Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[jay-jay]

Apr 14 Session 3
Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 3 - YouTube

@15:45 Nel starts talking about the moments immediately after the shots.

@16:50
Nel: why would you scream, why would you scream out
OP: I was scared. I wanted to ask Reeva why is she phoning the police

Unless I heard incorrectly, that is a BOMBSHELL ...possibly the prime motive for snuffing her out -- he was afraid she was going to call the police!

I think in his confused state on the stand at that moment, op got the contexts of his post kill screams mixed up with pre-kill screams.

Have listened to that bit a couple of times over now and it sounds to me as if he says "I wanted to ask Reeva why".. then quickly realises what he is saying and then says "if" .. (not 'is') .. she is phoning the police. At least I think so, I'm not sure, but it's still one very big slip up .. a bit like where he,imo, verly nearly went to say "that's what I've been told (to say?)" in another part of his 'evidence' earlier today when questioned about something .. and he stopped at "that's what I've been to .." then quickly changed it to say something else (I posted on here at the time he said it because it stood out a mile to me just at that point).

 

[aa9511]

If you look at where the duvet is on the floor, it would not be possible for OP to be running back and forth to the balcony as he claimed to be that night. OP has been insistent that the duvet was on the bed and even agreed that the duvet being on the floor is a problem for his version. He says the police put it there.

So now jump to the LED light. Oscar claims after he placed the fans in the room that he went over to the amp to cover the light. In my opinion, this gives Reeva more time to get up to go to the bathroom and OP not to see her. Oscar says that he started to put the jeans on the light, but then heard the noise so he placed the jeans back down on the floor.

If the jeans are on top of the duvet, the duvet was on the ground.

Nel showing that there was blood spatter on that duvet, and also on the carpet in the same spot, I believe, proves that the duvet was on the ground.

I still don't understand why the jeans are there in the first place. And wouldn't it be relatively easy to determine if they are Reeva's jeans or not? If they are not Reeva's jeans, what are they doing there?

 

[benn25]

bbm

Why is Oscar backtracking on the "whispering"?? Why is he lying about it now and saying he didn't whisper? I don't understand why he continues to be stubborn over things that he doesn't really even need to lie about?

OP made a mistake on Fri aswell. Earlier on in the day he said he spoke to Reeva quietly to tell her to "get down and call the police".
Later on in the day when Nel was interogating him about what he said to Reeva when he thought there was an intruder in the house he slipped and said "i shouted at Reeva...."

It pissed me off on Friday coz Nel didnt pick him up on it and also I couldnt post it here as Id just joined.

Idk but OP could of been confused about the line of questioning. I dont think he was but he definitely slipped up imv.

 

[jay-jay]

Maybe but I put the speaker to my ear and he might have said "isn't' instead of "is". [phoning the police]

... mmm .. not sure .. I've listened to it again and he deffo says "she's" or "she is" so the word "isn't" wouldn't naturally proceed that .. it sounds more like "if" to me, i.e. "if she's.." .. but then the word "why" in front of "if" only makes sense if he suddenly realised what he was saying and corrected himself, which does seem to be to be what he did there ..

 

[atthelake]

I too was surprised when the state rested so quickly , thinking is this all there is. Wasn't impressed at all.

Seems like just the opposite of our trials where the state lays out the case and the defense just has to lay the groundwork for reason doubt the in state's case.

But if it is a self defense case, doesn't that change things like in the US where is then becomes an affirmative defense? Therefore the confusion today if they were changing the plea due to the differing testimony of Oscar? Perhaps that is why the judge wanted to meet in chambers?

 

[G.bng]

The State DO have to present some version of events.

Look at all the wild theories posted here? Ranging fom OP chasing Reeva all around the house on his stumps, smashing doors, windows, firing an air rifle, watching Gay *advertiser censored*, firing extra shots out the window. Bashing the toilet door but leaving it delicately poised so that he can see Reeva etc etc etc. There has to be a REALISTIC version... a hypothesis of when the "argument" started.. and why? Why would a rational young man decide to chase, trap his (loved) girlfriend and shoot her at 3:00AM????... that is the biggest thing that "Does not make any sense"... The State do have to propose why such a bizarre event occurred at all. There is also the evidence and time line arising from State's own witnesses. It all fits OP's version and NOT the State's version, I gather from hints such as shots at 3:17... that is impossible and makes the State's version impossible from the outset (whatever the other details are)... stuff like that needs to be presented.. and the Defense have to have the opportunity to tear it apart... in the same way that Nel is attempting to tear OP's version apart.

