TH's polygraphs

[Day Dreamer]

I have no idea what terri was doing/thinking during these polys. I've said it before, but unless someone has been arrested I can't point my finger at someone and not give them a fair chance. I'm usually wrong though.... I like all the facts before I jump fence. I do that with everything in life....

Respectfully snipped. That is a good way to look at things. I was not convinced at first; but, all that has come out leads me to believe she is responsible. For me, it just seems that there is too much that has happened for it to be a coincidence that Kyron disappeared while in her custody.

With that said, I am still open to other possibilities. If LE can find evidence to the contrary, I want to hear it.

 

[RubyRed]

Kaine Horman describes how Terri Moulton Horman 'vented' after flunking her polygraph​

Terri Moulton Horman walks with her attorney, Stephen Houze, from Houze's offices in Southwest Portland Thursday.​

Kaine Horman said Terri Moulton Horman came home from taking her first polygraph examination after Kyron's disappearance and "vented her failed results to all family, friends, and law enforcement at the house."​

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kaine_horman_describes_how_ter.html​

 

[ami]

Kaine said in one of the videoed interview/q&a sessions with DY that they could not share the reasons TH used in her rants about why she failed the tests. So clearly she'd said something interesting. I mean LE would hardly keep them from telling the public "Oh, she said she was nervous and sad" or similar.

If she's NPD, I get why she would vent and tell everyone she failed afterwards. I have an NPD uncle (married-in uncle) who was polygraphed for a job, failed, and then ranted for literally years about it. He was outraged. He even wrote a complaint to the prospective employers (I'm sure they loved that). And you know what - he failed because he'd been convicted of theft and lied about it during the polygraph. He'd just been so sure that the rules didn't apply to him, that he would pass even though he was lying, that he was outraged to have failed. He probably still tells the story to this day about the way he was "set up" during the test, wherever he is. Who knows. Anyway, that's my experience with NPD and poly's. So IF she were NPD, I wouldn't be surprised that she'd yell it out loud that she failed, complain about it, and still weirdly return for another poly anyway.

 

[Haeve]

Kaine said in one of the videoed interview/q&a sessions with DY that they could not share the reasons TH used in her rants about why she failed the tests. So clearly she'd said something interesting. I mean LE would hardly keep them from telling the public "Oh, she said she was nervous and sad" or similar.

If she's NPD, I get why she would vent and tell everyone she failed afterwards. I have an NPD uncle (married-in uncle) who was polygraphed for a job, failed, and then ranted for literally years about it. He was outraged. He even wrote a complaint to the prospective employers (I'm sure they loved that). And you know what - he failed because he'd been convicted of theft and lied about it during the polygraph. He'd just been so sure that the rules didn't apply to him, that he would pass even though he was lying, that he was outraged to have failed. He probably still tells the story to this day about the way he was "set up" during the test, wherever he is. Who knows. Anyway, that's my experience with NPD and poly's. So IF she were NPD, I wouldn't be surprised that she'd yell it out loud that she failed, complain about it, and still weirdly return for another poly anyway.

My mother has NPD (undiagnosed but very likely) and she's very similar. I can't give too many details because it's TMPI, but she created a situation for herself over a long period of time (over 30 years) that she finally got in trouble for. She ranted to anyone who would listen about the injustice of it all.

Those of us in the know knew she didn't have a leg to stand on--many people had tried to help her over the years. People who didn't know the whole story just thought she was being unfairly persecuted. One fellow who writes guest columns for the paper was actually going to write a column about what the horrible horrible powers-that-be had done to her.

I told him the real story and said that he could do whatever he wanted, but that under scrutiny the story would fall apart, because she had brought this upon herself, and he might end look up looking like a fool, as well as bringing unwelcome media scrutiny to our family in a time of crisis. He graciously backed off of the "exposé" story, but he did reiterate how delightful he found my mother.

And as an aside, one of the "powers that be" who was working with my mother in regards to the situation was, in her opinion, such a great guy, so nice, so helpful...until he said he had done all he could legally and he could no longer let the situation continue. As I had predicted, he went from "great guy" to "&$#*&%" in 0 to 60. :crazy:

So I could totally picture (in MOH armchair I-am-not-a-psychologist and we-do-not-know-anything-about-Terri's-possible-diagnosis opinion) TH ranting about how unfair this all was to her, whether she had a role in Kyron's disappearance or not.

