Trial Discussion Thread #30

[jay-jay]

I will agree that she should have left Oscar right then and there.

People don't though, do they .. and if you've been reading through these threads, and learned about domestic abuse from some of the many posts on it, you will understand why they don't.

 

[minor4th]

Has anyone seen this video? It is of OP and S. Taylor in Seychelles.

"After Oscar Pistorius' epic performance in both the Olympics and Paralympics Top Billing thought that there was no better treat than a wonderful holiday for him to relax and reflect back on his amazing achievements. Join us as we explore the idyllic setting of the Seychelles with Oscar and his beautiful friend Samantha Taylor in true Top Billing style."

Oscar Pistorius and girlfriend in Seychelles (FULL INSERT) - YouTube

That was interesting, and I had not seen it before. I am impressed with how natural his prosthetics look!

 

[minor4th]

minor, can you give us the name of the accused in that case please. My computer is not letting me look at the link you posted. Thanks.

sixtus nhlanhla mkhize

Here is another link that is not a pdf

http://www.saflii.org/cgi-bin/disp.pl?file=za/cases/ZASCA/2014/52.html

 

[TipDog]

His displays of emotion are not made to show that he is grieving the love of his life. They are to show his remorse for having killed Reeva and because he must revisit those horrific moments over and again, and because he is being forced to face and take responsibility for killing Reeva.

Not a single one of us really know whether it's remorse for Reeva or just remorse for himself, a mixture of the two, or all an act.

Any one of this conclusions could be the truth.

 

[BritsKate]

Interesting case that came out in SA last week on putative self defence and culpable homicide:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2014/52.pdf

In this case the accused was initially convicted of murder, despite his claim of putative self defense. The appeals court overturned the conviction and convicted him instead of culpable homicide because the accused shot 3 times when 1 shot would have been enough to stop what he perceived to be an attack.

We were discussing that yesterday. Cape Town Crim. was pointing out, while it's the latest in case law, Oscar's case is different in that there was no contact between the accused and a perceived aggressor. I found it interesting so here's Cape Town's post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30

 

[minor4th]

We were discussing that yesterday. Cape Town Crim. was pointing out, while it's the latest in case law, Oscar's case is different in that there was no contact between the accused and a perceived aggressor. I found it interesting so here's Cape Town's post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30

Yes, of course there are differences. But the first inquiry is whether Oscar honestly believed there was an intruder behind the door. And there are some similarities in the case as well.

 

[TipDog]

I'm not so sure about that, TD .. the eligibility tests for disability benefits in the UK (incapacity benefit, disability living allowance, etc), as far as I'm aware, are dependent on the person having restricted mobility, which OP doesn't have when he has his p.legs on. He can walk (and doesn't get out of puff while walking, due to any other health conditions such as a heart probs), he can run, he can drive, he can wash/dress himself, use the toilet himself, etc <<-- you have to be unable to do quite a few of those things in order to qualify, and seeing as he leads a perfectly normal life with his p.legs, I very much doubt that he would.

In America, he'd be given roughly $800-1,200/month in disability aid and all of his medical costs would be covered for life.

I have two members of my family on disability. One is completely mobile, goes shopping, has friends and goes to church, but can't hold down a job with any kind stress (mental disability). The other has back issues (some disease that softens the spine to jelly over time), so often very limited mobility.

Both live in separate states, so their DBs are slightly different, but not by much.

It's pretty easy here to argue incapacity for any number of illnesses/injuries/handicaps and get disability.

 

[weeeva]

The point that I was making certainly fits with your perception that people with a mental illness don't "bang on about it". That's what I was getting at. That's why it is particularly striking when people use their diagnosis very frequently and publically - often not to get help, but for a range of other reasons.

People with serious mental illness are stigmatised and to mention that you have an illness such as schizophrenia is often used against you. Whether we like it or not, some diagnoses are regarded as much more socially acceptable than others - eg PTSD and Bipolar. Courageous soldiers and heroes can have PTSD. Many people can real off a list of Celebrities including movie stars who have had or have Bipolar. How often do we hear of celebrities having schizophrenia?The veracity of such diagnostic categories would be very difficult to asses. Case studies have limited applicability. IMO research funds are best spent on improving the health and quality of life of people with a mental illness.

