TN - Shooting at private Christian Covenant School, Nashville, suspect dead, multiple victims, 27 Mar 2023 #2

[Sundog]

Nashville police to release manifesto in Christian school shooting massacre

Nashville police confirmed they will release a manifesto they recovered from the car of Covenant School shooter and former student Audrey Elizabeth Hale.

www.foxnews.com

Manifesto will be released....

Finally . . .


edited by me to include post I am responding to

 

[Imvp2]

Sure, if they want to, that is.
But sadly they won’t find the real answer to “why”. They will be reading non-rational musings from a mentally ill person. IMHO I rely on experts to interpret their ramblings and summarize any info that is actually helpful. We can’t logically understand a person who is not thinking logically.

How do you know these writings are "non- rational musing" ? I think the victims' families and as well as we the people with children attending schools need to know.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Well then... and here I was ready to move on in hopes we'd eventually, one day, maybe, know why she did what she did.
I guess that day may be coming sooner rather than later.
I sure hope so.

I think undestanding is critical to a solution.

I was ready to unwatch the thread and move on, too. My reason was that I feared the discussion was becoming contentious, and perhaps I was part of the fuel.

Although I’m unsure we will gain understanding from the writings, I’d like to stick around here in support of my fellow WS’ers who feel there is value to the release.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I was ready to unwatch the thread and move on, too. My reason was that I feared the discussion was becoming contentious, and perhaps I was part of the fuel.

Although I’m unsure we will gain understanding from the writings, I’d like to stick around here in support of my fellow WS’ers who feel there is value to the release.

Same, all of the above.
I really do hope there is (or will be) some good to come from releasing her writings.

 

[waldojabba]

To be fair and accurate, the link you provided does not say "reading manifestos of prior shooters" as you've included.

The article does state quite clearly that some of them have studied past mass shooters, but does not indicate the exact means by which that's done. Here's what it actually says:

"The data show that many individuals who engage in mass shootings study past mass shooters — one in five (21.6%) studied other mass shooters, and many are radicalized online. The researchers recommended media literacy education as a means of helping people critically consume information and counter extremist propaganda that facilitates violence."

Those bulleted points in context:

The research team cautioned that the qualitative data, from five interviews, did not lend themselves to generalization, because each individual’s story is unique. There was no single profile of a person who engaged in a mass shooting, but the interviewed mass shooters shared the following traits:

• Early childhood trauma and exposure to violence.
• An identifiable grievance or crisis point.
• Validation of beliefs — finding inspiration in past shootings by others.
• The means to carry out an attack.

What that link has to say about manifestos:

Warning Signs — Leakage​

Nearly half of individuals who engaged in mass shootings (48%) leaked their plans in advance to others, including family members, friends, and colleagues, as well as strangers and law enforcement officers. Legacy tokens, such as manifestos, were left behind by 23.4% of those who committed mass shootings.

It's an interesting read, thanks for sharing the link.

Thanks for the clarification @Ontario Mom
The important take aways for me from the above linked study:
1. Education - teaching people to think critically as part of our school curriculum's will encourage and develop the ability to process information accurately. We all are bombarded with so much information everyday that is is helpful to be able to process it all in a way that is intellectually accurate IMO
"The researchers recommended media literacy education as a means of helping people critically consume information and counter extremist propaganda that facilitates violence."
2."About 70% of individuals who perpetrated mass shooting knew at least some of their victims. In particular, K-12 school and workplace shooters were “insiders” — current or former students and employees. That finding has implications for physical security measures and the use of active shooter drills." SO IMO we have familiarity playing a role - which seems to be accurate in this mass shooting. Audrey attended school there for one year and there were five yearbooks from that school found at the house in the police search. Did someone else from her household attend that school also or work there?
3".Of the 172 individuals who engaged in public mass shootings covered in the database, 97.7% were male. Ages ranged from 11 to 70, with a mean age of 34.1. Those shooting were 52.3% White, 20.9% Black, 8.1% Latino, 6.4% Asian, 4.2% Middle Eastern, and 1.8% Native American." BBM Prob not surprising to anyone about the shooters being almost exclusively male but all the same an interesting element IMO Although Audrey was born female she identified as male if I am not mistaken.
4."In public discourse, mass shootings are often blamed on mental illness. But the research indicates the role of mental illness in mass shootings is complicated, not clear-cut. Mental health issues were common among those who engaged in mass shootings, with psychosis playing a minor role in nearly one third of the cases, but a primary role 10% of the time.
The data indicate, however, that nearly all persons who engage in mass shootings were in state of crisis in the days or weeks preceding the shooting." BBM - IMO usually there is an event/catalyst that precipitates a crisis. What was that trigger for Audrey's crisis if she was having one ?
(I have been in and out of this thread so apologies if some of the info re potential crisis etc has been made public and I missed it )
ALL IMO

 

[waldojabba]

Finally . . .


edited by me to include post I am responding to

I guess there is no timetable for release but they are reviewing the info and are going to release, so that imo is very positive news

 

[MyBelle]

Nashville Police Halt Release Of Covenant Shooter’s Manifesto Due To ‘Pending Litigation’

Nashville Police Halt Release Of Covenant Shooter’s Manifesto Due To ‘Pending Litigation’ Kate Anderson on May 3, 2023 The Metro Nashville Police

www.shorenewsnetwork.com

“Covenant investigation update: Due to pending litigation filed this week, the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department has been advised by counsel to hold in abeyance the release of records related to the shooting at The Covenant School pending orders or direction of the court,” the statement read on the MNPD Twitter account.

