through the op version of the post shooting events.

after answering the tricky baba call question...
interesting that op then misses out [or forgets about] the whole part about 'switching off the alarm, running down the stairs to open the front door, barging the bedroom door on the way back up the stairs' - which had been previously given in his eic to roux.

Yes. It's a shame Nel didn't get him to detail the sequence more precisely. I don't believe there is time for all this to happen when he says, if you compare it to the call times and him picking Reeva up and carrying her halfway downstairs, at which point the Standers arrive. Add to this: grab keys from on top of speaker, unlock bedroom door, and also switch kitchen light on. The latter because Johan Stander testifies that the kitchen light is on when they arrive. And if we accept that, then he must have gone to the kitchen for a reason.

 

[Cherwell]

I know this has been discussed before, but I see no reason why he should be allowed bail if he is found guilty, especially if he is also guilty on one or more of the gun charges.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Running up to the secondary bedroom door and attempting to force it open has always sounded nonsensical to me.

I can only believe that OP introduces the bit about forcing the bedroom door open in his EIC because he is aware of the damage shown in the photos and he doesn't know what he will be cross examined on at this point. Ignoring the 'bullet' hole for the time being, just how does he expect the damage to the edge of the door to have occurred? If he ran downstairs, then the main bedroom door was open. It is only the secondary door that is latched. But the damage to the edge surely requires both doors to be closed and locked so that the edge has to be forced past something (e.g. the edge of the other door)?

 

[Mr Fossil]

I know this has been discussed before, but I see no reason why he should be allowed bail if he is found guilty, especially if he is also guilty on one or more of the gun charges.

Perhaps he will only get a fine and/or suspended sentence for any of the other 3 charges that he's found guilty of? Bail seems a very high probability from what I've read, though I don't agree with it either.

 

[foxbluff]

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-pistorius-house-inside-the-luxury-home-in-pretoria-where-reeva-steenkamp-was-killed/story-fndir2ev-1227040036666
View attachment 58002
This pic makes the whole ladder thing so ridiculous.. why would they use ladders to enter an upstairs room when they can just break in through the doors below them?[/QUOTE]

BBM... Yes, why indeed !? lol Particularly since this intruder, unlike most, was not opposed to making noise to announce his entrance.

Just jumping off your post here...
Last week somebody here posted a link to an article where Mrs. Stipp was interviewed recently. I was playing catch up when I saw the post, and meant to come back to it to open link. I forgot to go back to it and now I can't find it! Grrh...

When I try to google it, all I get are articles regarding her trial testimony. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what words I should google. tia

 

[Mr Fossil]

RSBM
Last week somebody here posted a link to an article where Mrs. Stipp was interviewed recently. I was playing catch up when I saw the post, and meant to come back to it to open link. I forgot to go back to it and now I can't find it! Grrh...

When I try to google it, all I get are articles regarding her trial testimony. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what words I should google. tia

Here one: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/25/oscar-pistorius-witness-court-south-africa

 

[foxbluff]

Months ago a poster commented about the judge having a disability. Does she? (If so, I'm totally confident it's NOT a mental one.)

 

[foxbluff]

Here one: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/25/oscar-pistorius-witness-court-south-africa

OMG Fos !! That was so quick and very appreciated. I'm off to read...

 

[Mr Fossil]

Months ago a poster commented about the judge having a disability. Does she? (If so, I'm totally confident it's NOT a mental one.)

Asked about Masipa's pronounced limp – she examined evidence in court on the supporting arm of an orderly – Naude shakes her head. "She once told me it was a broken femur, but others say it was childhood polio. No one really knows."

See http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2014/aug/10/thokozile-masipa-world-awaits-her-verdict

 

[eimajjjj]

I know this has been discussed before, but I see no reason why he should be allowed bail if he is found guilty, especially if he is also guilty on one or more of the gun charges.

I wouldn't worry about that too much. A lot of people who are assuming this are quoting the same article where it reads his bail will be extended from the previous bail. However if you dig a bit deeper (I think even the wiki article on SA law states it, I'll check), you can read that it's at the discretion of the judge to extend bail again or not and I'm pretty confident that Masipa will close that door sharp while he's going through the appeal process.

Here (all from wiki on SA law):

"When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence"

"If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail"

"The fact that the person is now convicted and sentenced to imprisonment changes the position practically: There is no longer a presumption of innocence, on the one hand; on the other hand, the incentive to evade justice is greater. "

"Logically, a court may refuse bail pending appeal if it is an appeal against the sentence only. At best for the convicted person, whichever way the appeal goes, he will still end up serving a lengthy period of imprisonment"

 

[Cherwell]

Perhaps he will only get a fine and/or suspended sentence for any of the other 3 charges that he's found guilty of? Bail seems a very high probability from what I've read, though I don't agree with it either.

