Trial Discussion Thread #29

[molly333]

BIB. Below is the testimony about the kicking. Mr. Nel is going to state in closing that the kicking and bat strikes were not because OP wanted to break open the door. No, they were before the gunshots, before the murder, they were left because OP hit the door two times and kicked the door to scare an already terrified and trapped victim.

Vermuelen: That would also be very difficult to say, and I doubt one would be able to say that the kicking happened before or after the shots M'Lady.

Nel: Mr Roux put to you that the only reason why the accused would have kicked the door was to open it- remember that - get it open because it was locked.

Vermeulen: Yes ..

Nel: Could there be other reasons?

Vermeulen: I guess if we say other reasons, it might ...

Nel: Let us speculate, you're asked to speculate - could it have been to scare someone? Is it possible?

Vermeulen: If we speculate, it's possible.. (chuckle). We also cannot prove that that mark was caused during the unfortunate incident.

Key Word: SPECULATE

Who asks an expert witness to speculate?

ans: Someone who doesn't have evidence.

 

[Onlyamum]

Is is possible that he kicked the door first? which in turn loosed the panel, from which he may or may not be able to see Reeva, then the gun shots then the bat for the purpose of finishing off the opening of the panel before he pried it off??

No idea, just throwing it out there as the kicks might be loud too?

The cricket bat may not have been as loud as they say depending how he used it? I know there were marks but I am not familiar with the wood type and how hard it would have to hit the door to make those marks.

However back to Mr Bean, he said that the kicks would have to be very forceful in order to have the varnish come off the door

 

[molly333]

It's still really surprising to me. Especially if there were hourly checks and there had been loud arguing going on for an hour earlier in the evening.
If the real estate listings are correct, the entire community is 88 acres (.14 of a mile) Not that big. And a lot of the lots were undeveloped at the time. You would think sound would carry a great deal. I live in a similarly sized neighborhood with houses fairly close together like those in the photos. I've posted before, I can hear my neighbor's alarm clock lol

Maybe they are trained to ignore domestic disputes :::shrug::::

I counted 5 other houses in this picture that we have yet to hear from and they were all closer than the witnesses we have heard from, including the houses on either side of OP.

We can see why Stipps had such a good earwitness, since there are no houses between them and OP, simply a field separating them. It also shows why the gun and bat would have carried well across the field, and why the experiments in the open area are valid. It recreates the conditions under which they were heard by Stipps.

Question: were there houses on either side of Stipps at the time?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/211391077/CSI-Oscar-Pistorius

 

[delilah]

Wow! Thanks for your thumbnail. Not only does it show the window light, but unless that is a giant standing at the window, it shows how easily a person might be seen walking by. If on his stumps, Oscar would probably be a bit shorter, but not that much (I believe he would only be shorter by the length of one of our poster's hands).

I'm just catching up on Dixon. I'm so glad Nel nailed him on the photo of the kneeling man in front of the bathroom window. As soon as I saw that photo I couldn't believe the defence were going to use it. OP is 5' something on his stumps - 5'2" I believe, which is my height in my bare feet. I know that's short, but there aren't many windows I can't see out of LOL. If the bottom of the bathroom window frame is, I believe, 43" above the floor, that's just above waist high on me.

To then argue it was just a representation of someone standing in the window, and that he wasn't trying to mislead the court, means Dixon is either lying or he's a complete muppet. How Roux didn't realise that Nel would chew Dixon up and spit him out over that, I don't know.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think his wailing was the point when we were all supposed to say "oh I see, his screaming and crying DOES sound like a woman"! Sadly for him, it didn't

Roux and OP said that they will provide this evidence it will be an important part of the defence? By already saying that they will provide evidence of OP screaming they have confirmed the existence of screaming during the shooting .
If they fail on this they leave the defence even more weakened than it is already.
It is very telling that they did not produce any such recording to the witnesses that actually testified a woman was screaming ,therefore whatever he does present might still not be what they all heard and therefore leave doubt.
For this reason I will be listening very carefully .

 

[molly333]

Is is possible that he kicked the door first? which in turn loosed the panel, from which he may or may not be able to see Reeva, then the gun shots then the bat for the purpose of finishing off the opening of the panel before he pried it off??

No idea, just throwing it out there as the kicks might be loud too?

The cricket bat may not have been as loud as they say depending how he used it? I know there were marks but I am not familiar with the wood type and how hard it would have to hit the door to make those marks.

However back to Mr Bean, he said that the kicks would have to be very forceful in order to have the varnish come off the door

The witness heard the series of two sets of 'gunshots' happening together.

So bang bang bang bang. Two sets of bangs. Not a random series of noises.

 

[DebinGA]

....
To then argue it was just a representation of someone standing in the window, and that he wasn't trying to mislead the court, means Dixon is either lying or he's a complete muppet. How Roux didn't realise that Nel would chew Dixon up and spit him out over that, I don't know.

That's a very interesting point. People are blaming Dixon, but I put all the blame on Roux who in essence vouched for his credentials and findings by putting him up there.

 

[Plumeria5]

Big mistake Reeva prob. made was telling him she was calling (or going to call) the police. (Then again how could she know just what he was capable of?)

And maybe he was there right on top of her, so to speak, that last hour making it difficult for her to call, and the bedroom door was locked preventing her from leaving, which IMO she prob wanted to do from the beginning of that last full hour of her life.

BBM I think this scenario makes the most sense...furious that she threatened to call the police. His image...that was and is all that is important
to him.

 

[soozieqtips]

I counted 5 other houses in this picture that we have yet to hear from and they were all closer than the witnesses we have heard from, including the houses on either side of OP.