I put it to you that it will be easy peasy to tear the State's version apart. Their own witnesses have already done that.

Then maybe you should contact Judge Masipa and tell her to throw the case out for lack of evidence, as she can, or if not contact Roux and tell him to immediately put forward a "No case to answer" (I believe he can do that at any time after the State rests its case) because it appears you must know more about SA law and protocol than both of them do... ;-)

Seriously. If you follow trials out of your comfort zone you should try to stop looking at it the US way and start understanding that other countries may do it a different way and not because there justice any less valid than that of the US... just different!

And easy peasy it has been for Nel to get OP to already admit to culpable homicide, and it just maybe he also has got him admit to murder depending on what inferences the judge can take.

 

[jay-jay]

OP made a mistake on Fri aswell. Earlier on in the day he said he spoke to Reeva quietly to tell her to "get down and call the police".
Later on in the day when Nel was interogating him about what he said to Reeva when he thought there was an intruder in the house he slipped and said "i shouted at Reeva...."

It pissed me off on Friday coz Nel didnt pick him up on it and also I couldnt post it here as Id just joined.

Idk but OP could of been confused about the line of questioning. I dont think he was but he definitely slipped up imv.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that all these little slip ups are being noted down, so I wouldn't worry too much .. I think that Nel is deliberately not picking him up on many of these things because he doesn't want him to actually confess there and then, he wants to have the opportunity to question him about everything and try and get somewhere nearer the truth .. because if OP suddenly just says "I confess!" then we're not really going to be any the wiser about what acutally happened that night other than that he did, knowingly, kill her. I think Nel is trying to find out a bit more about it and will try and weedle it out of him eventually.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Thank you.

I am troubled by this as someone who believes OP is guilty of murder.

Based on the prosecution's witnesses, the fatal gunshots were at approximately 3:15 (when the screaming stopped).

OP made 3 calls (Stander, Netcare, Baba) and received 1 call between 3:19 a.m. to 3:22 a.m.

If Baba came into the house at 3:26 a.m. that doesn't leave much time for OP to break down the toilet door.

I am discounting the running back and forth to scream for help and to put on his prosthetics.

Given the above events, even if we assume he was already on prosthetics, he had only a few minutes on either side of the phone calls to break down the door, open it and retrieve Reeva.

Its still possible, but timeframe is extremely tight.

Edit: I'd have to hypothesise that OP already had the cricket bat on him and had already tried to break down the door (that would save time and may also explain the bangs that woke the Stipps)

i have previously discounted the bat before the shots due to the fact that the panels with the bullet holes in were removed. but on closer inspection... the thinner rightmost panel (above [d] nearest to the right hand woodenframe that holds the lock and handle) could have been opened enough to see in. op was positioned off to the right, so could have seen into the toilet and across to the left. hope the attachment works...

 

[04009margaret]

Just found this court stenographer's transcript on Sky news website

http://news.sky.com/story/1242058/oscar-pistorius-trial-stenographers-transcript

 

[aa9511]

I can see OP going to pieces again today because he just can't figure where Nel's going with half of these questions and that seems to be frustrating him.

I think Oscar probably spent the weekend perusing comments about his testimony, and he realizes it's probably going to be "game over" for him due to the truth being uncovered by his testimony. That's why he was so discouraged today.

JMO.

 

[jay-jay]

I also need to listen to that bit again where OP is tesifying about when he 'realised it could be Reeva' .. then checked the bed from the bathroom side, then got off the bed on the balcony side .. then I'm sure he said he checked the floor with his hands before checking the curtains .. but then later on he said he went straight to check the curtains after having checked the bed, and that he only checked along the side of the bed by walking along it! I swear that is what he said! I need to go back and verify ..

 

[jay-jay]

That bit about 'checking the balcony' when he ran out onto the balcony to scream was deffo most weird, as well ... and then trying to argue his way out of it :facepalm:

 

[G.bng]

I honestly believe Nel nailed him on murder today. Here's the thing - Oscar's defence was supposed to be putative self-defence. In that, he intended to shoot because he was so in fear that his life was endangered there was no alternative and because a reasonable person would have reacted the same it can't be murder. Last week he said it was accidental. He keeps saying he never intended to shoot anyone but that isn't a putative self-defence claim at all - the evidence clearly shows he did intend to shoot whomever was behind that door. He's so focused on the perception of absolutely no wrong-doing on his part that he's oblivious to the fact that he's actually demolishing his own defence strategy.

