Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

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PrimeSuspect said:
Unfortunately in OP's case, he does fit the criteria, it appears OP is in a much better circumstance than YB, so could be granted bail. :gaah: What I've taken and compared from your link ty, eimajjj,

1. It was in OP's favour taking the stand and being cross examined, YB gave testimony by affidavit only.

2. YB can only put up R20,000 bail which is insufficient to secure her not leave to the country, plus she's unemployed, OP comes from a family of great wealth, his family can guarantee a much larger sum.

3. YB lives with her fiance, the court believes they could break up. :thinking: OP has a secure home with his Uncle and Aunty.

4. YB has failed to disclose her financial situation, which I'm pretty sure OP has. :thinking:



It is definitely improving but I don't understand these 'invisible' servants, its seems comparable to illegal aliens. Makes it difficult when or if they are witness to a crime. OP seemed to value Frank and his housekeeping skills, which was nice to learn. :)
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1. Gee if OP hadn't taken the stand he couldn't have wept, wailed and puked to try and convince the judge and public how distressed he is.
2. A family of great wealth that can also afford to lose the bail amount should their dear "golden boy" need to fly free.
3. Can anyone guarantee how secure their living arrangements are? I hear Ebola is on the rise, let alone earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, etc and I'm not just talking about Africa.
4. Yea sure, if you discount the info on the thumb drive/s with offshore accounts that his brother and lawyer were so focused on retrieving from the crime scene that they called in a locksmith while the police were still there. Apparently some of the other reported ownership claims were "untruths". ie. a home in Italy, a McLaren and who knows what else

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/13/oscar-was-worried-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva
 
Val1 said:
1. Gee if OP hadn't taken the stand he couldn't have wept, wailed and puked to try and convince the judge and public how distressed he is.
2. A family of great wealth that can also afford to lose the bail amount should their dear "golden boy" need to fly free.
3. Can anyone guarantee how secure their living arrangements are? I hear Ebola is on the rise, let alone earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, etc and I'm not just talking about Africa.
4. Yea sure, if you discount the info on the thumb drive/s with offshore accounts that his brother and lawyer were so focused on retrieving from the crime scene that they called in a locksmith while the police were still there. Apparently some of the other reported ownership claims were "untruths". ie. a home in Italy, a McLaren and who knows what else

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/13/oscar-was-worried-about-reputation-after-altercations-reeva
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:floorlaugh: I love how you worded this and you're absolutely correct, he doesn't deserve all these favours, just comes down to money I guess. :tantrum:
 
Mr Fossil said:
I now see that the doors have the same handles on both sides. Unless you live in Scandinavia or other places with heavy snow, isn't it normal for front doors to open inwards? This means that it's another inconsistency in OP's story ... why didn't he open them wide?

http://multimedia.timeslive.co.za/videos/2014/08/exclusive-oscars-footsteps/ @ 1:40
Click to expand...

In case you didn't find one yet, I believe this is the front door.
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/oscar-pistorius-new-crime-scene-pics/
screenshot-2014-04-22-22-24-08.jpg
 
sleuth-d- said:
i would agree that the door was already open [maybe never locked at all that night] and the downstairs lights were already on [maybe had never been switched off that night].

re: your point 1 and your exploration...
you might be interested to look at the state of the secondary bedroom door lower latch in the police photo. still locked i believe?
methinks the ridiculous barging story was to cover the op/rs altercation at that door.

re: point 3
carice and a door that opens outwards.
"the door was very, very slightly open ... and as I touched the door I could open it immediately."
does the front door actually open outwards?
it is strange description to make, if the door opens outwards... surely it would be possible to 'see' it was open. and i would expect her to use the word 'pull' somewhere in a description of opening an outward opening door. why say 'as i touched the door' - that statement would better describe a door that opens inwards.
carice was a very friendly witness for the defence.

a couple of other things re: doors/the house/aftermath.
1. many mentions of 'my house' by oscar during his evidence. i think he was very proud of that house, and that it was very much 'his' and things there were done his way.
2. op mentions that the door was 'locked' when he arrived back that night... would he have liked being locked out?

3. how could carice/johan standar/baba et al see op at the top of the stairs if the hallway/downstairs light was off? it had to be on.

