trial day 50: REBUTTAL; #153

[Mrs G Norris]

I am not big on conspiracy theories. But the timing of the theft, and after reading some of JA support fan pages and the, shall we put it kindly, delusion that seems to exist within some of those posters, I think it is not outside the realm of possibility.

Unlikely, but possible.

I'm the same, at first I thought no way .. but seeing some of the ways Jodi has found to 'reach beyond prison walls' I think that yes, it is possible. I'm very glad it didn't work, but it's awful to think of other people's personal information in the hands of the wrong people.

Do psychologists use code names for patients?

 

[nomoresorrow]

(BBM)

I know bad etiquette to bring my post over but did want some feedback as the thread closed.

It was interesting listening to a TH today. She said it's important to have the jury know the difference between PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder.

Defendants with PTSD can be rehabilitated, but those with BPD can not be rehabilitated. They fall in the same line as Serial killers. That's why JW and the defense are fighting so hard against the Borderline Personality Disorder.

According to the TH's a jury is more inclined to go for a stiffer sentence when a defendant cant be rehabilitated.

It seems this is why JW was fighting so hard.

Thoughts ?

Not directed at you personally Coldpizza... but I completely disagree with this TH's statement - matter of fact I think it's downright unprofessional of him/her to make a statement like that, especially on national television. There have been members here who have honestly and bravely disclosed that they have BPD and a statement like this is very hurtful to those who have it and work hard to overcome the obstacles a diagnosis such as this presents.

Nonetheless, there is treatment available for BPD;

According to NIMG... Types of psychotherapy used to treat borderline personality disorder include the following:

1.Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). CBT can help people with borderline personality disorder identify and change core beliefs and/or behaviors that underlie inaccurate perceptions of themselves and others and problems interacting with others. CBT may help reduce a range of mood and anxiety symptoms and reduce the number of suicidal or self-harming behaviors.

2.Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT). This type of therapy focuses on the concept of mindfulness, or being aware of and attentive to the current situation.1 DBT teaches skills to control intense emotions, reduces self-destructive behaviors, and improves relationships. This therapy differs from CBT in that it seeks a balance between changing and accepting beliefs and behaviors.

3.Schema-focused therapy. This type of therapy combines elements of CBT with other forms of psychotherapy that focus on reframing schemas, or the ways people view themselves. This approach is based on the idea that borderline personality disorder stems from a dysfunctional self-image—possibly brought on by negative childhood experiences—that affects how people react to their environment, interact with others, and cope with problems or stress.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder/complete-index.shtml

ETA: Sorry, just noticed that the TH was specifically referring to "defendents" - so does that apply to just those with BPD who (like Jodi) have committed a serious violent act(s)? Just curious...

 

[gauntlet]

Speaking of screen shots, there was an interesting view of JA when JN was recrossing the Dr. I would appreciate it if someone can capture this particular shot, as I do not how to do it. Juan is directing a question at Dr Demarte. JA is clearly not liking the answer and she wipes her hands across her face, chin and bears her teeth as in the scarey photo of her where she is posing and bearing her teeth. She is looking at the Dr when she does this.

Once all the clips are uploaded here, if you find the moment and tell me exactly where it is I can do it for you http://www.youtube.com/user/croakerqueen123?feature=watch

 

[garthmax]

I know bad etiquette to bring my post over but did want some feedback as the thread closed.

It was interesting listening to a TH today. She said it's important to have the jury know the difference between PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder.

Defendants with PTSD can be rehabilitated, but those with BPD can not be rehabilitated. They fall in the same line as Serial killers. That's why JW and the defense are fighting so hard against the Borderline Personality Disorder.

According to the TH's a jury is more inclined to go for a stiffer sentence when a defendant cant be rehabilitated.

It seems this is why JW was fighting so hard.

Thoughts ?

BPD is the result of several factors and has many s/s. You can be rehabilitated but it takes years of therapy. I suffered from anorexia/bulemia since I was eight years old. BPD was a secondary dx. It is a disorder not an excuse for murder. It is a results of years of physical and emotional abuse during early childhood developmental years. Since I had 15 years of therapy, I am more aware of my grandchildren feelings now. The abuse stopped with me and didn't go farther.

 

[SassyMom]

Brought from the other thread....

It's just crazy! If I'm in a fight for my life, I'm getting the hell out of there as soon as I can. Nobody is going to stay around to even semi tidy up for any reason. No, I take tha back. You would do that if you just killed someone and you needed to erase any signs you were there. Fight or flight did not happen that day. I was a little taken aback by some of the jurors questions. For the first time ever, I wonder if we are looking at a hung jury. Seems like a few of the questions were pro Jodi, and I have to think they were all from the same juror.

Seriously, if I was being abused and battered, even if NO ONE knew, and I felt my batterer was going to kill me and I fought him off and KILLED him, I would have called the cops and NOT fled. Fleeing indicates you did something wrong, and if I killed someone in self-defense, I did nothing wrong. I certainly wouldn't wait TWO YEARS to admit I killed him and THEN tell them about the abuse, I would've told the cops THAT NIGHT about the abuse. All the things she did before she left CA, and all the things she did after the murder are just TOO hinky to be believe for a self-defense claim.

