TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #1

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December - Would you add to your list of things to ask the police how they determined time of death? Was it the degree of rigor on the body? Maybe it was the bruising and the amount of time it takes bruises of that severity to appear?
 
This hasn't been mentioned yet, and I spent quite awhile searching for information because the name was misspelled in an article that mentioned Kathy.

13-year-old Glenda Sirmans was abducted from Farragut, TN, in Knox County on the same day Kathy disappeared. She was abducted while walking to a friend's house to work on a school project. Her body was found two weeks later eight miles away on Lakeland Road in Loudon County. She was nude, her throat slashed, and there was another cut to her throat. Her poor body had been badly mutilated by dogs, and in fact, it was finally discovered when a dog brought home a shoe with a foot still inside. :( Authorities believe Glenda died the same day she was abducted, November 29, 1969, and the murder remains unsolved.

This brings back the issue of timing, and whether Kathy was abducted during the day or at night. The area where Glenda's body was found is about 172 miles from the skating rink. Driving 70-75 mph on I-40 (speed limits weren't reduced until 1973), the trip is less than three hours. I haven't read where investigators considered the two murders were related, but one has to wonder. But again, it hinges on the timing of Kathy's disappearance. If not related, it's quite a coincidence.

Gir's Body, Throat Cut, Discovered - Dec 14, 1969

Find Body of Missing Girl - Dec 15, 1969

Searchers Find Body of Slain Tennessee Girl - Dec 15, 1969

Dogs Attract Searchers to Body of 13-year-old girl - Dec 15, 1969
 
Interesting bessie. In case you got pulled into the article next to Glenda's, they found the abducted red headed 5 yr girl alive :)
 
“She started out and then she came over and kissed me and said, ‘Thank you mother. Thank you for the dollar.’ And then, oh Lord, then she went out the door.”
quoted from the Scene

This is my cousin Nora. Nora died of cancer.

All my life, I heard people talk about Kathy with such pain. Her murder slayed my family.

I hate murderers. They all need to die. They destroy more than their victims. They ruin the lives of the victim's family and friends because it takes something from them more than a natural death. I can't explain it, but I know many people here will understand because you've experienced it firsthand.

I am sorry I have fallen down on the job lately. I have been very sick this week. And then there were some other issues. But, part of this is this breaks my heart so bad.

I remember how much Kathy's murder ruined people in my family. The people who went on, they had a hard time when they thought of it. My father was a combat veteran. But, seeing grown men killed in war is different than seeing what was done to Kathy. No one enjoyed those men's deaths. No one tied them up and gleefully tortured them. They just shot them dead which is sad, but it's not the same. And those men had guns. Kathy had a pair of white leather roller skates.

My father was a very stoic and brave person. He saw Kathy and he talked to people about what had been done to her. One thing not showing up in the Scene article (probably because it didn't photograph very well, I'm not criticizing them) is Kathy had been beaten. My father always said "by someone with big fists". I don't know how severe this beating was, but my friend who was murdered was basically beaten to death. So, I wonder if the beating Kathy endured was enough to have put her in the hospital (had she been rescued). He also sometimes mentioned that Kathy's legs had to be broken to fit her in her coffin. Which.. OMG! How? Why?

My niece looks like Kathy. I didn't really know that. No one ever said anything. But, I think about my niece.. and Kathy... Kathy, if she had taken the ride with that one lady's grandfather, would be in her 60s now. Maybe other people in my family would still be alive because they wouldn't be eaten up with the horror of losing Kathy. I mean Nora, Linda, and Faye mostly. But, then also Kelly and Donna. I MISS these people so badly.

I'm sorry I haven't called the police yet and cleared this up some of our questions. However, I think people here have sleuthed up some important facts. Maybe the police do not know some of these things. They are smart, I think, but there are many cold case murders they must solve as well as current murders. I'm working on a list of questions and facts for the police. I don't know if they would read out thread, so I am getting together some of the best things people have sleuthed up.

I wish I had been more help during this time. I am grieving pretty heavily right now though. But, I will do my best to help.

