Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

[Exchange973]

that is a great point...

op has to have reeva disappear... as the invented intruder appears... then the invented intruder fades away... as the real reeva is re-discovered.

you are absolutely right that there is an uncomfortable gap for op - between shooting the 'intruder' and deciding that it was reeva.

and he really has no answer as to why he stopped at four shots [in his version]

I don't understand. Are you saying that if he thought it was an intruder he would have shot more than 4 times?

 

[Exchange973]

My earlier response to the same reaction from another poster was that obviously there was no proof since none of it made it, to our knowledge, to court as evidence, and yes I speculated as to why there would not have been any proof. There was certainly a large contingent of support on/in the crime scene for OP literally minutes after he shot RS dead. Since we have no way of knowing how much OP or his support team may have tampered with the scene both before and during the police investigation all we can do is try to piece together what we've heard and apply whatever facts there are to support the stories. This is besides the fact that Nel had no interest in anything that didn't directly tie in to OP killing RS with intent, ergo why none of the stuff that happened after OP shot and killed her was explored in any depth either, imo.

I wonder if Nels cross examination was cut short by Masipa. It did end rather suddenly and I remember that the day before she was getting a bit annoyed at him going over the same ground over and over and then asked to see both him and Roux in chambers.

I personally agree his going over the points again and again was a deliberate strategy and worked well but I wonder if he had more questions to ask that he never got to.

 

[Mr Fossil]

If the mess was cleaned up before the police arrived, there would be nothing to report on that count.

To the best of my knowledge, van Rensburg arrived around 3:45am and Botha at 4:15.

Plenty of time for a few trophies to be re-shelved and broken pieces swept up/trashed/removed from the scene.

From trawling the net it would appear to me that there was only one source for the story, as all papers appear to report exactly the same details (often same words) with various bits included or excluded (e.g. it was a syndicated piece). To pick up on your point about what time van Rensburg arrives, I note that the articles all refer to the police themselves finding the trophies strewn, so they can't have been cleared up before they arrived. And by then there are also a number of others on site: e.g. Stander, Carice, Stipp, the paramedics. I don't believe it happened, at least not that night.

 

[Val1]

Not fact, I've searched for any articles, one was in DailyStar and an Indian paper, so not reliable sources. In these reports several were broken, this would have been easy to check out if any trophies on his shelf were missing. jmo


http://zeenews.india.com/sports/oth...oor-on-night-of-steenkamps-murder_758203.html

I actually tend to agree, especially since what I've read could be taken in different ways. ie. trophies strewn all over the home... to me that could mean either he put them pretty much in every room(trophies in livingroom, sunglass collection case in upstairs hall, watch collection case in bedroom, medals I would hope all in one of his safes, etc), or someone had a tantrum and plowed through a bunch of them, scattering them all over the floor. From the pics I've seen, OP didn't really seem to care that much about his accolades, well other than his sunglasses and watches, all the rest were stacked willy nilly on a single shelf with what appears to be a box of either trophies or memorabilia just sitting around on the floor below it in his front room... you'd think he was getting rid of clutter which might make looking for any missing a tad difficult.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278518/Oscar-Pistorius-shoots-girlfriend-Reeva-Steenkamp-A-man-cures-insomnia-visits-gun-range.html

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/oscar-pistorius-new-crime-scene-pics/

 

[vansleuths]

I wonder if Nels cross examination was cut short by Masipa. It did end rather suddenly and I remember that the day before she was getting a bit annoyed at him going over the same ground over and over and then asked to see both him and Roux in chambers.

I personally agree his going over the points again and again was a deliberate strategy and worked well but I wonder if he had more questions to ask that he never got to.

BIB

I know judges have a responsibility to ensure that a trial moves toward closure and that questions don't get overly repetitious but if Nel felt uncomfortable opening a new line of questioning regarding the trophies, then this would be a miscarriage of justice.

There's been a few times that I've felt Masipa has rushed both the PT and DT along such as during the heads of arguments when she said that both teams had to finish by the end of the week as she wasn't available the following week.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

[/B]

I don't understand. Are you saying that if he thought it was an intruder he would have shot more than 4 times?

I'm just chiming here , OP on his 3rd account of what happened said he fired 'accidently', he was not in control of the shots firing from the gun, so if that's the case, usually a person in that kind of state would empty the gun and of course fire indiscriminately, OP's shots were in a small area of the door, not all over the place.

So that basically shoots down his own version. jmo

 

[Mr Fossil]

Did OP make two trips upstairs? Stipp says he was outside talking to Stander when he saw OP go upstairs. He asks Stander where the gun is. The response car and ambulance then arrive (both at the same time? Stipp refers to 'they') and, as there's nothing he can do, he leaves. The ambulance arrives at the security gate at 03:41:58. The paramedics announce time of death at 03:50, after which they ask for ID and OP goes upstairs and is followed up by Carice (who hears him walk on the tiled floor). This seems to say he went up twice but I see nothing in Stander's evidence for this. I have always assumed that both instances were in fact the same instance.