There is something else about the actual trauma surrounding the murder to me.....and I think it dovetails with the Tiger/Bear Attack question. I think DeMarte touched on it but didn't flesh it out to the degree I am.

There has GOT to be a difference in reaction to a trauma that happens TO you, rather than a trauma that YOU cause, especially pre-meditatively. There is trauma associated with being attacked and in real fear of your life, definitely, and having to fight FOR your life from an attacker. And while the violent, bloody way the murder was carried out would be traumatising for the person who did it (if they're 'normal'), she went there with the intent to kill him and therefore, even though it was a dreadful battle and scarey and bloody, she accomplished what she set out to do. Therefore, she pretty much 'shook off' the trauma of it by the time she was far away from his house because it was her intent to kill him, and she was NOT profoundly affected by the event, and therefore would NOT experience PTSD.

The rest of the questions indicate to me that 1) they are staying open-minded and not shining her on and 2) the average person has a hard time fully understanding the intricacies of the effects of trauma on the individual. If there is a pro-Jodi juror, they are pretty timid and could possibly be convinced otherwise because imo there are a lot of pro-prosecution jurors who are not at all timid.

 

[ElleElle]

I'm de-sensitized by the sex tape/talk.

That is how me and my boyfriend were the first year of our relationship, before we actually committed to each other.

I wonder if things would have ended like this if Travis would of gave his heart & soul to Jodi.

 

[zoozoo]

Moving from last thread because I got shut out!

I didn't like the questions. If I missed something, please let me know. I did not see Jodi as being scared. I thought she smiled a lot, talked a lot and looked a bit haughty. Anyone share my opinion? Cause I am thinking there is one pro defense juror.

I am on the fence too. I think it's a good sign there were not a lot of questions but a several were on experience and that is not so good.

The"bear, tiger" question is confusing. I felt like it implies there is a juror who is buying Samuels' claim that even though JA wrote the trauma was a "bear" when it was a "tiger", she answered all subsequent questions with respect to it being a "tiger". That is concerning if someone believes that, but I can kind of see why they might. However, these psych tests are very specific, and a properly trained psychologist would NEVER consider the test valid if that initial untruth was discovered because if the person will lie on that part, what is to say they will not lie on any of the subsequent questions? There is just no way to tell if she was continuing to lie or not, so it becomes an invalid test that cannot be considered. Hopefully there are jurors who can help others understand this.

In contrast, I thought Dr. DeMarte's answer to the question re: stabbing and killing Travis being a traumatic event was fantastic. She clearly explained that of course it could be, but in this case even if it was, it did not lead to PTSD as evidenced by JA's behaviors of seeking out triggers (memorial, journaling re:Travis, irises etc.). I do believe the juror was asking in a snarky kind of way because Dr. DeMarte had testified on cross that that event was not traumatic in her view (in the sense of creating PTSD in JA), and it is hard for any of us to imagine that event not being traumatic given the crime scene photos. But IMO, Dr. DeMarte clarified her position on it very well.

Overall, the questions made me a bit nervous. I sense the jury wishes she had more experience but liked her and the way she presented her findings. IMO JM called this witness to refute Samuels and LaV - their opinions and their lack of professionalism - and to provide a psych diagnosis that makes more sense with the evidence than DV and/or PTSD and removes excuses for JA's killing of Travis. I think now he wants to get into the meat of the premeditation and horror of the crime.

Trying to stay positive!

 

[Avalon85]

My interpretation of the tiger/bear question was that it was slightly "hostile" to Dr.D in the sense that it seemed rhetorical (i.e., "Trauma is trauma, why are you saying that it isn't?"). But I've said from the beginning that these juror questions are useless for reading the jury because 1) The questions are submitted only by some subset of jurors who self-select, and we have no way of knowing what percentage of jurors are represented in the questions and 2) The questions are further screened by the officers of the court. both factors contribute to a process that shapes the questions, both as a body and individually, in ways that preclude them from telling us anything meaningful about where "the jury" as a body is at. JMO

I took it completely different and more in line with them questioning HER (Dr. D) about Dr. Samuels. Just like they questioned HER about his score sheet. They wanted HER opinion if his test was invalid because JA lied about the cause of the trauma. I felt the juror wanted to know if the story was a lie would it change Dr. S's test results.

I could be wrong, but that's how I took it. I didn't detect any snark or hostility. It seems like a good question to me.

 

[Words2Serve]

I have a feeling this trial is going to be all about the closing arguments:
JM can move fast, and he is going to have to be clear and concise, about what we know, all the facts we have, and really breaking down all of the DT 'fogs, cant remembers, and scenario testimony.

JM is awesome at cross, but I think this jury is really going to want it all connected, and pointed out; especially since i still believe there will be a few that won't accept knife first. Based on TA size alone they will assume he overpowered her, which is why it will be vital that JM make them understand that that is exactly the reason we KNOW this was planned; there is no other way she would have walked away unscathed if she had not planned it very carefully. Did she make some mistakes in her escape plan, obviously, but we all can agree she succeeded at BRUTALLY killing him.

