Thought and theories on Jeremy

[norest4thewicked]

This post could hve been a response to any of the posts about phones. That said AND in the spirit of debate:

As I am reading these posts something came to mind about Juggalos and social media. "Social networking websites are a popular conveyance for Juggalo sub-culture to communicate and expand,” the FBI warns.http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/fbi-gang-insane-clown-posse/

IMHO A reason the phones may be missing is that there are pictures of the crime of abduction being committed. We have seen videos online and people arrested for videotaping their crimes. The beating of David Ivins in New Jersey comes to mind. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/tag/david-ivins/

While Jeremy's reasoning may be that they didn't want us to call anyone, he is not a Juggalo; he is a lower middle class father of 2, homeowner, working to maintain a certain level of comfort for his little family. Is he able to comprehend the mindset of a criminal who would, being familiar with the neighborhood, see an opportunity to steal a child, take pics of it AND load those pics of the crime on ICP/Juggalo sites? IMHO I don't think that Jeremy thinks in those terms. I do believe, from crime stats, that Juggalos are capable of this type of action.

I don't believe that MW and her 'posse' can be discounted. I also don't believe that Jeremy would have any concept of this type of criminal mindset, except in the abstract.

I think that pulling the Juggalo aspect back into this is going around in circles. For one thing, although we know that MW considered herself a Juggalo (wannabe), we know nothing about the other people in that house, save for Dane, and he just seems like a petty . Did he ever proclaim that he was a Juggalo?

I think that we have one Juggalo wannabe in this case and now we've jumped to her stealing a baby to "upload the crime on a Juggalo site" is just going waaaaay too far. Occams razor and all.

 

[Jacie Estes]

MOO and all that ...

A few days ago, I was reading about Analyses of 9-1-1 Calls and the IMPORTANCE of that initial call to 9-1-1 for help from LE, for medical help, etc. Very interesting info on 9-1-1 calls, and how that 9-1-1 call can be very "telling".

And Jeremy made the 9-1-1 call here : I sure wish lease: LE would release that 9-1-1 call as it may give some "clues" ...

- I would like to hear EXACTLY what Jeremy reported to the 9-1-1 operator ...

- I would like to know IF Jeremy told the 9-1-1 operator about the "cell phones" being "missing" -- besides Lisa being missing -- as well as WHAT Jeremy said about the Window, the Front Door, the Lights ...

- I would like to hear the "tone" of Jeremy's "voice" in the 9-1-1 call -- was he "frantic" :waitasec: I know, probably not ... was he "calm" :waitasec: ...

- I would also like to hear what VERSION of the "story" Jeremy initially gave 9-1-1 ....

- I would like to hear IF there is "anything else" in the background -- like Deb telling Jeremy WHAT to SAY to the 9-1-1 operator -- KWIM ?

- I would like to know IF the 2 boys were up -- I know I know -- thinking of Ramsey case here ... ya never know ... :waitasec:

I am sure there is more things to add to the list ... but this is what I have come up with so far...

lease: Please LE release that 9-1-1 call ...

MOO ...

So, at this time we have no concrete facts about the 911 call, correct?

If the scanner thread is used as a reference, a 911 call can be as simple as ' Our son is missing, get your +++++ over here, now'.

The 911 call is an unknown factor, at this time, and not relatable to anything. IMHO

 

[Jacie Estes]

I think that pulling the Juggalo aspect back into this is going around in circles. For one thing, although we know that MW considered herself a Juggalo (wannabe), we know nothing about the other people in that house, save for Dane, and he just seems like a petty . Did he ever proclaim that he was a Juggalo?

I think that we have one Juggalo wannabe in this case and now we've jumped to her stealing a baby to "upload the crime on a Juggalo site" is just going waaaaay too far. Occams razor and all.

BBM I don't believe it is. IMHO It is an option that is an unknown, as well as DB DID IT is an unknown. IMHO

we know nothing about the other people in that house Exactly and that is why it can't be discounted. IMHO

 

[norest4thewicked]

BBM I don't believe it is. IMHO It is an option that is an unknown, as well as DB DID IT is an unknown. IMHO

we know nothing about the other people in that house Exactly and that is why it can't be discounted. IMHO

But, why Juggalo? Why not pedophile, serial killer, human trafficking, mother wanting a baby of her own? All of these things are possible...anything is possible...but the facts are that statistics show that babies die at their parents hand more than all of these other things put together. I just don't buy it.

And, I just realized that this is OT for this thread, so I'm not going to expound on that here anymore anyway.

 

[cityslick]

As far as JI is concerned, the only thing we know of the others in the house was that none of them knew JI/DB as per RR.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

I'm not sure if you'll get as much of a detailed story in the 911 call. I would think usually it would be something as simple as 'I came home and my daughter is missing from her crib, we can't find her'.