ETA: Like your uncle, Ami, my mother rants for years about perceived slights and injustices, and she blames others for the recent situation that I talk about above. She could also reel off every major and minor sin and transgression I ever committed since birth if it suited her purposes.

 

[eyes4crime]

BBM Yes, it is possible that she is being set up; however, if she were being set up who sent the sexting and graphic photos to MC and the landscaper? If she were being set up it would take an amazing amount of work to set up all of the things that have come out against her.

Then, if she was set up, it sure has been convenient for the perp that she has not been truthful when talking w/ LE, she is accused of trying to have her husband murdered, has used the same tactics on MC that she used on the landscaper ... oh, and let us not forget, she has failed 2 polygraphs and walked out on another.

For me, there is just too much to be a coincidence and too much to be a set up. If it is a set up Terri has done nothing but aide the perp w/ her behavior.

Hi Day Dreamer. When I say Terri may have been setup for the crime, I'm thinking about someone who may have used Terri to get specifics of the school and how the school operates on special days with science fairs and talent shows and finding out from Terri her plans for the day. I consider it a possibility and throw it into the mix along with a few other theories.

As for Terri sexting, that might be the actions of a lonely, unhappy, and desperate woman and nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance. It might be the actions of a woman who is lacking sexual stimulation in her marriage and finds some at a distance. Maybe Mr. C. is a predator of the lonely and vulnerable. :frown: Fact of the matter is, we don't know! moo

As for the gardner: I didn't know Terri was sexting him. I don't know if she was making a joke or expressing a big wish that her husband be murdered. Interesting that when he returned for the 'sting', Terri called 911. Fact is: there are no charges and I am unable to say that this has anything to do with missing Kyron.

As for the polygraphs: They are nonsense! Medications, street drugs, underlying disease states, and emotional states affect the results. Many are told they have failed when indeed the result was inconclusive or 'pass'. LE can tell a person whatever they want and are under no obligation to be truthful regarding polygraphs.

Innocent, guilty, set-up, or the work of several, until evidence is presented as 'fact' I chose to withhold my verdict. moo

 

[Mylou]

Since the Green River Killer passed his LDT, I tend to have more suspicions with people who pass with flying colors. I just don't trust them.

 

[Wrinkles]

Hello Ami and Haeve,

Two great posts revealing some important insight! I'd like to share another anecdote to add to the insight of how NPDs (or those who certainly appear to be one, but who have not yet been diagnosed) respond to certain things...

Just real quickly and for insight into the NPD brain... The other day, my mother came to visit, invited for dinner. I shared with her about my husband -- who she adores because he dotes on her and would NEVER cross her -- explaining a flock of medical tests that he had just been through to make sure that he was not experiencing some of the toxic (potentially deadly) side effects of the particular heart medicine he is on. Towards the end of my explanation, she asked the name of the heart medicine (she did NOT know what it was.) I told her (I did not spell it out, though she is an ace at spelling and usually likes to know, there was no time to spell at the moment.)

Later, at the dinner table, my husband took his turn to speak (in a sense of shared convo at a dinner table), commencing to tell her about his tests (he didn't know that I had). She immediately tried to "alleviate" his need to speak, after all, if she can short circuit the speaking of others (as soon as they open their mouth), she can go on and on and on about "her." "Yes, I already know about those tests!" Heck, in my mom's mind my husband didn't need to speak -- my mom was already fully aware of the tests -- she expressed no concern about what he wanted to say, she knew what he was going to say, he could shut up so that she could speak (and repeat "about her").

Somewhat offended by the shutdown to my husband (and particularly the way it was done), I think I said something like, "Mom, you only know about those tests because I just told you." (kind of like saying, "he would like to share his experience and thoughts with you.") BTW, BIG MISTAKE, never challenge an NPD! I still have not learned how to communicate in a way to stay off the toes of an NPD! My mom responded back in an immediate biting shutdown to me -- one designed to impress my husband about how concerned she has been (yeah right), "NO, I HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS!" I couldn't believe my ears. If I had stopped to challenge her veracity at that point (like, "So how do you spell the name of the drug he is on, and which tests did he need to determine if he is having side effects?") we would have had a melt down.