 

[K.T]

Article in psychology & counselling blog, on Pistorius guilt and the reasoning and analysis behind his past and present behaviour.

It's valid and similar to what has been discussed here, agree with most points and find the writing a good background overview.

Under the 'Oscar's Recklass and Irresponsible Nature' it lists a 2006 incident in an Amerstardam Airport where he was detained over a false declaration in his plane ticket and they also found explosive material on his legs...presumably gunpowder. After reading a truckload of articles, I'm surprised I haven't heard if this incident before? Anyone else knew about this airport detainment, or have we discussed this in previous posts... It does sound like yet another Pistorius unthinking, brainless 'mistakes'.

http://thoughtsonlifeandlove.com/psychologists-opinion-oscar-pistorius-trial/

 

[vansleuths]

Not fact, I've searched for any articles, one was in DailyStar and an Indian paper, so not reliable sources. In these reports several were broken, this would have been easy to check out if any trophies on his shelf were missing. jmo


http://zeenews.india.com/sports/oth...oor-on-night-of-steenkamps-murder_758203.html

Thanks, I just saw these articles on Google as well.

I did a search on the PT and DT's heads of arguments and neither side referenced trophies in their closing documentation.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

BIB

I know judges have a responsibility to ensure that a trial moves toward closure and that questions don't get overly repetitious but if Nel felt uncomfortable opening a new line of questioning regarding the trophies, then this would be a miscarriage of justice.

There's been a few times that I've felt Masipa has rushed both the PT and DT along such as during the heads of arguments when she said that both teams had to finish by the end of the week as she wasn't available the following week.

That really surprised me when she said that. As important as HOA are, I'd think they're not something to be rushed - especially in a murder trial.

However, maybe this is a sign she had essentially made up her mind, didn't want to waste any more time and wants to render her verdict?

 

[saraomar]

No, the kitchen is opposite the foot of the stairs. See http://multimedia.timeslive.co.za/videos/2014/08/exclusive-oscars-footsteps/

Hi guys, cannot view this video!!!! Anyone have any other links? Thx

 

[JudgeJudi]

Respectfully snipped>

So these cases are rather unique.

ETA: Masipa has conducted this trial as incredibly fair as she has to avoid this eventuality. If I can make an assumption, she probably had an inkling that OP was guilty as hell from the beginning and wanted to make sure he got the fairest of fair trials. Remember that there is a difference between bail pending appeal and bail once an appeal has been granted. I'm sure Roux will manage to secure an appeal process on a dubious ground or two but even then I doubt there will be sufficient likelihood of that appeal's success in order to sway any judge to grant leave while it's being processed, let alone before it's even been granted!

BIB 1. I would suggest that all murder trials are unique in some way. Why do you think barristers libraries in chambers are so massive ... because decisions in cases are constantly being upheld, reversed, etc etc etc

BIB 2: What do you mean by this? If Masipa grants an appeal it will take approx. 18 months to reach the Court of Appeal. The appeal takes the form of argument between counsel and the convicted person doesn't usually attend. This argument normally only takes 1 or 2 days. So bail would be extended for approx. 18 months.

Please read my post further up the page #1511.

"321 When execution of sentence may be suspended

(1) The execution of the sentence of a superior court shall not be suspended by reason of any appeal against a conviction or by reason of any question of law having been reserved for consideration by the court of appeal, unless -
...

(b) the superior court from which the appeal is made or by which the question is reserved thinks fit to order that the accused be released on bail or that he be treated as an unconvicted prisoner until the appeal or the question reserved has been heard and decided:

Provided that when the accused is ultimately sentenced to imprisonment the time during which he was so released on bail shall be excluded in computing the term for which he is so sentenced."

 

[PrimeSuspect]

That really surprised me when she said that. As important as HOA are, I'd think they're not something to be rushed - especially in a murder trial.

However, maybe this is a sign she had essentially made up her mind, didn't want to waste any more time and wants to render her verdict?

I hope that's true and it's what we think it will be.

Imo, Roux did stretch this case out, not having witnesses arrive on the day and so on. But we later found out why, they were lining up the social worker and the psychologist. They were desperate at that stage. jmo

 

[vansleuths]

That really surprised me when she said that. As important as HOA are, I'd think they're not something to be rushed - especially in a murder trial.

However, maybe this is a sign she had essentially made up her mind, didn't want to waste any more time and wants to render her verdict?

Wouldn't it be nice to be a fly on the wall and know what she is thinking at this time

 

[vansleuths]

Article in psychology & counselling blog, on Pistorius guilt and the reasoning and analysis behind his past and present behaviour.