An accidental shooting is one thing, a putative self-defence killing quite another, but by vacillating between the two I think Oscar helped the State prove it's case for murder.

JMO

I agree but can't help myself still wondering whether there is a legal technicality or interpretation I'm missing and that the judge will lower it to CH.

 

[aa9511]

He can't win.

If he whispers, he should be close enough to tell she isn't there.

If it is a soft tone, she should have responded in some way.

I think the soft tone is the lesser of two evils for him and thus why he changed his story.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

 

[jay-jay]

I still don't understand why the jeans are there in the first place. And wouldn't it be relatively easy to determine if they are Reeva's jeans or not? If they are not Reeva's jeans, what are they doing there?

.. as Nel keep saying .. we'll get there .. we'll get there .. ;-)

 

[Mr Fossil]

I also need to listen to that bit again where OP is tesifying about when he 'realised it could be Reeva' .. then checked the bed from the bathroom side, then got off the bed on the balcony side .. then I'm sure he said he checked the floor with his hands before checking the curtains .. but then later on he said he went straight to check the curtains after having checked the bed, and that he only checked along the side of the bed by walking along it! I swear that is what he said! I need to go back and verify ..

He definitely said this

ETA Groping around the bed, the floor and curtains strikes me as a very strange way to determine if someone is in a room when you have the option of turning the light on and speaking to them!

 

[G.bng]

bbm

Why is Oscar backtracking on the "whispering"?? Why is he lying about it now and saying he didn't whisper? I don't understand why he continues to be stubborn over things that he doesn't really even need to lie about?

I posted about this previously so you can read my explanation as to why he could be backtracking which you can read by clicking the following link to my post (especially relevant to your question the 2nd paragraph):

Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 24 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

jmo

 

[kittychi]

Thank you.

I am troubled by this as someone who believes OP is guilty of murder.

Based on the prosecution's witnesses, the fatal gunshots were at approximately 3:15 (when the screaming stopped).

OP made 3 calls (Stander, Netcare, Baba) and received 1 call between 3:19 a.m. to 3:22 a.m.

If Baba came into the house at 3:26 a.m. that doesn't leave much time for OP to break down the toilet door.

I am discounting the running back and forth to scream for help and to put on his prosthetics.

Given the above events, even if we assume he was already on prosthetics, he had only a few minutes on either side of the phone calls to break down the door, open it and retrieve Reeva.

Its still possible, but timeframe is extremely tight.

Edit: I'd have to hypothesise that OP already had the cricket bat on him and had already tried to break down the door (that would save time and may also explain the bangs that woke the Stipps)

BBM: This is why IMO he broke the door first.

Don't forget too that he claims to have sat with her body for 'he doesn't know how long.'

 

[shane13]

OP made a mistake on Fri aswell. Earlier on in the day he said he spoke to Reeva quietly to tell her to "get down and call the police".
Later on in the day when Nel was interogating him about what he said to Reeva when he thought there was an intruder in the house he slipped and said "i shouted at Reeva...."

It pissed me off on Friday coz Nel didnt pick him up on it and also I couldnt post it here as Id just joined.

Idk but OP could of been confused about the line of questioning. I dont think he was but he definitely slipped up imv.

You are right Benn.
But I have picked up from the moment Nel Xed him, that Oscar is slipping up almost all the time. He actually sometimes gives double answers in the same sentence. I posted that a few days ago.

Sometimes it is subtle and you can easily miss it. And Nelli s onto OP's (for the moment I will call it strangeness},and gives a little smile each time Oscar gives something away. More to come.

 

[G.bng]

I too was surprised when the state rested so quickly , thinking is this all there is. Wasn't impressed at all.

Seems like just the opposite of our trials where the state lays out the case and the defense just has to lay the groundwork for reason doubt the in state's case.

The state can't have a case more than what OP explained in his BH affidavit and that's what Nel stated in his opening statement as he never spoke with police or the PT. They can't invent a case so as Nel stated on openings, they don't believe OP's version because to them it doesn't add up so they basically put it to a judge to work out.