So back on topic... That which is important to the NPD is that they are the center of attention. It is all about "them." BUT...do not challenge their truthfulness, you just might find yourself, at the very least, shutdown in quick order OR the victim of their rage.

Now then... I have been thinking... That first LDT that Terri took was around the beginning of Kyron going missing. Then there was the 2nd, walked out on after initial questions and before hook up to the machine ...then the 3rd. The 2nd and 3rd tests were days after the first, the 3rd maybe being close to 2 weeks later? Just WHAT might have been known at that time, what questions might have been added to the LDT at that time to freak TH out?

Is it possible that the 2nd test started approaching questions that were more specific about that which TH had told LE about the day Kyron went missing? Perhaps, by the time the 2nd test was applied, they KNEW she was not at the locations she had said she was on that day. Maybe a question such as, "Is it possible that you went shopping at Albertsons on X street on the day Kyron went missing?" Or "Is it possible that you went to Sauvie Island instead of the gym on the day Kyron went missing?"

And about the 3rd test... Might another question or set of questions have been added due to what had been learned as of the date she went to take it? "Have you ever hired a landscaper to manage your lawn and garden?" or "We are aware that you had a landscaper working for you. Would you be surprised to learn that someone tried to hire this landscaper to kill their husband once?"

Oh how I would LOVE to hear the questions that were asked of TH, the answers to the questions AND the response of the LDT at the time of the test/answers. I would especially like to hear this accompanied by a later conversation from those who heard her complaints and discussions about the test -- from their varying perspectives of what was said, how it was said and the body language accompanying it. Perhaps we will hear this someday.

 

[Wrinkles]

I'm wondering...

If we took the substance of LE interviews on the day Kyron went missing, i.e. those with Terri who said she was here or there at a specific time

AND if we took the substance of where Terri actually was as proven by evidence found subsequent to the interviews

AND then if we took the results of the lie detector test/s which might have queried about the above matters

Do you think that we would see an overlap of lie, i.e. Terri's words, evidence disproving it, LDT proving lies.

Do you think that evidence proved lies -- do you think we would find out that lies about TH's whereabouts on the day Kyron went missing were backed up by her LDT results?

IF so...if you personally saw this (content of interview, content of pings, ATM/debits, content of video, results of LDT -- i.e. proof of lies), might you feel that other LDT test answers that indicated lying -- despite the evidence to prove the lies yet -- might actually be lies?

 

[TxLady2]

Hello Ami and Haeve,

Two great posts revealing some important insight! I'd like to share another anecdote to add to the insight of how NPDs (or those who certainly appear to be one, but who have not yet been diagnosed) respond to certain things...

Just real quickly and for insight into the NPD brain... The other day, my mother came to visit, invited for dinner. I shared with her about my husband -- who she adores because he dotes on her and would NEVER cross her -- explaining a flock of medical tests that he had just been through to make sure that he was not experiencing some of the toxic (potentially deadly) side effects of the particular heart medicine he is on. Towards the end of my explanation, she asked the name of the heart medicine (she did NOT know what it was.) I told her (I did not spell it out, though she is an ace at spelling and usually likes to know, there was no time to spell at the moment.)

Later, at the dinner table, my husband took his turn to speak (in a sense of shared convo at a dinner table), commencing to tell her about his tests (he didn't know that I had). She immediately tried to "alleviate" his need to speak, after all, if she can short circuit the speaking of others (as soon as they open their mouth), she can go on and on and on about "her." "Yes, I already know about those tests!" Heck, in my mom's mind my husband didn't need to speak -- my mom was already fully aware of the tests -- she expressed no concern about what he wanted to say, she knew what he was going to say, he could shut up so that she could speak (and repeat "about her").

