Trail to the Water & Cadaver dog hits

[dunlurken]

There is a whole thread about this. I think the mod will incorporate your thread.

 

[Capri]

More quotes from Brian Selzer, handler of one of the dogs:
http://www.news4jax.com/news/18805304/detail.html

 

[Pennsolveania]

I agree with you all.

3 different dogs giving 'cadaver alerts' on construction debris?

That doesn't exactly instill any confidence in me about the worthiness of the dogs. Sorry poochies

 

[scandi]

Excellent point. Thank you. I sure would like to see a video of the dogs "hitting".

Hi Dunlurking, It is really interesting and surprising at the same time.

The handler controls the dog continually by giving him verbal commands.

The dog {Eddie from England} I watched on video didn't run right to the spot where he ended up alerting to. He ran here and there, back and around the car, then made a wider loop in the area of the car, whistled at by his handler, went back to the car and then to the other side where he faced the drivers door and sat, very excitedly giving a loud bark to his handler.


I did allot of reading about how dogs sniff, and this is just a basic recap for you:

The death scent which cadaver dogs alert to is purely chemical. Each person has their unique 'death scent' which is a combination of chemicals and like a fingerprint. No two are exactly the same. These chemicals are combined with caverdine, and it has the odour which attracts the dog.

The chemical scent wafts up from the remains {or something which has been in direct contact with the corpse} into the air, and is strongest at the point of origin, becoming less strong further away from that point as the scent spreads out into the air.

The dog in his search starts having a hit of the scent reach a certain part of his nose and then another and he turns in that direction where more scent molecules enter his nose. His nose is very complicated and as more scent wafts reach him he starts to zone in on the source of where they are coming from.

He might lose it and have to refind it which is why I think they do some running around in the process.

At some point enough hits have entered his nose to where he comes directly to the origin of the scent. He then intuitively knows there is enough scent to be what he is looking for, and he alerts. It is impersonal to him as he is just doing what he has learned so he will be rewarded with something good to eat. Eddie always gets salmon with cream when he alerts.

I should also say that alerts are qualified as to strength and weakness. With 3 dogs barking at the same spot it sounds like it was a strong alert to me, from a layman's point of view.


PS: The other dog thread got closed so I posted this here as it is on topic. ;}

 

[dunlurken]

This is very bad. A dog gets rewarded for alerting by giving him salmon, etc. Not good! My cat would probably alert and lay down if I gave him fresh salmon.

 

[desertmom]

So the cadaver dog hit was an anomoly? I wonder if JB is taking note of this and will us it Casey's defense??? Just a thought.

 

[scandi]

This is very bad. A dog gets rewarded for alerting by giving him salmon, etc. Not good! My cat would probably alert and lay down if I gave him fresh salmon.

LOL The training of a dog is a very sophisticated process, and there are checks and balances to where the dog will not alert unless his nose tells him to.

At the body farm they have done tests where they will bury body parts from different bodies, give the dog the scent of one of those parts. The dog alerts only on the body part that matches the scent he has been given. In the test I read about the dog passed up every body part until he came to the correct one.

Dogs always work on the reward system. Even at the dog show he is given a treat if he performs as to the handlers direction. They are very smart, and know they will get nothing if they don't do their job correctly. ;}


PS: Take Keela the blood dog from England. She can find minute spots of blood not visible to the naked eye. She alerts to it. They know this as they test the area and the blood shows up forensically.

 

[RhythmicSun]

hi scandi, I'm just wondering about "each person has their death scent" because NG had a woman and her cadaver dog on last night doing a demo re dog hits. She said everyone has a unique scent while alive, but all decomposing human flesh has the same scent.

 

[Capri]

If the dogs hit on that dumpster and they don't know why... they need to find out why! I hope they don't blow this off too quickly. They're all aware of the statistics... bodies are usually found close to the home. JMO.

this is really disturbing. It just me, or does anyone else find the easy dismissal of the dog hits a problem?