The reason you seldom hear of a celebrity having schizophrenia, is because of the nature of the illness. How many people with schizophrenia would be well enough to ever become a celebrity or movie star in the first place?

 

[fox1lady]

Has anyone seen this video? It is of OP and S. Taylor in Seychelles.

"After Oscar Pistorius' epic performance in both the Olympics and Paralympics Top Billing thought that there was no better treat than a wonderful holiday for him to relax and reflect back on his amazing achievements. Join us as we explore the idyllic setting of the Seychelles with Oscar and his beautiful friend Samantha Taylor in true Top Billing style."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4GYXxz1b58"]Oscar Pistorius and girlfriend in Seychelles (FULL INSERT) - YouTube[/url]

Following on from that I wanted to see how long after that he started dating Reeva. Came across this article but what was very interesting was the comments, particularly one by George Xander von Berg, these were dated November 2012... from what I read along the lines in his posts is that he is aware of Oscar assaulting another of his ex girlfriends.

"http://www.channel24.co.za/News/Local/Ex-girlfriend-slams-Oscar-Pistorius-20121111

 

[TorisMom003]

Yes, of course there are differences. But the first inquiry is whether Oscar honestly believed there was an intruder behind the door. And there are some similarities in the case as well.

What is similar other than the guns both being parabellums (sp?)? OP was not being attacked, was not helping someone that was being attacked, was not even looking at the "intruder" as that "intruder" was behind a closed door, never heard that "intruder" say let's kill him or something to that effect, did not have the "intruder" coming at him. So how in the world can the two cases be similar?

 

[minor4th]

What is similar other than the guns both being parabellums (sp?)? OP was not being attacked, was not helping someone that was being attacked, was not even looking at the "intruder" as that "intruder" was behind a closed door, never heard that "intruder" say let's kill him or something to that effect, did not have the "intruder" coming at him. So how in the world can the two cases be similar?

They both shot multiple times instead of just once.

They both claimed they feared for their lives when there was actually no threat.

 

[weeeva]

Would Oscar need to disclose any mental illness when applying for new firearm licenses?

I don't know how he will manage if he is not sent to prison. He won't be able to arm himself, that's for sure. So he will be even more paranoid than ever. When someone has such a deep rooted fear as he professes to have I doubt if that fear would just vanish.

 

[patCee]

Interesting case that came out in SA last week on putative self defence and culpable homicide:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2014/52.pdf

In this case the accused was initially convicted of murder, despite his claim of putative self defense. The appeals court overturned the conviction and convicted him instead of culpable homicide because the accused shot 3 times when 1 shot would have been enough to stop what he perceived to be an attack.

Interesting, especially this part,

He testified further
that, given the circumstances the appellant could not have had time to reflect
on his actions once he started to shoot. According to Steyl, a Z88 9mm
Parabellum expels bullets in rapid succession. Once the trigger is pressed,
the pistol will fire after which the recoil operation automatically extracts, ejects 5
and reloads the chamber until all rounds are fired.
1
Thus the appellant could
not have paused in between the shots to deliberately and intentionally shoot
the deceased.

BBM

Is this gun similar or the same as the one used by OP. I noted the part in bold where no pause was possible between shots.

 

[TorisMom003]

They both shot multiple times instead of just once.

They both claimed they feared for their lives when there was actually no threat.

From what I read, the second one that you posted, the other case was most definitely because of a threat. He shot the man because he was coming towards him threatening to hurt/kill him.