Don't see why he should get away with that. Won't he be viewed as a serial offender? And to make matters worse, he clearly lied about both the ammunition charge and the Tasha's incident.

You say that bail seems a very high probability - on what grounds could he be given bail?

(Cross-posted with eimajjj!)

 

[Mr Fossil]

Don't see why he should get away with that. Won't he be viewed as a serial offender? And to make matters worse, he clearly lied about both the ammunition charge and the Tasha's incident.

You say that bail seems a very high probability - on what grounds could he be given bail?

(Cross-posted with eimajjj!)

Only a high probability given the number of commentators that have expressed this opinion, usually prefaced with "you're not going to like this" (which I for one don't, if it turns out to be the case). I'll dig some examples out if I have time. For me, what will be will be. The verdict, sentence and any subsequent application for and granting of bail is very much in the hands of the court. And I shall live and learn.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Running up to the secondary bedroom door and attempting to force it open has always sounded nonsensical to me.

I can only believe that OP introduces the bit about forcing the bedroom door open in his EIC because he is aware of the damage shown in the photos and he doesn't know what he will be cross examined on at this point. Ignoring the 'bullet' hole for the time being, just how does he expect the damage to the edge of the door to have occurred? If he ran downstairs, then the main bedroom door was open. It is only the secondary door that is latched. But the damage to the edge surely requires both doors to be closed and locked so that the edge has to be forced past something (e.g. the edge of the other door)?

it certainly looks like something has been pushed between the two doors to force them apart. cricket bat maybe... or the 'silencer' on the air rifle. from nel's point of view, i suppose there was no way of establishing that any of those marks happened on the 13/14th.

 

[Mr Fossil]

it certainly looks like something has been pushed between the two doors to force them apart. cricket bat maybe... or the 'silencer' on the air rifle. from nel's point of view, i suppose there was no way of establishing that any of those marks happened on the 13/14th.

Agreed, which must be why Nel didn't go there. That said, it fits other versions of events. Perhaps OP was trying to get to Reeva, she locked herself in the room and he forced the door open. Or another possibility I'm exploring is that OP's story of the intruder had to change and that originally he had considered that the intruder(s) had killed Reeva. Not sure on that though as there was so little time after the shots that killed her to think up much and set the scene.

 

[Mr Fossil]

nel's cross examination of op.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQBha2ZCAjU [49:00]
running through the op version of the post shooting events.

after answering the tricky baba call question...
interesting that op then misses out [or forgets about] the whole part about 'switching off the alarm, running down the stairs to open the front door, barging the bedroom door on the way back up the stairs' - which had been previously given in his eic to roux.

For me, OP's imagined reason for calling Security was that it must have been because he needed help, though he doesn't recall any of it. In itself, this is totally plausible. However, it falls down on two major counts. He instigates the call and says nothing. Why? Who places a call, needing help, when he's already spoken to others (Stander and NetCare) and then doesn't say anything? And then when Baba calls back he again says nothing about needing help, just "everything is fine". He is lying. He didn't want security there. The reasons for the call are different.

I also believe the reason why the NetCare call or operators weren't brought into evidence is because both sides agree it as common cause. Most likely they did tell OP to bring Reeva in, though why perhaps we'll never know. He probably said something like "my girlfriend has been shot, what shall I do?" and then became totally incoherent when asked for details. Playing back the recording wouldn't prove anything either way.

 

[foxbluff]

Here one: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/aug/25/oscar-pistorius-witness-court-south-africa

Thank you MrFos for finding and bringing this link back onboard. Sooo, as it turns out, Mrs. Stipp was interviewed by the SA NPA rather than the media as I had first thought even though the idea of her going to the media seemed out of character.

I totally agree with the sentiment expressed in the first para of the quote below. And I don't limit that to just South Africans. Also, in addition to the "mauling" Mrs. Stipp had to endure during her testimony, the privacy and quiet enjoyment of her home was invaded more than once. Wouldn't we love to know what choice words she spoke from the balcony to the "sound testers" in her garden at 3AM.

Do any of you have any ideas on how the NPA report got leaked to the media?


[QUOTE Snipped] Pistorius witnesses 'trampled and exhausted' by courtroom maulings.
Harsh examinations seen on TV could make South Africans reluctant to help in future high-profile trials, warns report <snipped>
[Mrs.] Stipp was subsequently interviewed for a research paper by South Africa's National Prosecuting Authority. She described giving evidence, and the aftermath, as "emotional, daunting and exhausting", according to the country's Times newspaper, which has seen the research. Stipp felt as if she were being personally attacked and was not sure that she would go through it again. [Quote Snipped]