 

[murdershewrote]

I'm also very disturbed by this...it's the first real sign of evidence and they just blew it off by having a bunch of relatively untrained guys (by that I mean probably not trained in this type of forensics) going thru the dumpster. They were probably just looking for a body but there could be very minute traces of something in there that triggered 3 different dogs.

At some point there was something dead in that dumpster, IMO.

did the FBI get involved?

 

[passionflower]

Wow, I discovered some very salient points on here, folks. Stuff that had never occurred to me.

Crabbers are a whole breed apart from anyone else based on my own limited exposure to them. Very under-the-table, under-the-radar kind of existence. And they know the ins and outs of the river and its tributaries and canals better than anybody.

Somewhere someone on here mentioned looking upstream, not just downstream. If they are going to bother looking beyond the water's edge, and if they really think it is an abduction, then why wouldn't they look upstream too?

PCSO's first fear was what time the next CSX train was coming through in case Haleigh was out on the tracks. The officers and dispatch on duty when this happened would be very familiar with the train's routine schedule, so maybe a passing freight train could've thrown the scent.

Crystal's father lives on 309 near Georgetown, I believe. The abandoned building or shack was near there.

Hmmm....

Thanks for all the stuff to chew on.

Yep, you would think all this would be checked out............
thanks for your info.
This is so frustrating, LE not saying anything.

 

[MADJGNLAW]

this is really disturbing. It just me, or does anyone else find the easy dismissal of the dog hits a problem?

I agree...I would have a big problem with this if I were the family. I am sure it is a big relief to them that the child was not in the dumpster as it is for everyone. But the fact still remains. 3 dogs hit on that dumpster from what I understood. So, are they saying that all three dogs are wrong? It dose not make sense to.

 

[impatientredhead]

I'm also very disturbed by this...it's the first real sign of evidence and they just blew it off by having a bunch of relatively untrained guys (by that I mean probably not trained in this type of forensics) going thru the dumpster. They were probably just looking for a body but there could be very minute traces of something in there that triggered 3 different dogs.

At some point there was something dead in that dumpster, IMO.

did the FBI get involved?

I just wrote a post and poof it is gone. Hopefully this won't end up be a duplicate.

Three dogs are not wrong about there being something there. The only thing we know at this point is that LE has not been able to tie anything at that scene to Haleigh, yet anyway.

It is possible that another body was disposed of in that dumpster somewhere along the way in this dumpsters "life cycle". It is also full of debris from a home renovation. I assume they will find out if the previous tenant died in the home, and thus the renovation and the dogs hitting there. Or Haleigh's body is not there, but something that was in contact with her is. LE said they were perserving the contents. At this point if they are confident her body is not there, and the contents are preserved so they can look for matching fibers found on the body etc... then they are managing their resources. Any time they spend rifling through garbage that may or may not be related is taking away from other searches that might lead to her.

 

[impatientredhead]

hi scandi, I'm just wondering about "each person has their death scent" because NG had a woman and her cadaver dog on last night doing a demo re dog hits. She said everyone has a unique scent while alive, but all decomposing human flesh has the same scent.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4623888/Cadaver-Dog-Handbook-Forensic-Training-Tactics

Page 26

Cadaver scent differs from live scent. It is chemically generic and not specific to one individual. The chemical reactions associated with human decomposition are essentially the same in all bodies. However cadaver scent is not a single scent, but a range of scents produced at different stages of the decomposition process.

 

[kiki the parrot]

Excellent point! I've wondered how that abandoned vehicle fit into the picture and why LE was being so secretive about it. The only thing I thought of was two perps and two vehicles, with one left behind. But, your theory about a boat/canoe makes sense. If the person who drove the abandoned car had a boat or canoe on top of the car, he could have made an escape with Haleigh in the boat or canoe and left the car behind.

Or... maybe perp initially on foot, following then luring Haleigh to secluded location (such as outbuilding or abandoned vehicle, eg) disposing of Haleigh in the immediate vicinity--but returning later, by boat or car to retrieve her, once it was dark and he could safely conceal and get her out of area w/out being spotted. JMO
:waitasec:
arrot:

 

[secret_agent_mom]

Now the rr tracks is another issue. Unless Ron can say that he and Haleigh went to watch the trains go by.