4. absence is sometimes telling. if op had switched lights on AFTER taking reeva's body out from the toilet [upstairs tv room light (on in photo)/stairway light/kitchen light/hallway light ... etc], his hands were surely covered in blood. it follows then, that the light switches would have also been covered in blood. if these lights were on and switches were NOT covered in blood, then it follows that the lights were on pre- the removal of the body.
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I've realised that the pics of the bedroom door weren't taken until 15 Feb, so cannot be relied upon as being the state on 13/14 Feb
 
Mr Fossil said:
Many thanks, a conclusive picture that it opens inwards. So leaving it just open would not have been helpful when carrying Reeva. Another nail in version Pistorius.
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image_update_b7d4394cc95c8839_1360867244_9j-4aaqsk.jpeg


It's definitely the front door.
 
Mr Fossil said:
I've realised that the pics of the bedroom door weren't taken until 15 Feb, so cannot be relied upon as being the state on 13/14 Feb
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yes, that would explain why nothing was made of this in the courtroom... defence would have raised 'police tampering'.
doesn't affect my thinking though. :)
 
I so much wanted to watch this trial but life got in the way.

Every time I read he was vomiting or weeping I grew more angry toward him and have not been able to forgive him, especially when he walked passed her parents with a nod and a smile. His arrogance and illegal behavior is made worse because he was admired as someone who overcame obstacles; hence, the fall from grace is more disappointing and perhaps everlasting.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that OP intentionally killed the lovely Reeva. What was his motivation? Being a hot head psychopath may explain it but I was looking for something deeper than a personality disorder. Did the prosecutors offer a motive for OPs actions?

moo jmo omho
 
OP is unemployed and homeless, he is not married and he has no ties to bind him to the community; he spent most of his adult life traveling to compete or training in Italy. Living with an aunt and an uncle after having to sell his own residence hardly shows stability and a commitment to his community, there really is nothing there to demonstrate that he would not want to leave it for a shot at freedom in hiding. As far as the sum of money used to secure his bail, it is nothing compared to the estimated $2.5M (US) that he squandered on his defense and trial, no judge would extend his bond after multiple convictions, including one for murder.

Although he can appeal and he can apply for bail pending the outcome of an appeal it is doubtful that he would receive bail. I make that statement because I have been unable to find a case of a convicted murderer receiving bail pending appeal, be him/her black or white, in SA. Although I have heard of one case, but in that case there was clear evidence presented that would likely find a different verdict from the appealate court, and in OP's appeal about televising the trial or the extension cord or whatever other nonsense Roux cries about I just don't see any real grounds for overturning all of the upcoming convictions that Masipa is going to throw at OP. The notion is just fanciful talk by attorneys that are speaking the truth but not putting it in to the context of what is real life in the SA judicial system. If OP is convicted he will be incarcerated and he will not be granted bail on all of the convictions, it is impossible.
 
Mr Fossil said:
I now see that the doors have the same handles on both sides. Unless you live in Scandinavia or other places with heavy snow, isn't it normal for front doors to open inwards? This means that it's another inconsistency in OP's story ... why didn't he open them wide?

http://multimedia.timeslive.co.za/videos/2014/08/exclusive-oscars-footsteps/ @ 1:40
Click to expand...

BIB

I've never thought about this, but are you sure about it? I live in a part of Canada which gets minimal snow but the front doors open inwards.
 
vansleuths said:
BIB

I've never thought about this, but are you sure about it? I live in a part of Canada which gets minimal snow but the front doors open inwards.
Click to expand...

Sorry, not sure what your point is? Many Scandinavian houses have their doors opening outwards to avoid deep snow falling into the house and to push it away when the door is opened. Notwithstanding this, we have since proven that OP's door opens inwards (see post #1463)

ETA: A little googling also reveals the answer that in Sweden, where it is prevalent, it may also be traditional. In the past they had two doors with a small gap between to create insulation. The inner door opened inwards and the outer door outwards.
 
Viper said:
OP is unemployed and homeless, he is not married and he has no ties to bind him to the community; he spent most of his adult life traveling to compete or training in Italy. Living with an aunt and an uncle after having to sell his own residence hardly shows stability and a commitment to his community, there really is nothing there to demonstrate that he would not want to leave it for a shot at freedom in hiding. As far as the sum of money used to secure his bail, it is nothing compared to the estimated $2.5M (US) that he squandered on his defense and trial, no judge would extend his bond after multiple convictions, including one for murder.

