Titanic tourist sub goes missing in Atlantic Ocean, June 2023 #2
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Some media reports have suggested the noises were heard at 30-minute intervals.
Deep-sea experts who spoke to the BBC say it is hard to determine what these noises might be without seeing the data, and Rear Adm John Mauger - who is leading the search - has also confirmed the source of them is unknown.
But it is possible they could be short, sharp, relatively high-frequency noises, made from within the sub by hitting a hard object against the end of it.
Frank Owen, from the Submarine Institute of Australia, says he is confident - based on the information available - the sounds are coming from inside the vessel.
"If there was a 30-minute interval, it's very unlikely to be anything but human related," he told the BBC.
[...]
But Mr Owen says the noises "smack of advice" coming from the fifth man inside - 77-year-old Paul-Henry Nargeolet, a former French navy diver and renowned explorer.
"He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces… on the hour and the half-hour, you bang like hell for three minutes," Mr Owen said.
Banging on the vessel's hull every half hour is standard naval protocol around the world for stricken vessels aiming to send word of their location to rescuers, Mr Owen told LBC News.
The decision to relocate the search indicates authorities are thinking similarly.
But in previous maritime searches - like those for missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 in 2014, and the Russian submarine Kursk in 2000 - underwater noises were heard too, and yielded no results.
And Rear Adm Mauger has said there are a lot of metal objects at the Titanic site that could have been causing the noises.
The other ray of hope is that these sounds were picked up by the sonar buoys - listening devices dropped from aircraft or ships - at all, Mr Owen says.
The Titanic lies 12,500ft (3,800m) beneath the ocean surface, where the buoys sit.
All forms of electromagnetic radiation, including radio and radar, are mostly useless underwater, but sound can travel fast over great distances.
It is possible that noises from deep ocean layers could get through to the sonar buoys, Mr Owen says, but it is more likely that the sounds are coming from the same ocean layer.
"It is very difficult to hear noise below the [top] layer because the sound gets refracted by this drop in temperature.
"But when it's in that isothermal layer... between the surface and 180m... the sound behaves really quite straight."
Mr Owen says if the sounds are indeed coming from the sub, rescuers should be able to
locate it pretty quickly.
"[They can] lay a pattern of buoys around that area, so they can get cross-bearings."
"The sonar buoys' receiver is able to plot that sort of information really very quickly... it would take a very short time to find."
Experts say that if one sonar buoy has picked up the sounds, they could locate them to about 1-2km (0.6-1.2 miles). And if more have picked them up, it could be possible to narrow the search area down to 100m.
However, the underwater vehicles which have been sent to find the origin of the noise have so far not found anything, the Coast Guard said at a news conference on Wednesday.
There are two remotely-operated vehicles (ROVs) currently searching and several more were expected by Thursday morning, the Coast Guard said.
Deep-sea experts who spoke to the BBC say it is hard to determine what these noises might be without seeing the data, and Rear Adm John Mauger - who is leading the search - has also confirmed the source of them is unknown.
But it is possible they could be short, sharp, relatively high-frequency noises, made from within the sub by hitting a hard object against the end of it.
Frank Owen, from the Submarine Institute of Australia, says he is confident - based on the information available - the sounds are coming from inside the vessel.
"If there was a 30-minute interval, it's very unlikely to be anything but human related," he told the BBC.
[...]
But Mr Owen says the noises "smack of advice" coming from the fifth man inside - 77-year-old Paul-Henry Nargeolet, a former French navy diver and renowned explorer.
"He would know the protocol for trying to alert searching forces… on the hour and the half-hour, you bang like hell for three minutes," Mr Owen said.
Banging on the vessel's hull every half hour is standard naval protocol around the world for stricken vessels aiming to send word of their location to rescuers, Mr Owen told LBC News.
The decision to relocate the search indicates authorities are thinking similarly.
But in previous maritime searches - like those for missing Malaysian Airlines flight MH370 in 2014, and the Russian submarine Kursk in 2000 - underwater noises were heard too, and yielded no results.