The bus stop is right by the railroad tracks.

There is more discussion this in this forum.

<url> http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80416 </url>

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I know this topic has been discussed a little in other threads, but feel it deserves a thread of its own.

THREE different cadaver dogs hit on a dumpster located close to the home where a 5 year old disappeared and the local police (? - I think he was a local) are saying it must have been "a sanitary product"????? NO WAY!

Nancy Grace had dog handlers on her show several times during the early weeks of the Caylee Anthony case. Cadaver dogs don't hit on "sanitary products" - they hit on human decomposition smell ONLY.

Does anyone know - was any of the garbage from the dumpster taken away to be tested?

Someone on another thread wrote this: "So if the dogs only hit on remains and more than one dog hit there(dumpster), but they didn't find anything, what does that mean? I'm confused. "

It would mean that a dead body was in the dumpster at some point and was then removed. Just like there was the smell of decomposition in the trunk of Casey Anthony's car from the body having been in there.

Somewhere along the way during the Anthony case there was a link to a site that talked about how soon after a death there would be decomposition that a dog could pick up. IIRC the article said after a few hours - like maybe 2 or 3 hours. Anyone else remember this?

The cadaver dogs hitting is HUGE news, yet it is certainly being downplayed by LE. And anyone who is saying that cadaver dogs would hit on 'sanitary products" is being either very stupid or very intentionally misleading.

 

[raisincharlie]

I agree with you on this one AlwaysShocked - three trained Cadaver dogs hit the same dumpster. The smell of decompensation can be detected by a trained dog within 2 hours of death. Handlers will tell you however that a well trained dog can pick up on something as small as a band aide. I can reach no real conclusion as to what the search and hits by the dogs means.

I don't buy this was a routine search just to tie up loose ends as LE is claiming. From re-reading the articles relating to the dumpster - a second was brought out and used to transport materials to a location for a more thorough search. The dumpster was searched on 2/26 - by now were something found, DNA could have been run and completed. Strange that LE shows up today to collect DNA samples from anyone known to have entered the Cummings' trailer home. LE has some reason for doing that - some DNA has been found somewhere that is suspicious enough to warrant LE collecting all these samples today. JMO.

Adding - the problem with the dumpster is who knows where this specific dumpster was used before and what it may have contained at some other time. They aren't cleaned up much after being dumped.

 

[Scorpian]

I heard the same things...not sure what to think...the more time that passes the more I wonder what LE is really doing....Is the FBi involved?

We hear nothing, see nothing, know nothing,,,where do we go from here on this case? All we have right now are the locals and family who are great but they can't tell anything for fear and not wanting to interfere with the investigation.

I have not heard of one lawyer stepping forward and saying,,whooooo baby...subpeones going out every where, dna being taken, interviews/interegations going on, open door searches...Good grief...I've heard of people who will not let you on their property w/o a warrant, will not submit to vehicle searches w/o a warrant, will do what needs to be done to protect their rights...With that said I know this is about finding Haleigh First and Foremost but give me a break....I can't explain what I feel right now but the future does not look bright.

How is this happening? I'm being impatient and want answers but road blocks at every turn...I can only imagine how Haleigh's family feels....

Sorry if I got OT from your post but there is really no place left to post. Info is scarce...

 

[kikid]

There sure has been many interesting developments tonight concerning dogs. Don't know if that's good or bad. O/T a little, but I am such a non-emotional person that I rarely cry. When all this broke, big tears swelled up in my eyes. I just couldn't help it. Ok, back to the dogs . . There has been a lot of discussion about the trail the tracking dogs took and if they were really following her scent. I don't doubt that the trail thru the park could have been the path that the school bus took that morning/afternoon. However, I still firmly believe when the dog exited thru the back door and to the water, that was her freshest scent. Does anybody know where the dumpster ( that was searched today) sits in relation to the water? TIA. . .

did the dog exit the trailer and go out the back door following scent? I thought they had taken the blankets (freshly washed) outside the back door and through them on the ground for the dogs and then they picked up the scent from there.