We can see why Stipps had such a good earwitness, since there are no houses between them and OP, simply a field separating them. It also shows why the gun and bat would have carried well across the field, and why the experiments in the open area are valid. It recreates the conditions under which they were heard by Stipps.

Question: were there houses on either side of Stipps at the time?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/211391077/CSI-Oscar-Pistorius

BBM - no it doesn't recreate the conditions at all. The bat and gun were used within an enclosed building. Just about the opposite conditions of 'open air'. If OP had been shooting out of an open window... but he wasn't. And I don't think the Judge considered Dixon's 'sound' experiments very sound at all.

 

[Viper]

The witness heard the series of two sets of 'gunshots' happening together.

So bang bang bang bang. Two sets of bangs. Not a random series of noises.

Yes, we know. But are you aware that the two sets of bangs, 3-4 bangs per set, occurred 17 minutes apart?

If your theory is that the first set of bangs was the gunshots killing Reeva at 3:00, then what is your theory about what OP was doing all of that time, before the second set of bangs at 3:17, and finally calling Stander 19 minutes after he murdered Reeva at 3:19?

 

[Viper]

One of the first things that struck me when OP took to the stand he said "I am taking responsibility, I have put my life on hold for the last year to come here and defend myself"

Narcissist much, Mr. Pistorius?

 

[Plumeria5]

One of the first things that struck me when OP took to the stand he said "I am taking responsibility, I have put my life on hold for the last year to come here and defend myself"

Narcissist much, Mr. Pistorius?

Exactly, Viper.
BBM 4 pronouns about self in two sentences. I fail to see him mention that Reeva's life was "put on hold" actually "stifled" would be more accurate.

 

[Freya1977]

Has anyone seen this 'map' before? It is rather different from the one we have had posted already. It makes more sense if this is really where Van Der Merwe lives. It also makes clearer where the Burgers live and how there were no intervening houses to block noise at the time.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/211391077/CSI-Oscar-Pistorius

I don't think that map is correct. Van De Merwe lives across the street and up three houses. In her testimony there was a photo showing her view to Oscar's house and it doesn't fit with that map.

The Burger/Johnson house is also a bit closer, pretty much in line with the Stipps if you draw a straight line along from the Stipps place.



Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

 

[DebinGA]

One of the first things that struck me when OP took to the stand he said "I am taking responsibility, I have put my life on hold for the last year to come here and defend myself"

Narcissist much, Mr. Pistorius?

Wow. No surprise that OP would think that way, but it's astounding that Roux hadn't made clear to him how offensive that would sound to others.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BBM I think this scenario makes the most sense...furious that she threatened to call the police. His image...that was and is all that is important
to him.

There are several things that I have no trouble at all in believing from OP's testimony .
That someone said call the police ie Reeva I'll call the police
That someone said get out of my house ie Op to Reeva get out of my house
That someone shouted help help help ie Reeva pleading for assistance

Also i have no doubt that someone slammed the toilet door shut ie Reeva

Before someone says where is the evidence ? I don't need evidence to form a personal opinion but will be happy to reconsider these views after listening to totally independent witness testimony to the contrary

 

[james83]

One of the first things that struck me when OP took to the stand he said "I am taking responsibility, I have put my life on hold for the last year to come here and defend myself"

Narcissist much, Mr. Pistorius?

"I will try not to lie m'lady".

 

[Karmady]

BBM - no it doesn't recreate the conditions at all. The bat and gun were used within an enclosed building. Just about the opposite conditions of 'open air'. If OP had been shooting out of an open window... but he wasn't. And I don't think the Judge considered Dixon's 'sound' experiments very sound at all.

I don't think it really matters though. There's no dispute that there were two sets of sounds and only one of the sets was gunshots. The witnesses can't distinguish between the two - and, iirc, at least one specifically thought that both sets were gun shots. There are marks on the door thought to have been made by the bat. So really, what's left to prove by "expert" testimony? It's clear that one set of sounds was gunshots and the other sounded like gun shots and were likely made by bat absent any other possible source. If they sound alike it's anyone's guess which came first except to the extent that there's OTHER evidence of order. Like the testimony about which came first based on the door itself. I don't think I'm missing anything there, or am I? And I don't think either side has given another possible source, but could stand corrected on that since I'm not able to watch the trial. jmo

 

[screecher]

Hmm any guesses as to what this display of body language says?

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-16-pistorius-trial-week-6-day-3/

Tightly clenched jaw, narrowed stare...


Anger. Intense anger. A killing intense anger.

 

[james83]

One of the first things that struck me when OP took to the stand he said "I am taking responsibility, I have put my life on hold for the last year to come here and defend myself"

Narcissist much, Mr. Pistorius?

Worth remembering aswell that less than a month after the incident he appealed the decision made at the bail hearing to take his passport of him because he needs it to compete overseas

 

[fox1lady]

Roux has to be a very busy guy right now....if his body language during the cross of OP and Dixon is any indicator this is clearly not going as expected. He will probably go with two or three of his top people who can withstand cross and try to put the "version" back into something that has a chance of convincing the judge to be sympathetic to Oscar...ie believe his version. No question Nell will be ready for each and every one that Roux puts up and I also believe Nell has some surprises ready for the court.

I heard an attorney (Martin Hood) being asked that question regarding the two week break and if it would make any difference to the case answer that if he were defending OP he would be doing one of two things...

1. Reconsidering his witnesses and only putting the minimum number on the stand to avoid a repetition of Dixon ...

2. Reconsidering the not guilty plea... negotiate with PT to come to some sort of arrangement!!!