:seeya: Let me try to explain it better :innocent: : It is NOT just about the "details" in the 9-1-1 call -- there is so much more to look at ...

BBM: JMO but this would raise "red flags" ... It starts off with "I" -- then "my daughter is missing" :

A very FRANTIC parent would tell 9-1-1 WHAT the emergency is 1st -- which is that the baby is MISSING -- NOT that they came home ... also, was there "emotion" in the caller's voice ? lack of emotion ? :waitasec: Well, JMO but with Jeremy, I wouldn't expect much ...


There is the TONE of the Voice of the caller that is looked at by investigators ...

IF the caller requested HELP and WHO the caller requested the help for -- did the caller reqeust help for the "victim" -- or themselves ?

The use of the "pronouns" by the caller ... "I" or "We" ... or "They" ... this can be very telling ... Read some of Deb's statements regarding the number of "I's" she uses ... as to Jeremy, well, if Deb would let him talk more ... :waitasec:

Also looked at is IF there are any kinds of ramblings, repetition, or unnecessary info ...


JMO but I would really like to HEAR it for myself what Jeremy said and HOW he said it ...

I think it would be very tellinlg ...

MOO and all that ...

 

[Jacie Estes]

But, why Juggalo? Why not pedophile, serial killer, human trafficking, mother wanting a baby of her own? All of these things are possible...anything is possible...but the facts are that statistics show that babies die at their parents hand more than all of these other things put together. I just don't buy it.

And, I just realized that this is OT for this thread, so I'm not going to expound on that here anymore anyway.

IMHO Jeremy is not a baby killer, nor is he a dead baby disposer.

As for the other aspects; I raised them in response to Jeremy's statement about the phones. Jeremy may believe one thing, given his mindset, when the opposite may be the case. IMHO

 

[RANCH]

:seeya: Let me try to explain it better :innocent: : It is NOT just about the "details" in the 9-1-1 call -- there is so much more to look at ...

BBM: JMO but this would raise "red flags" ... It starts off with "I" -- then "my daughter is missing" :

A very FRANTIC parent would tell 9-1-1 WHAT the emergency is 1st -- which is that the baby is MISSING -- NOT that they came home ... also, was there "emotion" in the caller's voice ? lack of emotion ? :waitasec: Well, JMO but with Jeremy, I wouldn't expect much ...


There is the TONE of the Voice of the caller that is looked at by investigators ...

IF the caller requested HELP and WHO the caller requested the help for -- did the caller reqeust help for the "victim" -- or themselves ?

The use of the "pronouns" by the caller ... "I" or "We" ... or "They" ... this can be very telling ... Read some of Deb's statements regarding the number of "I's" she uses ... as to Jeremy, well, if Deb would let him talk more ... :waitasec:

Also looked at is IF there are any kinds of ramblings, repetition, or unnecessary info ...


JMO but I would really like to HEAR it for myself what Jeremy said and HOW he said it ...

I think it would be very tellinlg ...

MOO and all that ...

I can guaranty that if the 911 call is released there will be people that find fault with Jeremy. Every single statement he has made shows deception or guilt to some. I doubt that the 911 call would be any different.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

So, at this time we have no concrete facts about the 911 call, correct?

If the scanner thread is used as a reference, a 911 call can be as simple as ' Our son is missing, get your +++++ over here, now'.

The 911 call is an unknown factor, at this time, and not relatable to anything. IMHO

BBM : The 9-1-1 call has NOT been released ... now WHY won't LE release it ? 9-1-1 calls are public record in MOST states ... WHY won't LE release this particular 9-1-1 call ?

RBBM: Repsectfully I totally disagree ... that 9-1-1 has "something" in it -- otherwise, LE would have just released it ...

LE has been -- and continues to be :silenced:

JMO but there is "something" in Jeremy's 9-1-1 call that LE does NOT want released to the public -- and it is probably something that will aid in their investigation ...

Again JMO ... but 9-1-1 calls are VERY IMPORTANT -- they are used in courtrooms all the time ...

lease: I sure wish LE would release this call because IMO, it will give some "clues" as to what Jeremy's initial reaction was regarding his "involvement" -- or lack of involvement ...

JMO and MOO and all that ...

:seeya:

 

[hambirg]

This post could hve been a response to any of the posts about phones. That said AND in the spirit of debate:

As I am reading these posts something came to mind about Juggalos and social media. "Social networking websites are a popular conveyance for Juggalo sub-culture to communicate and expand,” the FBI warns.http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/fbi-gang-insane-clown-posse/

IMHO A reason the phones may be missing is that there are pictures of the crime of abduction being committed. We have seen videos online and people arrested for videotaping their crimes. The beating of David Ivins in New Jersey comes to mind. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/tag/david-ivins/

While Jeremy's reasoning may be that they didn't want us to call anyone, he is not a Juggalo; he is a lower middle class father of 2, homeowner, working to maintain a certain level of comfort for his little family. Is he able to comprehend the mindset of a criminal who would, being familiar with the neighborhood, see an opportunity to steal a child, take pics of it AND load those pics of the crime on ICP/Juggalo sites? IMHO I don't think that Jeremy thinks in those terms. I do believe, from crime stats, that Juggalos are capable of this type of action.