And Rear Adm Mauger has said there are a lot of metal objects at the Titanic site that could have been causing the noises.
The other ray of hope is that these sounds were picked up by the sonar buoys - listening devices dropped from aircraft or ships - at all, Mr Owen says.
The Titanic lies 12,500ft (3,800m) beneath the ocean surface, where the buoys sit.
All forms of electromagnetic radiation, including radio and radar, are mostly useless underwater, but sound can travel fast over great distances.
It is possible that noises from deep ocean layers could get through to the sonar buoys, Mr Owen says, but it is more likely that the sounds are coming from the same ocean layer.
"It is very difficult to hear noise below the [top] layer because the sound gets refracted by this drop in temperature.
"But when it's in that isothermal layer... between the surface and 180m... the sound behaves really quite straight."
Mr Owen says if the sounds are indeed coming from the sub, rescuers should be able to
locate it pretty quickly.
"[They can] lay a pattern of buoys around that area, so they can get cross-bearings."
"The sonar buoys' receiver is able to plot that sort of information really very quickly... it would take a very short time to find."
Experts say that if one sonar buoy has picked up the sounds, they could locate them to about 1-2km (0.6-1.2 miles). And if more have picked them up, it could be possible to narrow the search area down to 100m.
However, the underwater vehicles which have been sent to find the origin of the noise have so far not found anything, the Coast Guard said at a news conference on Wednesday.
There are two remotely-operated vehicles (ROVs) currently searching and several more were expected by Thursday morning, the Coast Guard said.
Titanic sub: What happens next after sounds detected in search
With oxygen supplies dwindling - under 24 hours' worth remains - the next few hours are critical.
www.bbc.co.uk
citizen_sleuth
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It truly is astounding that Titan was not tested or inspected by anyone outside of the company given the extreme and unprecedented conditions it (and its passengers, aka "mission specialists") would be subjected to.
Although OceanGate claimed in a court filing that the University of Washington Applied Physics Laboratory was involved in the design, implementation, and testing of the submersible, a representative of the university said that UW-APL only worked on "shallow water implementation" and did not work on the design or testing of the vessel.
The Marine Testing Society warned OceanGate that their cavalier attitude toward testing was extremely dangerous, and yet OceanGate seemingly ignored their warnings, with the CEO claiming that because the submersible was "experimental" it could not/should not be subjected to outside testing.
Personally, I find the "experimental" argument to be not just appalling, but illogical. If a drug company develops a brand new drug, it doesn't go straight from the lab to patients -- it has to go through multiple rounds of both internal and external tests before it is even approved for clinical trials. So the argument that an "experimental" submersible is suited to carry paying passengers 12,000 feet under the surface of the ocean without undergoing external safety testing just because it is a new design makes no sense. If anything, the fact that it is a new design makes rigorous internal and external testing even more critical.
MOO but I hope that in the future US legislators will mandate that companies based in the US which develop and operate these kinds of vessels for paid tours (IMO this was a paid tour, not a 'scientific' mission as OceanGate passed it off as) undergo extensive external testing throughout the design, engineering, and implementation phases.
Although OceanGate claimed in a court filing that the University of Washington Applied Physics Laboratory was involved in the design, implementation, and testing of the submersible, a representative of the university said that UW-APL only worked on "shallow water implementation" and did not work on the design or testing of the vessel.
The Marine Testing Society warned OceanGate that their cavalier attitude toward testing was extremely dangerous, and yet OceanGate seemingly ignored their warnings, with the CEO claiming that because the submersible was "experimental" it could not/should not be subjected to outside testing.
Personally, I find the "experimental" argument to be not just appalling, but illogical. If a drug company develops a brand new drug, it doesn't go straight from the lab to patients -- it has to go through multiple rounds of both internal and external tests before it is even approved for clinical trials. So the argument that an "experimental" submersible is suited to carry paying passengers 12,000 feet under the surface of the ocean without undergoing external safety testing just because it is a new design makes no sense. If anything, the fact that it is a new design makes rigorous internal and external testing even more critical.