Somewhat offended by the shutdown to my husband (and particularly the way it was done), I think I said something like, "Mom, you only know about those tests because I just told you." (kind of like saying, "he would like to share his experience and thoughts with you.") BTW, BIG MISTAKE, never challenge an NPD! I still have not learned how to communicate in a way to stay off the toes of an NPD! My mom responded back in an immediate biting shutdown to me -- one designed to impress my husband about how concerned she has been (yeah right), "NO, I HAVE BEEN STUDYING THIS!" I couldn't believe my ears. If I had stopped to challenge her veracity at that point (like, "So how do you spell the name of the drug he is on, and which tests did he need to determine if he is having side effects?") we would have had a melt down.

So back on topic... That which is important to the NPD is that they are the center of attention. It is all about "them." BUT...do not challenge their truthfulness, you just might find yourself, at the very least, shutdown in quick order OR the victim of their rage.

Now then... I have been thinking... That first LDT that Terri took was around the beginning of Kyron going missing. Then there was the 2nd, walked out on after initial questions and before hook up to the machine ...then the 3rd. The 2nd and 3rd tests were days after the first, the 3rd maybe being close to 2 weeks later? Just WHAT might have been known at that time, what questions might have been added to the LDT at that time to freak TH out?

Is it possible that the 2nd test started approaching questions that were more specific about that which TH had told LE about the day Kyron went missing? Perhaps, by the time the 2nd test was applied, they KNEW she was not at the locations she had said she was on that day. Maybe a question such as, "Is it possible that you went shopping at Albertsons on X street on the day Kyron went missing?" Or "Is it possible that you went to Sauvie Island instead of the gym on the day Kyron went missing?"

And about the 3rd test... Might another question or set of questions have been added due to what had been learned as of the date she went to take it? "Have you ever hired a landscaper to manage your lawn and garden?" or "We are aware that you had a landscaper working for you. Would you be surprised to learn that someone tried to hire this landscaper to kill their husband once?"

Oh how I would LOVE to hear the questions that were asked of TH, the answers to the questions AND the response of the LDT at the time of the test/answers. I would especially like to hear this accompanied by a later conversation from those who heard her complaints and discussions about the test -- from their varying perspectives of what was said, how it was said and the body language accompanying it. Perhaps we will hear this someday.

Generally, they ask rather simple questions, only related to the missing person.
"Do you know where Kyron is?"
"Do you know who took Kyron?"
"Did you have anything to do with Kyron's disappearance?"
They would not want to bring in anything regarding the landscaper, because their goal is to find out if she is lying about her own involvement.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Hi Day Dreamer. When I say Terri may have been setup for the crime, I'm thinking about someone who may have used Terri to get specifics of the school and how the school operates on special days with science fairs and talent shows and finding out from Terri her plans for the day. I consider it a possibility and throw it into the mix along with a few other theories.

I have wondered about this as well. And wondered, if that were the case, does Terri even yet suspect this person?

As for Terri sexting, that might be the actions of a lonely, unhappy, and desperate woman and nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance. It might be the actions of a woman who is lacking sexual stimulation in her marriage and finds some at a distance.

SBM

For all anyone knows, the Hormans may have had an open marriage agreement where sexting with another man would be considered acceptable.

It seems unlikely but so much about this case seems unlikely.

 

[Wrinkles]

Generally, they ask rather simple questions, only related to the missing person.
"Do you know where Kyron is?"
"Do you know who took Kyron?"
"Did you have anything to do with Kyron's disappearance?"
They would not want to bring in anything regarding the landscaper, because their goal is to find out if she is lying about her own involvement.

Hiya TxLady2,

I've never had experience with an LDT, i.e. precisely the step by steps on how it is approached/administered, the questions asked. Do you have a fairly good understanding of this? If so...I'm wondering if you think that they would have asked the same questions to all of the parents?

Also...I just had a look at AntiPolygraph.org -- I know nothing about the validity of the information on this site. They mention questions being "irrelevant, control and relevant." Do you think that the entire set of questions, including the latter 3 types, would have been asked of all of the parents? How long do you think it would take to administer a test in a case such as this, i.e. a child missing -- how many questions might be asked?

