Trial Discussion Thread #31

[sleuth-d-]

BBM

Are you saying I said that the accused is a liar?

nel commented ... how could duvet be 'repositioned' under jeans? op/roux didn't contest this.

op agreed:
the jeans were in the correct position.
the jeans were on top of the duvet. therefore the duvet is in the correct position too and didn't move.

you are saying the duvet was moved...

 

[kittychi]

I'll fold, you can keep your cyber-bucks as it also looks very possible to me.

If not, it certainly doesn't look like it's been in the middle of any kind of struggle or panic.

IMO It shows that they likely never went to bed, that it was placed there. It could have been used as a yoga mat by Reeva, they could have sat there drinking their coffee or tea, etc.

 

[patCee]

I thought OP went to the police station first and went to the medical centre much later, i.e. the afternoon of the next day. No?

I'll bow to your better memory, I just remembered him being taken to the medical centre by an officer who said he was a friend of the family, and some thought this was an issue as he was seemingly 'rescued' from the scene.

Reading your post has reminded me that he wasn't tested for drugs/alcohol for many hours later, so I think you are correct. Thanks.

 

[nastasya]

Thanks for the response. Re your first point I do think they will carry much weight so we'll just have to wait and see on that one.

Re the downplaying of OP's ability to accurately recall, he was ADAMANT that the duvet was on the bed. He had to be, or else how did he avoid becoming entangled in it when he ran out on to the balcony? So it was by no means a case of a hazy memory: he was arguing with Nel over these things. Ervery change he made was needed to make his version possible, That's possible, not probable. So if that's where the fan and duvet were when the investigators first walked in then OP and his 'version' is gone on those two little things alone. OP got visibly upset when being pressed on all this. I think he may have cried. So IMO calling them 'little things' underplays their threat to OP - he certainly seemed to realise how much they matter.

OP's entire defense hinges on proving the police moved these items.

Otherwise his version is physically impossible. It's all a grand lie.

 

[kittychi]

At this point it looks to me that neither side has proved its theory beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's assume that the judge agrees with me. My question is what are the SA laws in this regard.
For example, if the judge rules as above, and then moves to the next question, whether OP was justified in shooting at the presumed intruder. If the judge decides that he was not justified to shoot at an intruder, what is the crime committed? Is that murder or culpable homicide? Also, if it is culpable homicide (as above), what would likely jail time be?

I believe it will come down to the credibility of the main witness, OP. If the judge sees the same inconsistencies that we have discussed in the bail affi, the trial statement and his testimony, she cannot trust anything that he says is true. From there, she wonders why he would not be truthful. From there....

:moo:

 

[screecher]

The Colonel did in fact practically admit that the police stole that watch. He ordered that all officers and their cars be searched to try to recover the watch. I'm not sure whether anyone searched him though, or Botha either. And he did apologize to OP and advised him to file a police report about the theft.

As a side note, I would really love to know who stole the freakin' watch, right there in the middle of a murder scene with cops everywhere! That took cojones, or authority! :smile: LOL

This Colonel came across as angry at the police for incompetency, faulting the one officer that handled the gun without gloves, instead of trying to deflect from its importance or something similar. He made fun of Botha too, citing that Botha's claims in an interview about finding OP wearing a bloody t-shirt we false. When asked about the bloody t-shirt he replied, "What shirt? There was no shirt." He claims that when he arrived OP was not wearing any top.

So he is not all on board with the state, IMO.

IMO, he was/is saving/covering his own behind. The illusion and/or reality of power, makes one think/do things that would never be questioned by the minions.

 

[nastasya]

I did see that portion of the testimony. I wasn't convinced.

I'd like to look under that duvet, please.

Why not look on top of the duvet where you will find the jeans that OP testified to dropping immediately before he shot and killed Reeva.

 

[whiterum]

The problem with all of your assessments is they reflect only your imagination and not the reality of what happened.

The photographs are sequential. The police on the scene testified that when they got to the room the fan was blocking the door and the duvet was beside the fan. The jeans were beside the duvet and the corner of the jeans was overlapping the edge of the duvet.

In every one of OP's versions he claims he dropped the jeans on the floor and the duvet was on the bed, and he ran back and forth to the deck directly through the spot where the fan was positioned.

There was also blood on he carpet beside the duvet, and blood on the duvet.

So what surprises or doesn't surprise you has no relevance. The facts of the case have relevance.

Maybe that's what's putting you in a bad mood. :dunno:

Reminds me of the old saying 'oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive'. Basically lies create more lies and masking lies with more lies creates an ever more complex arrangement of false hoods. On the stand under questioning he tore his own version/s to shreds because it was not the truth but a lie.

 

[steveml]

nel commented ... how could duvet be 'repositioned' under jeans? op/roux didn't contest this.

op agreed:
the jeans were in the correct position.
the jeans were on top of the duvet. therefore the duvet is in the correct position too and didn't move.

you are saying the duvet was moved...

OP indicated that the duvet had been moved. It's not his position to determine how or why the jeans ended up on top of the duvet.
This will be brought into play by the DT, if they think it's appropriate.

The above conclusion that nothing has been moved would be more appropriate if we were at the summing up stage of the trial. There are many things that Roux hasn't contested yet, as he's yet to call the remaining witnesses.

 

[Viper]

Why is it important for you to make stuff up in defense of an admitted killer?

There is no evidence of any blood under the duvet. None.