MOO but I hope that in the future US legislators will mandate that companies based in the US which develop and operate these kinds of vessels for paid tours (IMO this was a paid tour, not a 'scientific' mission as OceanGate passed it off as) undergo extensive external testing throughout the design, engineering, and implementation phases.
Sal Mercogliano, a former merchant mariner, and maritime historian at Campbell University, tells New York Magazine that Oceangate wasn’t “breaking the laws, but they’re operating in a very gray area” .
He told New York’s Clio Chang:
Read more here.
www.theguardian.com
He told New York’s Clio Chang:
And so, the company wasn’t required to undergo inspections to follow rules that apply to submersibles being operated in US waters.
Read more here.
More noises heard in search area, says US Coast Guard, amid huge effort to bring crew home – as it happened
Rescue team says every noise being tracked and analysed; ‘every possible effort’ being made to bring missing crew home, says Polar Prince co-owner
Jenesaisquoi
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Probably a silly question, but could the submersible have bobbed up and got caught under an iceberg?
LaineyJ
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Been reading every page of these threads and with each new page I feel like I’m watching history happen.
I can’t word that better but yeah. As someone noted earlier, people (likely) dying to go see a boat where people died.
This is horrific.
I can’t word that better but yeah. As someone noted earlier, people (likely) dying to go see a boat where people died.
This is horrific.
Thank you for sharing the article. I believe this is the very base where the Blue Angels fly. We were there last week. The museum is amazing.Actually the US Navy is taught Morse Code. See highlighted section in the link below...
Morse code: A staple in the Navy IW toolkit
The cryptologic technician (collection) (CTR) student cohort in the first revised Basic Manual Morse Trainer (BMMT) course wrapped up, Jan. 28, at the Center for Information Dominance (CID) Unit Corry Station.www.dvidshub.net
IIRC, it was reported by MSM that the spouse of Stockton Rush is the director of communications for OceanGate. I assume she is on the mothership right now, and my heart goes out to her as this tragedy unfolds.
I doubt that bankruptcy or lawsuits, etc. are of any concern to her right now. His life and the lives of the other Titan 5 are all that matter to their loved ones.
The New York Times is reporting that she is a descendant of two passengers who died with the sinking of the Titanic. I think they were her great-great-grandparents.
www.nytimes.com
Wendy Rush, the wife of Stockton Rush, the OceanGate chief executive who was piloting the submersible that disappeared Sunday during a dive to the Titanic wreckage, is a descendant of two first-class passengers who died when the ocean liner sank in 1912, archival records show.
Edited to correct link to NY Times article
I doubt that bankruptcy or lawsuits, etc. are of any concern to her right now. His life and the lives of the other Titan 5 are all that matter to their loved ones.
The New York Times is reporting that she is a descendant of two passengers who died with the sinking of the Titanic. I think they were her great-great-grandparents.
Submersible Pilot’s Spouse Is Descended From a Famous Titanic Couple (Published 2023)
Wendy Rush is a great-great-granddaughter of the retailing magnate Isidor Straus and his wife, Ida, two of the wealthiest people to die aboard the ocean liner.
Wendy Rush, the wife of Stockton Rush, the OceanGate chief executive who was piloting the submersible that disappeared Sunday during a dive to the Titanic wreckage, is a descendant of two first-class passengers who died when the ocean liner sank in 1912, archival records show.
Edited to correct link to NY Times article
Last edited:
citizen_sleuth
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Interestingly, the fact that the Titan was operating in international waters isn't the most relevant part, IMO. The Titanic wreckage is actually subject to a treaty between the US & UK, which requires vessels flying the flag of either nation (US or UK) visiting the wreck obtain a license, but since the Titan does not fly the flag of any country, it is not bound by the license requirements.Sal Mercogliano, a former merchant mariner, and maritime historian at Campbell University, tells New York Magazine that Oceangate wasn’t “breaking the laws, but they’re operating in a very gray area” .
He told New York’s Clio Chang:
And so, the company wasn’t required to undergo inspections to follow rules that apply to submersibles being operated in US waters.
Read more here.
