Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Forensics]

Do you know about the Jeffery Macdonald case?

The crime was as disturbed as it could be, and McD's wallet was stolen (and proven to be so) by an ambulance driver.

Yet, the evidence was sufficient to convict McD.

Like the prosecutor in the case said in court, "the defendant is entitled to a fair trial, not a perfect trial".

Molly, do you know of any case where a mistrial has been declared because the police allegedly tampered with the crime scene?

I have read of many cases where the DT alleges police tampering, not I have not read of any mistrials for this reason.



<modsnip> IMO.

Yes, and if I remember rightly, motive was not proven, the case was based solely on forensic evidence and the fact that Jeffrey MacDonald's version was considered implausible (hippie intruders). Furthermore, Jeffrey MacDonald did not do himself any favours on the stand either...

 

[minor4th]

That watch strap sure looks like the one that OP wears to court. Just saying.

If that hand can be identified, then we've found the watch thief!

 

[minor4th]

Hmm I thought that was cleared up weeks ago, those are the ones that iirc would have been taken on the 15th when they were trying to reassemble the door.

I think you are absolutely correct about that.

 

[nastasya]

This is photo #55 that was taken by Van Staden at 5:58 a.m. This was shown to OP during cross exam and asked if anything was out of place, etc.

Then Nel also refers to this pic as #55, taken at 5:58 a.m. I believe one of the two is #55 and the other is #56, both taken at 5:58 a.m.

^^ so those were supposed to be the first photos taken of the bedroom after the incident. OP claims that the fan, duvet, jeans, curtains were not in those positions immediately after the incident and says they must have been moved.

This is another photo of the fan and same general area - #894 (?) that Van Ransburg testified about and said that this was not how things looked when he first viewed the crime scene. No time was given for this photo

I am not sure what to think. If 55 and 56 are really pics of the actual scene before anything was moved, then that does undermine OP's account - it couldn't have possibly happened the way he described. Unfortunately, we know that the crime scene was not handled properly, and we know that Botha and Van Rensburg went up and looked at everything before Van Staden went up and started taking photos.

If there weren't so many instances of mishandling the crime scene, we might be able to conclude that those pics are true depictions of the untouched crime scene. Given the mistakes during the investigation, however, there's no way to know for sure.

These pictures were shown and discussed during OP's cross examination on April 9 and April 11 if you want to view the archives and see it all for yourself.

Your forgetting a HUGE hole in OP's story - the 2nd fan.

OP insisted the 2nd fan was running, and placed beneath the first larger fan on the tripod.

Only problem was that there was no another outlet for the 2nd fan to be plugged in, and if it was under the first fan the cord would not have reached the outlet on the right hand wall.

Further, the cord to the 2nd fan was under the speaker cabinet.

Also interesting is that in both of OP's versions he couldn't remember the lies he previously told. When he described going out on the deck to scream immediately after thinking it was Reeva in the toilet he forgot to mention anything about needing to now move BOTH fans before opening the door to the deck.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Also, I don't think WhatsApp messages are automatically deleted from the phone after 7 days as was previously stated. What would be the point of that?

fwiw, i have whatsapp messages on my iphone from dec 2012.

 

[nastasya]

Also, I don't think WhatsApp messages are automatically deleted from the phone after 7 days as was previously stated. What would be the point of that?

Why don't you visit the WhatsApp site and send them a tech support question and ask them.

Here's the screen cap from the site.

 

[jacalyn]

There's more chance of Oscar getting athlete's foot.

Have been getting all my info here. Yea 100% guilty and premeditated. However James, you deserve an award for the best comment here. LOL sic, but loved it.

 

[Val1]

The 3:12 was mentioned by Roux as a time he found in Johnson's notes. OP never gave a time.

The brachial artery is a large artery running close to the upper arm bone. The shot amputated this bone so it must have severed the artery. A severed brachial artery will bleed out in about 5 minutes.

The shot to her right side did a lot of damage to the interior of her hip. If it severed the femoral artery bleed-out could happen in seconds.

Head wounds also tend to bleed quite a lot.