 

[Wrinkles]

--- snipped ---
They would not want to bring in anything regarding the landscaper, because their goal is to find out if she is lying about her own involvement.

Might they bring in a question about a landscaper as a type of "control" question when it really might have been a relevant question?

In other words... Mrs. H, we are going to ask a variety of questions, some of the questions we ask will seem unimportant to the reason you are here -- that is just all part of helping you with the test process. The object is just to relax and answer each question truthfully.

Do you live in a blue house?
Has Kyron been living in the blue house too?
Have you ever hired a maid at the blue house?

Does the blue house have 4 bedrooms?
Do you call one of those bedrooms Kyron's room?
Have you ever hired anyone to come in and carpet the blue house?

Does the blue house have a large yard with forest surrounding it?
Did Kyron sometimes play in the yard and the surrounding forest?
Have you ever hired a landscaper to maintain the lawn and its surrounding forest?

Does Kyron go to Skyline elementary school?
Did you take him to school on June 4th?
Do you know what happened to Kyron?

 

[eyes4crime]

The New England Journal of Medicine states that lie detector or polygraph tests record the changes in the autonomic nervous system, such as blood pressure, pulse, breathing patterns and perspiration, that occur when the test subject is lying.

In addition to 'drugs affecting the autonomic nervous system' one can add: psychological states such as anxiety and depression. Underlying disease states such as diabetes. And a gazillion other reasons one might fail, pass, or have inconclusive results.

Let's also mention that LE does not have to be honest - you can be told a 'pass' when you actually failed or a 'fail' upon passing or inconclusive with pass/fail. :frown:

I have to wonder why would anybody in their right mind would take one of these things? :waitasec: moo

 

[Wrinkles]

--- snipped ---
I have to wonder why would anybody in their right mind would take one of these things? :waitasec: moo

It seems that parents out of their minds with grief over the news of their missing child -- hoping to do anything that they can do to get LE on the right course to find their child -- are willing to do so for some reason.

After reading more about the LDT, I have to wonder what I would do if requested to take one in the event my child was missing. I'm not sure... I have a heart defect that makes the beating of my heart go ballistic simply at the shout of a voice, or a car pulling in front of me without warning, or the screech of brakes OR a sudden unexpected thump in another room... I can wake up in the middle of the night with my heart going stupid -- my body reacts with awful breathing and sometimes sweating... In addition, in post menopause, I can still start sweating at the drop of a hat...it can come with or without reason.

But...if I thought I had to try and clear a hurdle to get my missing child found, to get LE's eyes and actions going in the right direction, would I jump into the unknown, maybe questionable in sheer and unadulterated desperation to help LE clear me and get on with doing whatever they needed to find out who disappeared my kid? Oh yeah...yes...oh yes. I would be beating down LE's doors to give me another chance at the lie detector test if I had failed one, I would say, you just keep testing me -- you test me 50 times, I will answer a million questions to help you discern that I am telling you the truth -- YOU MUST help me find my child!

I would not only do the above, I would say "strip search me" (and I am modest), skin test me, DNA test me, test my home, my car, here's my check book and bank cards and visa cards, and here is my file cabinet, here is my computer (watch out, I hang out on WS AND I do medical research and check out that which is behind deaths -- I have to read autopsy reports), here is my cell phone. TAKE IT ALL, ask me anything you want, here is a list of all of my friends, interview them to see what they think of my motives and mentality... Do what you must and do it now and get on with finding my kid.

AND IF...they suspected me after that, I would be screaming on the station steps to get off of the red herring and find my kid, telling them I have turned myself inside out to get them on the right path... I'd be mortgaging everything I had, selling everything I had, researching to find top investigators that I could afford or would help me gratis...

Now that takes me to the next thought... When might we learn that Desiree, Tony and Kaine have hired the top investigators to assist LE in this matter?

 

[RubyRed]

It seems that parents out of their minds with grief over the news of their missing child -- hoping to do anything that they can do to get LE on the right course to find their child -- are willing to do so for some reason.