You don't know how I appreciate everyone who has helped me on this thread. I can't even tell you how much it means to me. Most people find Kathy's death too horrible to think about and don't want to talk about. And some people in my family were AFRAID to talk about it. I don't know why or what happened to make them this way, but they said it was dangerous to talk about and they were serious. I think maybe it's not dangerous, finally. Is someone dead or in prison who frightened them? I don't know.

Thank you for reading. Thank you so, so much. The people who have responded and sleuthed, you are so wonderful to have done this. I appreciate it ... I think of what you have done and makes me cry. No one has ever helped me this much.

December
 
Glenda Sirmans of Knoxville, age 13. She was found nude. Her clothes were "scattered" (I wonder if they had originally been wadded up beside her, but afterwards carried here and there by animals). She had a 20-minute walk (the Scene thinks it'd taken Kathy 20 minutes to make her walk). She was "shy" and "quiet". Just like Kathy.

Glenda was murdered a different way, but so many things are like Kathy.

And FRANKLIN FLOYD could have been in Knoxville around this time. He also went to Memphis later. If you're in Knoxville, Tennessee and you want to go to Memphis, you're going to get on I-40 and that is going to take you right through Nashville.

ETA
Well, you could also go Hwy 70. Which will also take you right through Nashville.
 
TrixieBel said:
Interesting bessie. In case you got pulled into the article next to Glenda's, they found the abducted red headed 5 yr girl alive :)
Click to expand...

Is this the little girl the FBI found in Atlanta?

The thing I remember the most about her abduction (which thank God she was found unharmed and given to her family) is she said her kidnapper had

a car bigger than her daddy's

It doesn't say what kind of car her daddy had. But, I am going to assume a typical car of the day. So, what would be significantly bigger?
 
Bessie, thank you for the articles about Glenda Marie Sirmans. Do we know if her murder is a cold case?

It sounds very much like Kathy's case. Poor Glenda was in such bad condition she might have been tied up at one point, no one could tell. That breaks my heart for her.

I think it is possible Glenda continue to struggle in such a way the murder cut her throat instead of what he usually did. (Not blaming Glenda, I'm actually praising her for trying as best she could to get free. The murderer had no right to touch her, ever.) This may be why a few things do not match with Kathy.. they think Glenda's murder was quicker, for example.
 
December...:hug: I'm sorry this is so painful for you. Take care of yourself, and do what you can in your own time.
 
December said:
Bessie, thank you for the articles about Glenda Marie Sirmans. Do we know if her murder is a cold case?

It sounds very much like Kathy's case. Poor Glenda was in such bad condition she might have been tied up at one point, no one could tell. That breaks my heart for her.

I think it is possible Glenda continue to struggle in such a way the murder cut her throat instead of what he usually did. (Not blaming Glenda, I'm actually praising her for trying as best she could to get free. The murderer had no right to touch her, ever.) This may be why a few things do not match with Kathy.. they think Glenda's murder was quicker, for example.
Click to expand...
I wasn't able to confirm one way or the other. All I found was a post on topix by someone who said it was unsolved.
 
bessie said:
This hasn't been mentioned yet, and I spent quite awhile searching for information because the name was misspelled in an article that mentioned Kathy.

13-year-old Glenda Sirmans was abducted from Farragut, TN, in Knox County on the same day Kathy disappeared. She was abducted while walking to a friend's house to work on a school project. Her body was found two weeks later eight miles away on Lakeland Road in Loudon County. She was nude, her throat slashed, and there was another cut to her throat. Her poor body had been badly mutilated by dogs, and in fact, it was finally discovered when a dog brought home a shoe with a foot still inside. :( Authorities believe Glenda died the same day she was abducted, November 29, 1969, and the murder remains unsolved.

This brings back the issue of timing, and whether Kathy was abducted during the day or at night. The area where Glenda's body was found is about 172 miles from the skating rink. Driving 70-75 mph on I-40 (speed limits weren't reduced until 1973), the trip is less than three hours. I haven't read where investigators considered the two murders were related, but one has to wonder. But again, it hinges on the timing of Kathy's disappearance. If not related, it's quite a coincidence.