I don't believe that MW and her 'posse' can be discounted. I also don't believe that Jeremy would have any concept of this type of criminal mindset, except in the abstract.

Why wouldn't they use their own phone?

Has there been an upload on some Juggalo sight of this crime?

Wouldn't there have to be 2 Juggalos? One doing the crime and one video taping it?

Why would they need all 3 phones, if it only takes one to record the crime?

And just as an aside, is there a history of Juggalos stealing babies? Is this something they do?

 

[hambirg]

So, at this time we have no concrete facts about the 911 call, correct?

If the scanner thread is used as a reference, a 911 call can be as simple as ' Our son is missing, get your +++++ over here, now'.

The 911 call is an unknown factor, at this time, and not relatable to anything. IMHO

We can make a few inferences from what the dispatcher knows. BL is gone, JI just came home from work, and the window is open/tampered with.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Why wouldn't they use their own phone?

Has there been an upload on some Juggalo sight of this crime?

Wouldn't there have to be 2 Juggalos? One doing the crime and one video taping it?

Why would they need all 3 phones, if it only takes one to record the crime?

And just as an aside, is there a history of Juggalos stealing babies? Is this something they do?

Perhaps we need a Juggalo thread?

My post was about Jeremy's response to the phones missing. He would not understand the mindset of that element of society AND a self-professed Jugallette has admitted to walking through the neighborhood and HER phone was the one an attempted phone call from a phone in Jeremy's house was made to. Is that phone call a myth? We don't know. Getting back to Jeremy; he stated the phones were taken so that no one in the house could call LE. I raised another option that is my opinion given everything I raised in the previous sentences. IMHO

 

[dog.gone.cute]

I can guaranty that if the 911 call is released there will be people that find fault with Jeremy. Every single statement he has made shows deception or guilt to some. I doubt that the 911 call would be any different.

:seeya: Ya never know ... :waitasec: Jeremy might just "surprise" a few ... :waitasec: well, maybe not ... LOL !

The 9-1-1 call is NOT just about finding "fault" with Jeremy -- it just might answer some questions ...

The 9-1-1 call IS the initial info being given to LE regarding what happened to Baby Lisa :

And that 9-1-1 call will absolutely PROVE that Jeremy and Deb have changed their stories SINCE their INITIAL CALL TO LE !

And that is WHY I want to HEAR IT ... HOW MUCH of their "story" has changed since the INITIAL reporting ?

JMO and MOO and all that ...

 

[liltexans]

Perhaps we need a Juggalo thread?

My post was about Jeremy's response to the phones missing. He would not understand the mindset of that element of society AND a self-professed Jugallette has admitted to walking through the neighborhood and HER phone was the one an attempted phone call from a phone in Jeremy's house was made to. Is that phone call a myth? We don't know. Getting back to Jeremy; he stated the phones were taken so that no one in the house could call LE. I raised another option that is my opinion given everything I raised in the previous sentences. IMHO

BBM.

Belimom recently started a Juggalo connection thread in the Hailey Dunn forum. Here's a link to it if you want to look it over and decide if you want to start a similar thread here in Lisa's forum (with mod approval of course).

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153043"]Juggalo connection? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Jacie Estes]

BBM : The 9-1-1 call has NOT been released ... now WHY won't LE release it ? 9-1-1 calls are public record in MOST states ... WHY won't LE release this particular 9-1-1 call ?

RBBM: Repsectfully I totally disagree ... that 9-1-1 has "something" in it -- otherwise, LE would have just released it ...

LE has been -- and continues to be :silenced:

JMO but there is "something" in Jeremy's 9-1-1 call that LE does NOT want released to the public -- and it is probably something that will aid in their investigation ...

Again JMO ... but 9-1-1 calls are VERY IMPORTANT -- they are used in courtrooms all the time ...

lease: I sure wish LE would release this call because IMO, it will give some "clues" as to what Jeremy's initial reaction was regarding his "involvement" -- or lack of involvement ...

JMO and MOO and all that ...

:seeya:

IMHO

It is my opinion that since the call hasn't been released that there are no known facts as to voice inflection, phrasing or any other nuance of that 911 call. IMHO

fwiw, when our son was an infant I found him limp in his crib, not responsive. I grabbed him and the cell phone, calling 911 as I went to the front lawn to wait for help. My total info on the 911 call was , 'this is Jacie, +++++'s wife, the baby is unconscious, please hurry.'