ETA: From your link,

[6] Mbanjwa testified that around 1h30 he informed the group that he was closing up as it was late, and requested them to finish drinking. The deceased and his party refused to leave. A scuffle broke out between Dennis and the security guard. Dennis manhandled the security guard and shunted him out of the bar, but the security guard re-entered the bar. The deceased and Dennis started to hit the security guard with fists and kicked him. The appellant intervened by pulling the security guard away. The two assailants turned on the appellant and assaulted him with fists and kicked him repeatedly until he fell to the floor. Mbanjwa intervened. The appellant then managed to rise to his feet and retreated towards the pool table but was pursued by the assailants. As he, Mbanjwa, turned his back on them to get behind the bar counter, he heard several gun shots. He turned only to see the appellant shooting at his assailants. The deceased was struck by the bullets, stumbled out of the bar and fell outside the bar where he was certified dead by the paramedics some three hours later.

and

[8] The appellant testified that the deceased and his group found him at the bar. A scuffle erupted between Dennis and the security guard on duty. He intervened. The deceased and Dennis turned on him and assaulted him severely. Whilst he was on the floor the deceased approached him, with his hand in his pocket, uttering the words ‘let us kill this *advertiser censored*’. As he got up from the floor, with the deceased more or less ten metres from him, he pulled out his firearm and shot the deceased in quick succession until the latter turned around and fled out of the bar. As he was in a state of shock, confusion and drunkenness he fled the scene. Later, he handed himself over to the police at the local police station. His version was supported in all its material details by Mbanjwa.

 

[crasshopper]

Crasshopper, being a physician, can you shed some light on the arterial spray and what that means in terms of the timing of events?

Sorry if you have already spoken about this. I have not read all posts.

Thank you Minor No worries.

My recollection from time in the medical examiner's office was that arterial spurts or spray cannot occur after the heart stops beating. This is a distinguishing factor in analysis determining pre and post mortem injuries. A good example was the lack of bleeding in Travis' brain along the bullet trajectory, where there was simply contusion/bruising and tissue destruction.

This is highly reliable with stab wounds where the lack of arterial spray (unless the body's been moved) indicates a post mortem wound.

As I stated before, no heartbeat, no arterial spurt. With brainstem injury or death the vasomotor tone immediately relaxes and the blood volume pools there. You don't have enough blood to fill your entire network of vessels. As you know, when you're alive your body shunts flow differentially to the areas in most need.

Any bleeding after brain stem injury or death from small and medium vessels would run out like a hose on little more than a trickle. Larger vessels like the jugular veins would empty a little more substantially in the case of a neck wound or stab. Even the aorta, the largest "artery," would not give one last " spurt."

As I'm not a pathologist and don't subscribe to their journals, if possible, it is going to take some time to find a concise reference.


Hope that helps

 

[jay-jay]

I am stating what Oscar's defense is arguing. It has not been determined that Oscar is lying about his knowledge of Reeva's whereabouts and that he with premeditation gunned her down in the toilet.

Many have interpreted that to be the scenario, that does not make it the undisputed factual truth.

Only because they've followed the case right from the beginning and actually listened to all the testimonies and cross examinations, read all the documents (OP's bail statement, PE, etc), reviewed all the crime scene photos, and put everything together, picked up on all the glaring holes and inconsistencies, and found that the whole thing, altogether, is absolutely ludicrous (to borrow natashya's word for it). People aren't just saying this on a whim because they 'feel it in their waters', they are making an educated 'guess' on it based on everything that has been presented to them.

 

[minor4th]

Thank you Minor No worries.

My recollection from time in the medical examiner's office was that arterial spurts or spray cannot occur after the heart stops beating. This is a distinguishing factor in analysis determining pre and post mortem injuries. A good example was the lack of bleeding in Travis' brain along the bullet trajectory, where there was simply contusion/bruising and tissue destruction.

This is highly reliable with stab wounds where the lack of arterial spray (unless the body's been moved) indicates a post mortem wound.

As I stated before, no heartbeat, no arterial spurt. With brainstem injury or death the vasomotor tone immediately relaxes and the blood volume pools there. You don't have enough blood to fill your entire network of vessels. As you know, when you're alive your body shunts flow differentially to the areas in most need.