Although he can appeal and he can apply for bail pending the outcome of an appeal it is doubtful that he would receive bail. I make that statement because I have been unable to find a case of a convicted murderer receiving bail pending appeal, be him/her black or white, in SA. Although I have heard of one case, but in that case there was clear evidence presented that would likely find a different verdict from the appealate court, and in OP's appeal about televising the trial or the extension cord or whatever other nonsense Roux cries about I just don't see any real grounds for overturning all of the upcoming convictions that Masipa is going to throw at OP. The notion is just fanciful talk by attorneys that are speaking the truth but not putting it in to the context of what is real life in the SA judicial system. If OP is convicted he will be incarcerated and he will not be granted bail on all of the convictions, it is impossible.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And for the record, that example case I posted where bail pending appeal was not granted, was one of numerous examples I found from a simple Google. And as Cherwell pointed out, the defendant in that case was white not black. Yes there are some differences in their cases, but we're talking about a conviction for murder here, not petty theft. The likelihood of bail being granted is of course incredibly slim. Moreso if you have a bucketload of money and family in other countries I would have thought..and extra extra skim if you've ruffled Masipa up the wrong way with your squirming, lying, narcissistic BS.
 
Mr Fossil said:
Yes. It's a shame Nel didn't get him to detail the sequence more precisely. I don't believe there is time for all this to happen when he says, if you compare it to the call times and him picking Reeva up and carrying her halfway downstairs, at which point the Standers arrive. Add to this: grab keys from on top of speaker, unlock bedroom door, and also switch kitchen light on. The latter because Johan Stander testifies that the kitchen light is on when they arrive. And if we accept that, then he must have gone to the kitchen for a reason.
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I agree with you, but doesn't this actually suggest that he is telling the truth, i.e. that the shots did not take place at 3:17 but earlier than this. This would give enough time for everything to have happened. Even if you take the view that he was lying about going to the kitchen etc, there are things that we know must have happened after the shots, i.e. knocking down the door, and putting on stumps etc, which is still v. difficult to fit into the time available after 3:17.

I think this is going to play an important part in Judge Masipa's reasoning - she asked if the phone timings were common cause for a reason!
 
Exchange973 said:
I agree with you, but doesn't this actually suggest that he is telling the truth, i.e. that the shots did not take place at 3:17 but earlier than this. This would give enough time for everything to have happened. Even if you take the view that he was lying about going to the kitchen etc, there are things that we know must have happened after the shots, i.e. knocking down the door, and putting on stumps etc, which is still v. difficult to fit into the time available after 3:17.

I think this is going to play an important part in Judge Masipa's reasoning - she asked if the phone timings were common cause for a reason!
Click to expand...
I don't think the shots are at 3:17. More like 3:15 to 3:16. The evidence supports this (as I've posted before).

I don't agree we know he "knocked down the door" after the shots. I believe he pulled out the panels, which would be relatively simple if he'd already hit the door (before the shots) with the bat. It takes him 30 seconds to put his prosthetics on. He may then have pulled Reeva out of the toilet. What else has he to do before calling Stander?

We don't know that he actually had to fetch his phone. It's interesting that, for no apparent reason, he mentions he didn't have his phone on him when returning to the bedroom immediately after the shots. But he didn't fetch it then ... he in fact returns to the bedroom 4 times before fetching it! Ooops ... I made the same mistake OP made ... fetching them! We also don't know where he was when he placed any of the calls.

The two relevant quotes from OP's EIC:

After the shots:
"At, umm, some point I decided to ... to walk back to the room because I couldn’t hear anything, my ears were ringing, I couldn’t hear if there was a response or not. I didn’t have the phone on me."

And upon returning to the room for the fourth time:
"I ran back to my bedroom where my phone was, umm, next to the left hand side of the bed ... and I, I ... both my phones were there. I picked them up and I ran back to Reeva."

And to be accurate Masipa did not ask if the phone timings were common cause, she asks if the chronology of events in the Defence HoA are common cause. Nel replies that only the phone data is common cause.

I must also correct something I said (though the effect is the same). It's Carice who says the kitchen lights are on and Stander who says the lights at the bottom of the house are on when they arrive.
 
She asked that of the prosecution ..she did not ask that of defense ..right ?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2
 
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