After reading more about the LDT, I have to wonder what I would do if requested to take one in the event my child was missing. I'm not sure... I have a heart defect that makes the beating of my heart go ballistic simply at the shout of a voice, or a car pulling in front of me without warning, or the screech of brakes OR a sudden unexpected thump in another room... I can wake up in the middle of the night with my heart going stupid -- my body reacts with awful breathing and sometimes sweating... In addition, in post menopause, I can still start sweating at the drop of a hat...it can come with or without reason.

But...if I thought I had to try and clear a hurdle to get my missing child found, to get LE's eyes and actions going in the right direction, would I jump into the unknown, maybe questionable in sheer and unadulterated desperation to help LE clear me and get on with doing whatever they needed to find out who disappeared my kid? Oh yeah...yes...oh yes. I would be beating down LE's doors to give me another chance at the lie detector test if I had failed one, I would say, you just keep testing me -- you test me 50 times, I will answer a million questions to help you discern that I am telling you the truth -- YOU MUST help me find my child!

I would not only do the above, I would say "strip search me" (and I am modest), skin test me, DNA test me, test my home, my car, here's my check book and bank cards and visa cards, and here is my file cabinet, here is my computer (watch out, I hang out on WS AND I do medical research and check out that which is behind deaths -- I have to read autopsy reports), here is my cell phone. TAKE IT ALL, ask me anything you want, here is a list of all of my friends, interview them to see what they think of my motives and mentality... Do what you must and do it now and get on with finding my kid.

AND IF...they suspected me after that, I would be screaming on the station steps to get off of the red herring and find my kid, telling them I have turned myself inside out to get them on the right path... I'd be mortgaging everything I had, selling everything I had, researching to find top investigators that I could afford or would help me gratis...

Now that takes me to the next thought... When might we learn that Desiree, Tony and Kaine have hired the top investigators to assist LE in this matter?

Excellent post, I totally agree.

 

[eyes4crime]

It seems that parents out of their minds with grief over the news of their missing child -- hoping to do anything that they can do to get LE on the right course to find their child -- are willing to do so for some reason.

After reading more about the LDT, I have to wonder what I would do if requested to take one in the event my child was missing. I'm not sure... I have a heart defect that makes the beating of my heart go ballistic simply at the shout of a voice, or a car pulling in front of me without warning, or the screech of brakes OR a sudden unexpected thump in another room... I can wake up in the middle of the night with my heart going stupid -- my body reacts with awful breathing and sometimes sweating... In addition, in post menopause, I can still start sweating at the drop of a hat...it can come with or without reason.

But...if I thought I had to try and clear a hurdle to get my missing child found, to get LE's eyes and actions going in the right direction, would I jump into the unknown, maybe questionable in sheer and unadulterated desperation to help LE clear me and get on with doing whatever they needed to find out who disappeared my kid? Oh yeah...yes...oh yes. I would be beating down LE's doors to give me another chance at the lie detector test if I had failed one, I would say, you just keep testing me -- you test me 50 times, I will answer a million questions to help you discern that I am telling you the truth -- YOU MUST help me find my child!

I would not only do the above, I would say "strip search me" (and I am modest), skin test me, DNA test me, test my home, my car, here's my check book and bank cards and visa cards, and here is my file cabinet, here is my computer (watch out, I hang out on WS AND I do medical research and check out that which is behind deaths -- I have to read autopsy reports), here is my cell phone. TAKE IT ALL, ask me anything you want, here is a list of all of my friends, interview them to see what they think of my motives and mentality... Do what you must and do it now and get on with finding my kid.

AND IF...they suspected me after that, I would be screaming on the station steps to get off of the red herring and find my kid, telling them I have turned myself inside out to get them on the right path... I'd be mortgaging everything I had, selling everything I had, researching to find top investigators that I could afford or would help me gratis...

Now that takes me to the next thought... When might we learn that Desiree, Tony and Kaine have hired the top investigators to assist LE in this matter?

Wrinkles - one thing is for sure, you certainly love your children and would go to extraordinary lengths to prove innocence. :blowkiss: That proof allows LE to move on and find the real perp. Certainly applaud your amazing tenacity in such a heartbreaking situation. I assure you that I also love my children with every ounce of my being, yet, have no idea what I would do if faced with such horrific circumstances. Pretty sure I would take a different route from yours.