 

[housewife]

How do you know these writings are "non- rational musing" ? I think the victims' families and as well as we the people with children attending schools need to know.

Sorry, I will clarify. There is no rational reason to kill a child. So anything the shooter writes to justify their actions will only "make sense" to themselves.

I think we are learning that each shooter is unique in their reasons, but all shooters follow a pattern of:
-Trauma
-Crisis point
-Obtaining a weapon

<modsnip>

 

[Ontario Mom]

"It has been more than a month since the shooter was killed and the officers involved have been praised for their actions in the incident," Doug Pierce, a lawyer for the NPA, said. "Accordingly, there is no criminal case and there is no reasonable likelihood of there ever being a criminal case arising from this incident. The Metro Nashville Police Department has sought to rely upon a rule of Criminal Procedure to deny public access, but those Rules only relate to a 'criminal proceeding," Pierce added." Nashville shooting: Police group sues for release of suspect Audrey Hale's manifesto

Curious that the National Police Association thinks this manifesto should be public, so much so that they've already filed a lawsuit to make it happen. It shouldn't take a lawsuit to release this information to the public.

 

[housewife]

I had never heard of the National Police Association, which was another entity requesting release of the journals. Again, because of their name, I assumed they were a federal agency or something. But I guess not?
The Association consists of members of law enforcement as I expected, as well as lawyers. Their website says they defend against anti-police rhetoric.
It looks like they are a group of individuals that sent out surveys regarding immigration issues, and they request donations from people.
But it’s weird, because some law enforcement sources say they have never even heard of the association. And the money raised doesn’t actually benefit your local Sheriff, it is kept by the Association.

“Diane Goldstein, a retired police lieutenant who is the chair of the Law Enforcement Action Partnership, has raised questions previously about the National Police Association.
“What’s critically important is that for me, it appears that the National Police Association has nothing to do with law enforcement, and even if they did, what they are doing is pushing back against proper and necessary reforms that are necessary in the criminal justice system,” Goldstein said. “They’re perpetuating the division between law enforcement and the communities that they're supposed to serve.”
What is the National Police Association, the group that asked Trump to amend Baltimore's police consent decree?

 

[Sundog]

The Association consists of members of law enforcement as I expected, as well as lawyers. Their website says they defend against anti-police rhetoric.
It looks like they are a group of individuals that sent out surveys regarding immigration issues, and they request donations from people.

<snipped for focus>

Sounds good to me, a national organization focused on its particular mission. Nothing wrong with that. The person quoted who is critical of this organization has a different philosphy of policing, so it is understandable that she would be critical of them.

 

[Ontario Mom]

<snipped for focus>

Sounds good to me, a national organization focused on its particular mission. Nothing wrong with that. The person quoted who is critical of this organization has a different philosphy of policing, so it is understandable that she would be critical of them.

A national organization of down to earth, genuine men and women in LE, dedicated to making communities safe and prosperous for *everyone* in the community.

This is EXACTLY what we need.

 

[Sundog]

Here is the actual description of the National Police Association, from their website, with information on their mission and their lawsuit related to the lack of response to their FOIA request regarding the case of the materials left behind by the Nashville shooter.

The National Police Association Files Suit to Obtain the Nashville Shooter ‘Manifesto’ and Other Records, National Police Association

Indianapolis, April 28, 2023 - - The National Police Association (NPA) announced today that it has filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit in...

nationalpolice.org

Here is a copy of the actual lawsuit by the National Police Association due to the lack of response by Metro Nashville Police Department to the NPA's FOIA request.

https://nationalpolice.org/main/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Brewer-v-Nashville.pdf

 

[MyBelle]

I had never heard of the National Police Association, which was another entity requesting release of the journals. Again, because of their name, I assumed they were a federal agency or something. But I guess not?
The Association consists of members of law enforcement as I expected, as well as lawyers. Their website says they defend against anti-police rhetoric.
It looks like they are a group of individuals that sent out surveys regarding immigration issues, and they request donations from people.
But it’s weird, because some law enforcement sources say they have never even heard of the association. And the money raised doesn’t actually benefit your local Sheriff, it is kept by the Association.

“Diane Goldstein, a retired police lieutenant who is the chair of the Law Enforcement Action Partnership, has raised questions previously about the National Police Association.
“What’s critically important is that for me, it appears that the National Police Association has nothing to do with law enforcement, and even if they did, what they are doing is pushing back against proper and necessary reforms that are necessary in the criminal justice system,” Goldstein said. “They’re perpetuating the division between law enforcement and the communities that they're supposed to serve.”
What is the National Police Association, the group that asked Trump to amend Baltimore's police consent decree?