More noises heard in search area, says US Coast Guard, amid huge effort to bring crew home – as it happened
Rescue team says every noise being tracked and analysed; ‘every possible effort’ being made to bring missing crew home, says Polar Prince co-owner
BeachSky
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Not used to purchase a beacon !?
Or a back up plan A, B, C …beyond the floaties IMO
Puzzles8
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We can still hope and pray the amount of onboard Oxygen was underestimated. As well, officials point out there are more factors involved in their survival, more than mere Oxygen.
Praying for a Miracle at this point.
JMO
crhedBngr
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Lexiintoronto
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IIRC, it was reported by MSM that the spouse of Stockton Rush is the director of communications for OceanGate. I assume she is on the mothership right now, and my heart goes out to her as this tragedy unfolds.
I doubt that bankruptcy or lawsuits, etc. are of any concern to her right now. His life and the lives of the other Titan 5 are all that matter to their loved ones.
The New York Times is reporting that she is a descendant of two passengers who died with the sinking of the Titanic. I think they were her great-great-grandparents.
Submersible Pilot’s Spouse Is Descended From a Famous Titanic Couple (Published 2023)
Wendy Rush is a great-great-granddaughter of the retailing magnate Isidor Straus and his wife, Ida, two of the wealthiest people to die aboard the ocean liner.
Wendy Rush, the wife of Stockton Rush, the OceanGate chief executive who was piloting the submersible that disappeared Sunday during a dive to the Titanic wreckage, is a descendant of two first-class passengers who died when the ocean liner sank in 1912, archival records show.
Edited to correct link to NY TImes article
Can you imagine? From your link:
“Ms. Rush’s ancestors on the Titanic are perhaps best known for their tragic love story. Survivors of the disaster recalled seeing Isidor Straus refuse a seat on a lifeboat when women and children were still waiting to flee the sinking liner. Ida Straus, his wife of four decades, declared that she would not leave her husband, and the two were seen standing arm in arm on the Titanic’s deck as the ship went down.”
citizen_sleuth
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Rolypolyoly
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I think the answer to your question will change tomorrow. Right now they have to give it everything, but tomorrow, after the air runs out (supposing that the vessel is still intact, which I will very much hope it is not and has not been this whole time once we get to that point) things change. Once the air deadline has passed, they will have to decide if they continue searching for remains that may not exist anymore, or pack up the resources and leave the passengers to rest in the ocean.
It's a hard decision, and I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make it, but if I did I wouldn't keep it going for more than a day or two
mickey2942
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Interesting, you would think that the company had some sort of plan of what to do in a "worse case scenario". And it appears to me, that there is no plan...
Just rely on United States and other countries to pony up the cash and resources for an underwater rescue. Great plan. Not.
Just rely on United States and other countries to pony up the cash and resources for an underwater rescue. Great plan. Not.
Glimma0927
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So far behind, so sorry if this analogy was already suggested. If you're musically inclined, I would think of it as a triplet, three quarter notes, and another triplet. Each strike of the hull would result in an identical unsustained note, but the space between each of those identical note can vary to create the dashes and dots.
Warwick1991
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As far as the hatch design is concerned, today's Washington Post has an article about the Titan. An excerpt from the article (paywalled for some) notes "Maximilian Cremer, director of the ocean technology group at the University of Hawaii Marine Center, told The Post that the Titan’s hatch, which is bolted from the outside, does not meet standards. “We are required by the American Bureau of Shipping, by our regulatory oversight, to have a tower, a structure you can climb out of the command sphere in case of emergency at sea surface,” Cremer said. “Plus we can and are required to open under our own power, human power, to be able to open the main hatch.”
See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/21/titanic-sub-missing-search-update/
See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/21/titanic-sub-missing-search-update/
Bet he's one grateful person now !!!
Missing Titan sub battery suddenly DRAINED during 2022 Titanic trip
A YouTuber who once traveled to the Titanic on the missing Titan sub shared how the vehicle's batteries suddenly drained during the expedition, forcing it to end early.www.dailymail.co.uk
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