I live in Illinois and have followed the Riley Fox case for 5 years. I'm horrified over the brutal rape and murder of 3yo Riley and perhaps, just as horrified, over what happened to Keven, Riley's father. Pretty sure that case has forever changed the way I would go about proving my innocence.

Please take good care of your very beautiful and loving heart! :heart:

 

[keeponsearching]

kaine said the first red flag was she failed the first test, which is suprising to me. I wouldn't start doubting my husband over that for one thing. 2. she was really vocal about it, I wonder what he means by that. I wish I could of heard what she was saying. I just don't get these polys, I have heard some people fail who are innocent or pass when guilty. I wonder when they will create something more accurate or if thats even possible.

 

[ami]

I'm wondering...

If we took the substance of LE interviews on the day Kyron went missing, i.e. those with Terri who said she was here or there at a specific time

AND if we took the substance of where Terri actually was as proven by evidence found subsequent to the interviews

AND then if we took the results of the lie detector test/s which might have queried about the above matters

Do you think that we would see an overlap of lie, i.e. Terri's words, evidence disproving it, LDT proving lies.

Do you think that evidence proved lies -- do you think we would find out that lies about TH's whereabouts on the day Kyron went missing were backed up by her LDT results?

IF so...if you personally saw this (content of interview, content of pings, ATM/debits, content of video, results of LDT -- i.e. proof of lies), might you feel that other LDT test answers that indicated lying -- despite the evidence to prove the lies yet -- might actually be lies?

Those are really good questions. I don't know what would constitute legal "proof" (short of actual physical evidence, and even then...) but yes I think if the same subject area was lied about and positively identified (e.g., through cell pings) and that same subject area spiked the LDT in a way that was considered dishonest, then certainly I'd believe she was lying about it.

Someone posted that LDTs are useful in more ways than just the actual results - someone's actions before and after, watching their face while questions are asked, their demeanor.. all things LE has to work with outside of LDTs to understand the inner workings of the person in front of them.

I do know from relatives' job interviews that generally they go over the questions with you before you are hooked up (anyone know if this is true in LE LDTs as well?) and then ask you if there are any questions you don't understand, or feel ambiguous to you, or that you would like to clarify, talk about, etc. I wonder if they did that with TH. I wonder if that's when she walked out of the second LDT session - before she was hooked up, but after she understood the scope of the questions.

 

[GrainneDhu]

It seems that parents out of their minds with grief over the news of their missing child -- hoping to do anything that they can do to get LE on the right course to find their child -- are willing to do so for some reason.

After reading more about the LDT, I have to wonder what I would do if requested to take one in the event my child was missing. I'm not sure... I have a heart defect that makes the beating of my heart go ballistic simply at the shout of a voice, or a car pulling in front of me without warning, or the screech of brakes OR a sudden unexpected thump in another room... I can wake up in the middle of the night with my heart going stupid -- my body reacts with awful breathing and sometimes sweating... In addition, in post menopause, I can still start sweating at the drop of a hat...it can come with or without reason.

But...if I thought I had to try and clear a hurdle to get my missing child found, to get LE's eyes and actions going in the right direction, would I jump into the unknown, maybe questionable in sheer and unadulterated desperation to help LE clear me and get on with doing whatever they needed to find out who disappeared my kid?

Wouldn't you want to find out first what the consequences of not taking the polygraph would be?

At the very least, I would want to ask a lawyer that I am paying (no conflicts of interest, thanks) what are the likely results if I fail the polygraph vs if I refuse to take one.

Here's how I see it:

The thing is, LE is very well aware that polygraphs are unreliable. A polygraph alone will not rule anyone out. They are, however, very good at getting potential suspects to talk about themselves.

So, realistically, what will happen if you fail a polygraph? You are certainly going to be looked at harder and the police have just collected that much more information to be used against you (that's their job, remember?). Every bit of information you give them during the (hours long) process of a polygraph constitutes a new lead. If you look hinky on the polygraph, you've just supplied LE with a whole bunch of new information to work on and distract them from searching for your child.