Now that they have filed a lawsuit, they've given Nashville police a legit excuse for not releasing the writings. It will be delay, delay, delay.


JMO

 

[Imvp2]

Thanks for the clarification @Ontario Mom
The important take aways for me from the above linked study:
1. Education - teaching people to think critically as part of our school curriculum's will encourage and develop the ability to process information accurately. We all are bombarded with so much information everyday that is is helpful to be able to process it all in a way that is intellectually accurate IMO
"The researchers recommended media literacy education as a means of helping people critically consume information and counter extremist propaganda that facilitates violence."
2."About 70% of individuals who perpetrated mass shooting knew at least some of their victims. In particular, K-12 school and workplace shooters were “insiders” — current or former students and employees. That finding has implications for physical security measures and the use of active shooter drills." SO IMO we have familiarity playing a role - which seems to be accurate in this mass shooting. Audrey attended school there for one year and there were five yearbooks from that school found at the house in the police search. Did someone else from her household attend that school also or work there?
3".Of the 172 individuals who engaged in public mass shootings covered in the database, 97.7% were male. Ages ranged from 11 to 70, with a mean age of 34.1. Those shooting were 52.3% White, 20.9% Black, 8.1% Latino, 6.4% Asian, 4.2% Middle Eastern, and 1.8% Native American." BBM Prob not surprising to anyone about the shooters being almost exclusively male but all the same an interesting element IMO Although Audrey was born female she identified as male if I am not mistaken.
4."In public discourse, mass shootings are often blamed on mental illness. But the research indicates the role of mental illness in mass shootings is complicated, not clear-cut. Mental health issues were common among those who engaged in mass shootings, with psychosis playing a minor role in nearly one third of the cases, but a primary role 10% of the time.
The data indicate, however, that nearly all persons who engage in mass shootings were in state of crisis in the days or weeks preceding the shooting." BBM - IMO usually there is an event/catalyst that precipitates a crisis. What was that trigger for Audrey's crisis if she was having one ?
(I have been in and out of this thread so apologies if some of the info re potential crisis etc has been made public and I missed it )
ALL IMO

Question Why doesn't your race percentages equal 100% odd?

 

[iamshadow21]

Question Why doesn't your race percentages equal 100% odd?

Two possibilities - mixed race people exist, as do people who don't fit one of those racial backgrounds. Also, data on the racial background of some subjects may not have been available.

MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

"A judge in Nashville has received the unredacted manifesto of Covenant School shooter Audrey Elizabeth Hale following several lawsuits demanding its release to the public, according to a local report. Attorneys representing the city delivered the unredacted writings and a second version with proposed redactions to the Davidson County Chancellor’s chambers for review on Friday, FOX17 Nashville reported."

Nashville Covenant School shooter's unredacted manifesto given to judge ahead of public hearing: report

The unredacted manifesto of Covenant School shooter Audrey Elizabeth Hale was reportedly given to a Nashville judge ahead of a public hearing.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Sundog]

"A judge in Nashville has received the unredacted manifesto of Covenant School shooter Audrey Elizabeth Hale following several lawsuits demanding its release to the public, according to a local report. Attorneys representing the city delivered the unredacted writings and a second version with proposed redactions to the Davidson County Chancellor’s chambers for review on Friday, FOX17 Nashville reported."

Nashville Covenant School shooter's unredacted manifesto given to judge ahead of public hearing: report

The unredacted manifesto of Covenant School shooter Audrey Elizabeth Hale was reportedly given to a Nashville judge ahead of a public hearing.

www.foxnews.com

So the lawsuit is proceeding, and the City of Nashville provided the judge with both an unredacted version of the shooter's manifesto, etc., and also a redacted version which presumably they are recommending.

Here is another article on this latest development, and it says that a public hearing will be held by the Judge in June. Presumably all the groups and individuals who have a lawsuit will be able to provide input, as well as others (including Tennessee state legislators, the Governor, etc.)

It's incredible that it has taken several lawsuits to get this document released to the public.

And I doubt that the public will accept a redacted version, we want transparency, finally.

 

[Cedars]

So the lawsuit is proceeding, and the City of Nashville provided the judge with both an unredacted version of the shooter's manifesto, etc., and also a redacted version which presumably they are recommending.

Here is another article on this latest development, and it says that a public hearing will be held by the Judge in June. Presumably all the groups and individuals who have a lawsuit will be able to provide input, as well as others (including Tennessee state legislators, the Governor, etc.)

It's incredible that it has taken several lawsuits to get this document released to the public.

And I doubt that the public will accept a redacted version, we want transparency, finally.

Hopefully they would explain the reasons for redactions. For example, the names of specific people should be redacted, to respect their privacy. Just because I write a suicide note full of hate towards my ex-husband, doesn't mean the whole world gets to read it.

JMO

 

[Snail-Overlord]

JMO but I have to wonder if any part of the manifesto includes detailed information on planning that could inspire a copycat. It sounds like it is a pretty lengthy piece of writing. It does seem that a lot of mass shooters are inspired by other mass shooters, so part of me worries about that. I hope that anything that could serve as a reference or instructions is redacted before its release, if it is released.

(MOO)