LE found me sitting on the front lawn rocking our son, I don't remember any of what happened next until we found out it was a kidney stone [I had had them during pregnancy and our son had one at a few months old.]

A 911 call CAN be descriptive or it MAY be just a few words. IMHO

 

[DeAnn]

BBM : The 9-1-1 call has NOT been released ... now WHY won't LE release it ? 9-1-1 calls are public record in MOST states ... WHY won't LE release this particular 9-1-1 call ?

RBBM: Repsectfully I totally disagree ... that 9-1-1 has "something" in it -- otherwise, LE would have just released it ...

LE has been -- and continues to be :silenced:

JMO but there is "something" in Jeremy's 9-1-1 call that LE does NOT want released to the public -- and it is probably something that will aid in their investigation ...

Again JMO ... but 9-1-1 calls are VERY IMPORTANT -- they are used in courtrooms all the time ...

lease: I sure wish LE would release this call because IMO, it will give some "clues" as to what Jeremy's initial reaction was regarding his "involvement" -- or lack of involvement ...

JMO and MOO and all that ...

:seeya:

Missouri Sunshine Law excepts 911 calls in the case of criminal investigations. Period. Whether it's a high profile case like Baby Lisa or you call 911 to say my purse was stolen from my car. Doesn't matter what's said. They are exempt.

Police in Missouri are loathe to release them because they don't want to set precedent.

So doesn't matter what's in MOST states. What matters is Missouri. Period.

 

[RANCH]

:seeya: Ya never know ... :waitasec: Jeremy might just "surprise" a few ... :waitasec: well, maybe not ... LOL !

The 9-1-1 call is NOT just about finding "fault" with Jeremy -- it just might answer some questions ...

The 9-1-1 call IS the initial info being given to LE regarding what happened to Baby Lisa :

And that 9-1-1 call will absolutely PROVE that Jeremy and Deb have changed their stories SINCE their INITIAL CALL TO LE !

And that is WHY I want to HEAR IT ... HOW MUCH of their "story" has changed since the INITIAL reporting ?

JMO and MOO and all that ...

Interesting. Without hearing the 911 call you already know that it will "prove" that DB/JI have changed their "story". You make my point even stronger than I did.

 

[hambirg]

Perhaps we need a Juggalo thread?

My post was about Jeremy's response to the phones missing. He would not understand the mindset of that element of society AND a self-professed Jugallette has admitted to walking through the neighborhood and HER phone was the one an attempted phone call from a phone in Jeremy's house was made to. Is that phone call a myth? We don't know. Getting back to Jeremy; he stated the phones were taken so that no one in the house could call LE. I raised another option that is my opinion given everything I raised in the previous sentences. IMHO

But why does JI share the phone info with us? That could be an important investigative tool for LE to use if the public doesn't know about the phones.

Why does JI qualify his statement with "so we couldn't call 911"? He wouldn't know why the intruder took the phones. Is it more of an explanation of his own behavior?

 

[norest4thewicked]

IMHO Jeremy is not a baby killer, nor is he a dead baby disposer.

As for the other aspects; I raised them in response to Jeremy's statement about the phones. Jeremy may believe one thing, given his mindset, when the opposite may be the case. IMHO

BBM

Did I say that Jeremy was a baby killer or a dead baby disposer? I didn't. So, how can you say that he isn't? I don't believe that any of us were there that night and none of us know what is in anyone elses minds or hearts.

 

[Jacie Estes]

But why does JI share the phone info with us? That could be an important investigative tool for LE to use if the public doesn't know about the phones.

Why does JI qualify his statement with "so we couldn't call 911"? He wouldn't know why the intruder took the phones. Is it more of an explanation of his own behavior?

Jeremy is not a media-savvy guy; he is just a Dad who has lost a baby and has other babies to worry about. He was concerned about the lights, it costs money to have them on. He was concerned about the window/screen, again things that cost money to be repaired. He is concerned about the phones, the fact that the bill wasn't paid, money again, meant that there was no way to contact the outside world, in an emergency, AND replacing them would cost more money that he had to work hard to obtain. He is just a guy who thinks in basic terms, he is not a criminal mastermind.

I totally understand why he said 'so we couldn't call 911'; he was at work and came home to a disaster, his first response is call for help. Phones are missng. He called 911, he didn't, IMHO, take his baby's lifeless body and throw it in the river and he didn't 'hatch' a plan to cover up his baby's death. If Lisa did die in that home by accident or any one of the theories being floated that involves Deborah, it is my opinion that we would have seen a fight between them and there would have not been the concerted response that we saw. Jeremy fought to get his son by RR, why would he not fight for Lisa?