 

[angelcee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kattrca View Post
I love this witness, she answered the questions as if she were having a nice glass of wine with them. I think the bear/ tiger question was brilliant amongst others. This is very telling of the juror who asked. Clearly a Tigard attack would be different than a bear and your experience would be significantly different. A bear malls, a tiger goes for the throat in the event you survived you trauma would be or PTSD would vary as to your triggers etc. just my opinion


That is the very question that gives me concern. I kept thinking...what? Fear is fear. I don't care if it's a snake you are a afraid of.....it's a real fear.
If the question had been regarding Jodi's made up fear of the ninjas, verses fear of Travis attacking her, that would have been fine. But I felt somebody was being snarky with this question.
__________________
These are my opinions, and the last time I checked, I was still entitled to them.
Brought this over....not sure what I'm doing, but I thought it was important to discuss.

I have PTSD from a terrible car wreck....if I see them on TV or hear about them it is a problem for me...Plane crashes...not so much...I hate that they happen but they don't send into flashbacks..JMO

 

[garthmax]

(BBM)


Not directed at you personally Coldpizza... but I completely disagree with this TH's statement - matter of fact I think it's downright unprofessional of him/her to make a statement like that, especially on national television. There have been members here who have honestly and bravely disclosed that they have BPD and a statement like this is very hurtful to those who have it and work hard to overcome the obstacles a diagnosis such as this presents.

Nonetheless, there is treatment available for BPD;

According to NIMG... Types of psychotherapy used to treat borderline personality disorder include the following:

1.Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). CBT can help people with borderline personality disorder identify and change core beliefs and/or behaviors that underlie inaccurate perceptions of themselves and others and problems interacting with others. CBT may help reduce a range of mood and anxiety symptoms and reduce the number of suicidal or self-harming behaviors.

2.Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT). This type of therapy focuses on the concept of mindfulness, or being aware of and attentive to the current situation.1 DBT teaches skills to control intense emotions, reduces self-destructive behaviors, and improves relationships. This therapy differs from CBT in that it seeks a balance between changing and accepting beliefs and behaviors.

3.Schema-focused therapy. This type of therapy combines elements of CBT with other forms of psychotherapy that focus on reframing schemas, or the ways people view themselves. This approach is based on the idea that borderline personality disorder stems from a dysfunctional self-image—possibly brought on by negative childhood experiences—that affects how people react to their environment, interact with others, and cope with problems or stress.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder/complete-index.shtml

YES, Thank you.

 

[I Object!]

The jurors did not seem to take issue with her expertise or her testimony. She beat JW with facts and education.

It's quite a contrast to see what Dr. Demarte and Jodi, both roughly the same age, have done with their lives.

 

[LadyEdith]

Symptoms of BPD tending to ease with age. If JA was tested again in her 40's or 50's, her score would likely be much lower.

This is true. My mother is/was a big borderline, and after things got maximally crazy in midlife, it started to mellow after menopause.

My sister as well. She is entering midlife and the crazy is raging. I assume it will also fade over time. This sou ds as if hormones may be big players.

 

[pamalamadingdong]

As far as I know, it was never recovered and the perp was never found. There are some good guesses as to whose house it's setting in.

Well, it did them no good at all! (thank goodness)

 

[Really?]

Re: Trauma by a bear vs. tiger, a simple test would be to see the subject's preference in breakfast cereals ...

or

Note to PeTA: Someone has pulled the teeth from Sugar Bear and Tony the Tiger!! Or was the sugar the culprit in the missing teeth?

Thanks for the good laugh."hahahahhaha

 

[panthera]

Good evening everyone!
:seeya:

Heard on JVM's show that JA exchanged phone numbers with another man while on the flight home from Travis' memorial service...then it cut to commercial before I heard who this man was.

So good to see Juan questioning Dr. DeMarte again though.

NG up next...

 

[FrayedKnot]

Hi!

Still catching up.

But need to respond to a post on the previous thread re: right- and left-brained people and their correspondence to either the defendant or the witness.....

There are a lot of left-handed people ( who are RIGHT BRAINED) and artistic and creative people (RIGHT BRAINED) who are nothing like the defendant.

And plenty of LEFT-brained people who are exactly like her.

Please don't generalize people that way. It is not accurate and it is offensive, although I am sure it wasn't intended as such!

Thanks! :seeya:

 

[Kensie]

Howdy.

Reposting my questions from the previous thread. Missed the juror questions. We're they good, bad or ugly?? Are these questions posted anyplace?? Thanks

Wow, I am first after Nurse!.

Quoting myself, guess I am getting desperate. Please someone answer my question or point me in the direction of the questions. PLEASE. No after dark or NG allowed at my house, bummer.

 

[TartLemon]

Jodi gave a guy her contact info on the plane ride home from the Memorial? Did this guy come forward?

 

[Softail]

Part 5 - Juror questions (also put in timeline thread)

[video=youtube;YDO0bqaIbmk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDO0bqaIbmk[/video]