What will happen if you refuse to take the polygraph? The police will certainly see that as hinky which will increase their suspicions of you. But are they actually going to stop looking for your missing child? No. Can you even imagine the public relations nightmare if LE stopped looking for a missing child because one or all parents refused to take a polygraph? The best case result for LE would be that everyone in the chain of command for that decision suddenly decides to retire in order to spend more time with their families.

Oh yeah...yes...oh yes. I would be beating down LE's doors to give me another chance at the lie detector test if I had failed one, I would say, you just keep testing me -- you test me 50 times, I will answer a million questions to help you discern that I am telling you the truth -- YOU MUST help me find my child!

But that's a false dichotomy; their looking for your child is in no way contingent upon you taking a polygraph.

I would not only do the above, I would say "strip search me" (and I am modest), skin test me, DNA test me, test my home, my car, here's my check book and bank cards and visa cards, and here is my file cabinet, here is my computer (watch out, I hang out on WS AND I do medical research and check out that which is behind deaths -- I have to read autopsy reports), here is my cell phone.

You'd give up your cell phone if your child was missing? You wouldn't be afraid that you might miss your child's only chance to call you?

So far as DNA testing goes, it cannot help find your child. There are no such things as scanners widely distributed throughout public places collecting DNA samples to alert police if a missing child walks by one of them. DNA sampling may at some point be needed to ID your child's body. Or the samples you provide for testing may end up entered into a database where they could be matched up to some crime scene from the past or future. Why buy trouble?

TAKE IT ALL, ask me anything you want, here is a list of all of my friends, interview them to see what they think of my motives and mentality... Do what you must and do it now and get on with finding my kid.

And if one or more of the above think you put on a nice front but you always gave them a kind of creepy vibe, how will that help find your child?

AND IF...they suspected me after that, I would be screaming on the station steps to get off of the red herring and find my kid, telling them I have turned myself inside out to get them on the right path...

Like just about every other guilty party who is convinced that if they do a good enough acting job, the police will surely believe them.

I'd love to hear from LE at this point: has any suspect ever managed to talk you into taking them off the list of suspects?

I'd be mortgaging everything I had, selling everything I had, researching to find top investigators that I could afford or would help me gratis...

Better to save some money on defence lawyers in the long run by refusing the polygraph so you can spend it on a good private investigator.

Now that takes me to the next thought... When might we learn that Desiree, Tony and Kaine have hired the top investigators to assist LE in this matter?

Not for months more, I imagine. If ever.

In all the cases I've followed, I can't remember a set of parents that hired PIs in the first six months.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Someone posted that LDTs are useful in more ways than just the actual results - someone's actions before and after, watching their face while questions are asked, their demeanor.. all things LE has to work with outside of LDTs to understand the inner workings of the person in front of them.

SBM

It's not just body language and demeanour that LE looks at, it's the actual information you give in the pre-machine part of the process as well.

The commonest form of polygraph is where the interviewer asks a series of questions. Some are just filler questions, others are questions that are relevant to the investigation and the third category are control questions. Control questions are questions that the interviewer assumes everyone lies in response to.

The control question prep actually yields more investigative leads than the polygraph in many cases.

For example, one common control question is "have you ever lied in order to gain a benefit for yourself?" Well, duh. Almost everyone has! An honest person will reply during the test prep, well, uh, yeah, actually. So then the interviewer asks them to detail those past lies. They're friendly, they're helpful, they're just helping you pass the test.

Well, not just helping you pass the test. They're also gathering information about you and it's exactly the sort of information you would normally wish to hide from others. The interviewer is hoping the subject will forget the difference between a police interview and a confessional booth.

I do know from relatives' job interviews that generally they go over the questions with you before you are hooked up (anyone know if this is true in LE LDTs as well?) and then ask you if there are any questions you don't understand, or feel ambiguous to you, or that you would like to clarify, talk about, etc.

Same thing in LE exams. LE usually spends way more time on the test prep because that's where they're gathering all the interesting information.

I wonder if they did that with TH. I wonder if that's when she walked out of the second LDT session - before she was hooked up, but after she understood the scope of the questions.

It sounds like it to me because it has been widely reported that she showed up but walked out before they actually hooked her up.