Any bleeding after brain stem injury or death from small and medium vessels would run out like a hose on little more than a trickle. Larger vessels like the jugular veins would empty a little more substantially in the case of a neck wound or stab. Even the aorta, the largest "artery," would not give one last " spurt."

As I'm not a pathologist and don't subscribe to their journals, if possible, it is going to take some time to find a concise reference.


Hope that helps

So, does it tell you anything about how long ago Reeva was shot if there was arterial spurt when she was being carried down the stairs?

 

[minor4th]

Interesting, especially this part,



BBM

Is this gun similar or the same as the one used by OP. I noted the part in bold where no pause was possible between shots.

I think the court rejected that argument about not being able to pause. I guess it is a similar or the same kind of gun used by OP

 

[Mme Butterfly]

I want to thank Mme Butterfly and Cape Town Crim for their kind words of praise.
In your honor, I release here the full logic of the 5th phone below. I have written more lengthily on this 11 months ago elsewhere, and copyrighted this and much more at that time…

The Fifth Phone:
The Power of Logic ©Shane13 2013, 2014

First let me say again that this is a form of speculation, and no proof or certainty can be involved by this use of logic. As with a trial you each have to ‘rule’ whether it is likely true within certain bounds.

Follow the steps.

1. Taking evidence from a crime scene is a serious crime itself. It’s punishable by lengthy jail time if caught. Punishable also by disbarment if an atty does it.
2. Whoever took the 5th Phone likely knew that it was a crime with serious jail time a possible result if prosecuted. So why risk it; why take the 5th Phone?
3. Because they had to!
4. Why did they have to?
5. Because it would be worse for them if they did not!
6. What do I mean here? The person or persons who took the 5th phone had already known that they committed a more serious crime, and so faced a more serious charge if they did NOT take the 5th phone which revealed their earlier crime.
7. What could their earlier crime be? Perhaps Oscar called early on and described his assault on Reeva, or maybe she was shot once and there was a long pause. Note a year ago MSM reported a 10-17 minute gap between the 1st and last 3 shots from witnesses. Maybe there was more truth then than now?
8. Oscar may have early on called for advice to someone who then advised him horrifically that he could go to jail for a long time, if there was a living witness. Get it?
9. Anyone (say a sibling or atty) would have to race over there and get the 5th phone because its data records when they were called and possibly even their horrific advice.
10. Those who took the 5th phone had to know that they would likely get away with the crime, because of the deep nature of things.
11. So far borne out by the lack of a criminal charge or even the ordering of an investigation by Pros. and 3 judges.
12. Those in control always think that the public needs a scapegoat so W.O. Hilton Botha—who actually informed the world of crime scene theft a year ago—is made the public lapdog so as to divert away from those who took and gave the 5th phone to OIDT—Oscar’s inital defense team. One of whom has remained on with OP’s DT.
13. Once again this is logic and speculation. But now you know why the 5th phone was illegally taken and held for16 days. With—as I have proclaimed—the high probability that its data was altered a year ago. With Pros and judge going along with its data entered into trial, when it should have been disallowed as there is zero chain of custody.
14. The mention/stipulation on commencement of trial by Nel and then Roux, on March 25, and the subsequent excision of the first few minutes of all youtube videos of session 1, shows you how deep and how rotten this one runs. See if any other OP trial day’s Session 1 on youtube starts in mid-testimony of a witness. All others start with everyone standing as the Judge walks in.
15. And now you know why the guilty party had to take the 5th phone from the crime scene! ©2013 Shane13

ETA: Implicit in this is also the matter of proving Oscar's guilt as well.

Wow wow wow!!! Shane, you sure are a deep thinker - You should be receiving an award for Investigative Journalism!!! - You are 'one-of-a-kind' type of detective with the ability to x-ray the situation.

 

[crasshopper]

CORRECTION it takes a "little while" to lose the vasomotor tone. I will try to research how long.

There was definitely arterial spraying that occured post guillotine but we don't know for how long. I would guess that was more like a high pressure spray than pulsatile.