Gir's Body, Throat Cut, Discovered - Dec 14, 1969

Find Body of Missing Girl - Dec 15, 1969

Searchers Find Body of Slain Tennessee Girl - Dec 15, 1969

Dogs Attract Searchers to Body of 13-year-old girl - Dec 15, 1969
Click to expand...

Thank you for figuring out the trip time for the murderer to potentially travel from Knoxville to Nashville.

I think Glenda's murder went wrong for the murderer (if it is the same individual). They killed her quicker than they meant to. So, they didn't get what they wanted from the murder. :cry:

But, maybe they expected Glenda to be found quicker than she was, so they went off to a different part of the state and found someone else.

I have also wondered if maybe something went wrong and Kathy totally missed her friends at the rink and KK. So, maybe she did everything by herself. And no one really noticed her because she was shy and quiet and sort of blended in... waht if she got abducted on her way home? (speculation based on nothing but times)

ETA:
They probably would be driving more like 80-90. People used to do that all of the time if they had a car that could handle it (and most people did).
 
December said:
Is this the little girl the FBI found in Atlanta?

The thing I remember the most about her abduction (which thank God she was found unharmed and given to her family) is she said her kidnapper had

a car bigger than her daddy's

It doesn't say what kind of car her daddy had. But, I am going to assume a typical car of the day. So, what would be significantly bigger?
Click to expand...
Yes, that would be Kristie Salter(?). Next to one of the articles I linked about GS is an article about Kristie. I think her abductor got scared because so many witnesses had seen him, so he let her go. The fact that she was alive two days after she was kidnapped makes me think the motive in that crime was different. JMO.
 
bessie said:
I wasn't able to confirm one way or the other. All I found was a post on topix by someone who said it was unsolved.
Click to expand...

That's so sad. I don't think enough clues were left on Glenda to give the police much to use to solve the crime. They probably rounded up the usual suspects, but if none of them did or or knew anything then...
 
bessie said:
December...:hug: I'm sorry this is so painful for you. Take care of yourself, and do what you can in your own time.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much, Bessie.

I am lucky in that my part of the family survived better than the people closer to Kathy. There are several reasons for that, but mostly it comes down to my father protected us. And my father was strong for us.

But, Nora and Linda both got cancer and died. Faye became very sick and died. None of these people were old. Then I had a long conversation with Donna and she tells me about Kelly dying and then the next thing I know Donna dies as well. I don't know what happened.

Nora's uncles tried their best to help her. My father went to Nashville many times to try to help Nora. But, there was only so much they could do. Kathy was gone.

I did hear a really happy story about Nora once. She and my uncle used to go to dance clubs together (before she had kids). They were really good dancers which is why they danced together. My aunt didn't really dance much. Nora had this really cute outfit she wore sometimes when they danced. This would be in the 50s, I guess.

Then, much later, Nora did get remarried and moved to a different neighborhood.

ETA:
Donna's son actually is in the comments of the Scene article. He identifies himself as her son and uses his real name.
 
December said:
That's so sad. I don't think enough clues were left on Glenda to give the police much to use to solve the crime. They probably rounded up the usual suspects, but if none of them did or or knew anything then...
Click to expand...
You're right. One article did say an autopsy would be performed, but I think any evidence would have been degraded by then. I just wonder if the investigators considered the crimes might be linked. Or did the Nashville detectives have tunnel vision about Adcox so they dismissed the idea too quickly?
 
bessie said:
Yes, that would be Kristie Salter(?). Next to one of the articles I linked about GS is an article about Kristie. I think her abductor got scared because so many witnesses had seen him, so he let her go. The fact that she was alive two days after she was kidnapped makes me think the motive in that crime was different. JMO.
Click to expand...

I thought the same thing.

But, I also thought maybe he feared she was being tracked by dogs and whatever other methods the FBI would have in 1969. So, he never stopped moving with her until he finally let her go.