Zero.

The blood is on top of the duvet in a direct line that ends up on the carpeting beside the blood on the duvet.

BIB. Thanks for that. But it is still very confusing because when the police opened the duvet they found blood there too. Was the blood inside drops or smears from a hand? I don't remember. And on the watch box, it had blood on the top of the box and inside too. It seems that OP moved those two items when his hands were bloody, but that is just a guess.

If you can explain the duvet having blood both on the top and inside that would be great. TIA

 

[steveml]

IMO It shows that they likely never went to bed, that it was placed there. It could have been used as a yoga mat by Reeva, they could have sat there drinking their coffee or tea, etc.

It's quite possible Reeva used it for her yoga. I'm not sure how it indicates that they never went to bed though.

 

[Interested Bystander]

The Judges live there themselves. I'm sure they know how dangerous the place is. Seven times the murder rate of the USA.

Police investigators steal your personal property while investigating the crime scene.

Allegations of cover-ups and framing.

All they have to believe is that it was reasonably possibly true that he believed the same thing they know to be true from their own experience.

I don't think anyone is going to think OP lived in fear in his home. He sleeps with his balcony windows open, as do many residents, and there hasn't even been a petty theft on the estate since 2011. You are quoting figures totally irrelevant to OP's lifestyle in SA. The only trouble on his estate is that for which he is totally responsible.

 

[nastasya]

The duvet's position needs some careful consideration.

As you can see from the attached picture, the duvet is quite flat and is quite some distance away from the bed. Pull a duvet off a bed aggressively and it doesn't land like this. Get out of bed by pulling the duvet swiftly to one side, again it doesn't land like this. Kick a duvet off the end of the bed, again it doesn't land like this.

In the photograph the duvet is not in a natural position at all, it is too wide and square to have just landed there. You can try this simple experiment for yourselves at home.


Link

Yes, you're right. Looks to me like the bed was never slept in that night.

The duvet doesn't match any of OP's versions of what happened.

It's not on the bed, where you would expect it to be according to OP. It's not pushed off to the side or kicked on the floor by Reeva getting out of bed.

It would have been in the way when OP went to take the fans out and run out screaming onto the deck.

After careful consideration, I conclude that the only explanation is OP is lying to cover up the intentional murder he committed so he doesn't spend the rest of his life in prison.

 

[soozieqtips]

I don't think anyone is going to think OP lived in fear in his home. He sleeps with his balcony windows open, as do many residents, and there hasn't even been a petty theft on the estate since 2011. You are quoting figures totally irrelevant to OP's lifestyle in SA. The only trouble on his estate is that for which he is totally responsible.

BBM - ironic isn't it?

 

[kittychi]

It's quite possible Reeva used it for her yoga. I'm not sure how it indicates that they never went to bed though.

It indicates they never went to bed because it stayed on the floor IMO. Even on a hot night, it likely was across the foot of the bed IF they ever went to bed. Which IMO they did not.

 

[Emz73]

Why not look on top of the duvet where you will find the jeans that OP testified to dropping immediately before he shot and killed Reeva.

Why's that duvet got metal ring in it? Looks like a curtain.

 

[Emz73]

It indicates they never went to bed because it stayed on the floor IMO. Even on a hot night, it likely was across the foot of the bed IF they ever went to bed. Which IMO they did not.

Your idea of doing yoga on it was a good one!

 

[nastasya]

I want to thank those of you who are now taking up the mantle!

It’s been a frustrating year since I’ first tried to alert the world—here and elsewhere—of the importance of the crime scene removal of the 5th phone. i have possibly put myself at risk with doing this...

I’ve variously endured being ignored, scorned or having general platitudes bandied about.
So it is heartwarming to read some of you stating how important that is and realizing the implications. But please no one put words in my mouth. I never said its data was wiped clean, only that it is highly likely its data has been altered.

Otherwise why would OP’s DT hold on to it for16 days?
And again please do not lose sight of my harping also on how the first few minutes of March 25 Session 1 have been excised from all youtubes. It begins with the witness in mid-sentence and has removed Nel and Roux “stipulating” about the16 days—with judge going along.

Standard jurisprudence for hundreds of years would have made it inadmissible as it has zero chain of custody.

Any conversations and timelines used in trial should not be considered. My piece on the “Logic of the removal of the 5th phone” details why it had to be taken.

I trust you have all read that?? Or I can repost.

Again my heartfelt thanks to those of you who now appreciate the importance of the crime scene removal of the fifth phone and the possible implications and consequences.

Keep in mind that WhatsApp only stores 7 days worth of messages locally on the phone.

Do we even know if it was the same phone?

The real insight here is they gave the phone back. The only reason to give the phone back was in the hope that the lack of evidence on the phone would somehow exonerate OP.

Yes, the 5th phone is a smoking gun. Nobody wants to talk about the 5th phone.

 

[kittychi]

I'm very sad to see that TrueDetective is no longer with us.

I will miss his insight and his humour.

I just investigated that...TD last posted this morning and now it says "TimeOut" under his name. He must have said something naughty .

5 cyber bucks says that TrueDetective will be back!

 

[curiousjo]

Didn't OP original story state that RS was in bed, and that comforter covered her. That is his best defense, as to why he would presume she was in bed. If no comforter on her, then he should have noticed EMPTY bed, had she gone to bathroom. So, what was his final testimony regarding the comforter position? I have another thought on this, but will not post at this time.