It's valid and similar to what has been discussed here, agree with most points and find the writing a good background overview.

Under the 'Oscar's Recklass and Irresponsible Nature' it lists a 2006 incident in an Amerstardam Airport where he was detained over a false declaration in his plane ticket and they also found explosive material on his legs...presumably gunpowder. After reading a truckload of articles, I'm surprised I haven't heard if this incident before? Anyone else knew about this airport detainment, or have we discussed this in previous posts... It does sound like yet another Pistorius unthinking, brainless 'mistakes'.

http://thoughtsonlifeandlove.com/psychologists-opinion-oscar-pistorius-trial/

Thanks for the link, there's some new information in it that I wasn't aware of such as the legs/gunpowder that you mentioned above.

I hope as a minimum (keyword minimum), the author's assessment at this link is correct, and I quote:

"Mandy X
PS. My prediction for the sentencing: Guilty of murder – 15 years. Guilty of associated firearms charges – 5 years in total. Twenty year jail sentence. Time will tell…"

 

[Val1]

No, the kitchen is opposite the foot of the stairs. See http://multimedia.timeslive.co.za/videos/2014/08/exclusive-oscars-footsteps/

Hi guys, cannot view this video!!!! Anyone have any other links? Thx

Do you have Adobe Flash? That's the only thing that would stop me as I have a script blocker on so have to give permission on everything...

 

[PrimeSuspect]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-5-3804385

Came across this pic while searching other stuff and it struck me as important for some reason, ordinarily this photo would be considered endearing, his uncle clearly loves his nephew. OP almost seems childlike as his tie is being straightened by his 'caregiver', I wonder what he is saying? Imo, he still has that 'little boy' appearance in certain instances, maybe for family only? :thinking: While other times he looks smug, intense and accusatory especially towards people outside the family like Reeva's family and friends, Nel (lol).

 

[K.T]

Following on from that last article I just posted, the psychologist author again talks again about the probability that Pistorius had a narcissistic disorder or narcissistic personality, which played a role in the escalation towards homicide on the Valentines day shooting.

I've always wondered if Pistorius - like others such as O.J Simpson, Spector, etc. - may have an Acquired Narcissistic disorder (or 'hubris' syndrome) whereby inherent narcissistic traits are exacerbated by delusions of grandeur, entitlement, solipsism and pathological immaturity. This syndrome is still theoretical, and is even less researched than narcissism disorder, but the differences in how a 'hubris' syndrome manifests may make masking or revealing it's personality disorder signifiers complicated for current psych tests.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/02/12/brain.awp008.full
http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/acquired-situational-narcissism.html

 

[vansleuths]

View attachment 58125

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-murder-trial-5-3804385

Came across this pic while searching other stuff and it struck me as important for some reason, ordinarily this photo would be considered endearing, his uncle clearly loves his nephew. OP almost seems childlike as his tie is being straightened by his 'caregiver', I wonder what he is saying? Imo, he still has that 'little boy' appearance in certain instances, maybe for family only? :thinking: While other times he looks smug, intense and accusatory especially towards people outside the family like Reeva's family and friends, Nel (lol).

He does look a bit child like in this picture. I bet you when he is on his stumps and not as stable, people are more "motherly" or "fatherly" towards him. I remember during his time in the witness box, he said that Reeva called him to the bathroom to brush his teeth. I can just imagine Reeva standing next to OP on his stumps in the bathroom brushing his teeth, almost like a parent watching over his/her child.

 

[Val1]

Following on from that last article I just posted, the psychologist author again talks again about the probability that a Pistorius had a narcissistic disorder or narcissistic personality, which played a role in the escalation towards homicide on the Valentines day shooting.

I've always wondered if Pistorius - like others such as O.J Simpson, Spector, etc. - may have an acquired narcissistic disorder (or 'hubris' syndrome) whereby inherent narcissistic traits are exacerbated by delusions of grandeur, entitlement, solipsism and pathological immaturity. This syndrome is still theoretical, and is even less researched than narcissism disorder, but the differences in how a 'hubris' syndrome manifests may make masking or revealing it's signifiers more complicated for current psych tests.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/02/12/brain.awp008.full
http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/acquired-situational-narcissism.html

You mean like "Angry Angus"?

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/16/pistorius-family-had-issues-involving-wooden-doors---in-1844

Carel Pistorius's fierce misogyny and obdurate nature resulted in his being dubbed "Kwaai Angus" (Angry Angus) by his neighbours.

"This formidable character had a particular mistrust of women and cheques. His mistrust of women evinced by the fact that into his heavy wooden front door were carved the words 'Women Deceiveth Ever'."

Exactly 170 years later, Oscar Pistorius -- who may be descended from one of Carel's four brothers -- stood in the dock of the Pretoria High Court, defending himself against a murder charge after shooting through the wooden toilet door in his Pretoria townhouse.