Maybe the reason she lived so much longer is because he never had any special alone time with her. They were always driving in a car and he was trying to elude LE.

But, it could just be a coincidence she was abducted the same time. Someone may have wanted a little girl to raise and just picked a time when Nashville was on high alert for anyone trying to abduct a child.

MOO and speculation
 
bessie said:
You're right. One article did say an autopsy would be performed, but I think any evidence would have been degraded by then. I just wonder if the investigators considered the crimes might be linked. Or did the Nashville detectives have tunnel vision about Adcox so they dismissed the idea too quickly?
Click to expand...

That could be possible with them having the description of Kathy's murder from Adcox via the "known felon".

One thing they did know is there is no way Adcox had anything to do with Glenda since surely they had a good idea exactly where he'd been that day. From what I understand, he would have been driving the RD bus and hanging around the rink/that general part of Nashville.

I do believe none other than Franklin Floyd was lurking around and I believe it's possible he might have killed both of these little girls. He may have enlisted Adcox's help in Nashville to quickly find a girl and this may be why Adcox knew as much as he did about what happened to Kathy. (MOO, wild speculation, etc. maybe murderer Floyd had nothing to do with Glenda or Kathy)

I really believe this is a multiple perp crime. I don't think Glenda necessarily was. But, I wonder when the murderers went on the move to Nashville if they had to enlist some of the local criminals/child molesters/other horrible people to quickly find a girl and a location for what they wanted to do. This is horrible to think about, but murder is the worst thing.. absolutely the worst.
 
There's a blog post from 2006 at this link where the writer is looking for information into Kathy's and Glenda's murders. So that's two references to GS's murder being unsolved.

http://coldcasewoman.blogspot.com/
 
kwash said:
The Scene article describes the wounds on her neck as "several almond shaped cuts". I think it's possible these could have been caused by her own fingernails if she clawed at/tried to loosen something around her neck. There is no mention that these wounds are deep and the almond shape would be consistent with a cut opened by a fingernail. Also - I don't see mention of another neck wound in the article (seems people here think there was one?), but there is mention of a puncture wound to her chest. Again, no mention of how big/deep this is, but it is possible that it was small and could have been cause by pretty much anything, e.g. a stick, belt buckle, etc.
Click to expand...

I reread the Scene article. I, for some reason, thought she had deeper wounds on her neck. I don't know where I read that. I'm sorry for the confusion. I guess I made a mistake

She may have, indeed, clawed at her neck trying to loosen that thing. However, she was found with her hands bound behind her. And I will say, it seemed to people who saw her body she had been in the position she was found in (hands bound, legs in weird positions, things like that) for a while. This information is not in the articles, I'm sorry. This is just family information. So, she may have clawed her neck briefly, but I don't know.. her hands were bound and it seems like they'd do that early on, but maybe not. IDK.

I though maybe someone had a knife and they used it to terrorize her more than to cut her. Some of these knives have points that might leave weirdly shaped cuts if someone did not continue with the cutting motion, but instead used the knife to scare Kathy. (specualtion) It would be more of a western style knife, not a knife from the east (west-U.S., Europe/east-Japan) probably. That is wild speculation on my part just looking at photos and watching shows where they demonstrate these weapons. Oh, and this would be a knife like perhaps the military would use rather than just a knife from someone's kitchen. (speculation)
 
TrixieBel said:
I presume you guys saw this on the Topix site. 4/23/2013
'I was a young girl of 12 in Concord, TN before it became Farragut, when Glenda Sirmans, also 12 was murdered. Her killer was never known. I still have newspaper clippings from the News Sentinel when it happened. <modsnip>
Click to expand...

Heck no I did not see that. Wonderful find!

I just this day heard about Glenda. And I want her murder solved! I agree with that topix poster, that individual should not get away with it! I understand why someone would be scared to turn in a murderer (e.g., they are a murderer, they have no regard for human life, they might kill the person who turned them in just out of spite).

I am grateful you found that. Who knows, it might be related to Kathy or it might not. If we can sleuth out info to solve them both, that would be a great and wonderful thing.
 
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