Saayman said any of these wounds on their own (without immediate medical attention) would cause someone to bleed to death within a few breaths.

Now put the blood loss from all three wounds together. She could not have lived very long.

bbm - I can verify, from personal experience, that head wounds bleed profusely. I had a car accident when I was 17 where I sustained a pretty good gash to my head, the blood left behind just on the floor in my car, not to mention what drenched my clothes or ruined my rescuer's back seat, was more than what we have seen at this crime scene.

 

[wishIknewmore]

Your forgetting a HUGE hole in OP's story - the 2nd fan.

OP insisted the 2nd fan was running, and placed beneath the first larger fan on the tripod.

Only problem was that there was no another outlet for the 2nd fan to be plugged in, and if it was under the first fan the cord would not have reached the outlet on the right hand wall.

Further, the cord to the 2nd fan was under the speaker cabinet.

Also interesting is that in both of OP's versions he couldn't remember the lies he previously told. When he described going out on the deck to scream immediately after thinking it was Reeva in the toilet he forgot to mention anything about needing to now move BOTH fans before opening the door to the deck.

I'm not seeing the 2nd fan in the pics. Am I missing it or is it not there?

 

[Jake18]

Wait a minute! Where did all of that stuff you posted a few minutes ago about Reeva's bleeding liver just go? Poof, like magic it is gone.

And since you are pasting stuff now, from your link:

"Pathologist Gert Saayman told the court that Steenkamp did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound."

The trouble is that you are taking what he said to mean she only stopped breathing, that Dr. Saymaan was not describing Reeva's dying. And then you go off on your speculation that her heart was still beating and pumping blood, and she was alive for 6-20 minutes to be able to have arterial spurts on the way downstairs, and the reason that there is only a small amount of blood is because she was bleeding internally from the gunshot to her hip so we don't see the blood. And if that was not ridiculous enough already, her severed artery in he right arm stopped bleeding, the two gunshots wounds to her head too, and her hip as well. Did I get all of that right?

Pale liver from blood loss = um, maybe a bleeding liver?

It's pretty hard to explain arterial blood spray without a beating heart, compression stocking analogies notwithstanding. And, unlike you, I see no reason why the blood splatter expert "got it wrong".

And re the heart beating after resp arrest, this has been covered about 4 times now and seems to reappear on every page.

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Thank you. Found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsQaxImyQVA

At about 26:00

Roux says both voices was OP and they will call a witness to testify that OP sounds just like a woman.

Stipp says it would be curious because intermingled (mixed together) with the woman's screaming, he heard the man's voice so must he then believe that OP can scream in two voices, two tones?

In Afrikaans (also in Dutch) when two people sing in harmony you say the song is sung in "tweede stem." Literally it means "second voice." Dr. Stipp is saying that it would be curious because one person alone can not sing in two voices or two tones (in harmony with himself).

and bingo, just after that [27:20ish], as roux insists that the first shots killed rs, so she couldn't have screamed after that time... nel is up... saying this is not the state's case.

 

[Forensics]

I read your link. Nothing new. Certainly not death by exsanguination as you would like it to be.

I will stick with Professor Saymaan on this. He determined that Reeva died within 2-3 breaths of being shot in her head, and he determined the cause of her death was "gunshot wounds." Reeva did not bleed to death. :facepalm:

ETA: Why would you post "if there was bleeding from her liver...?" There is absolute nothing about that in your link! You are again speculating to suit what you want her death to be, and confusing people. You are trying to create injuries and internal bleeding that Dr. Saymaan would have found and noted if they had existed, but they did not, they are just your personal speculations. I really must read carefully anything that you post.

Her heart, however, just like her liver, was pale in colour as a result of blood loss, said Saayman. (From the very article you are discussing.

 

[BritsKate]

Pale liver from blood loss = um, maybe a bleeding liver?

It's pretty hard to explain arterial blood spray without a beating heart, compression stocking analogies notwithstanding. And, unlike you, I see no reason why the blood splatter expert "got it wrong".

And re the heart beating after resp arrest, this has been covered about 4 times now and seems to reappear on every page.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Arterial spray argument aside...I'd posed a question earlier hoping for input from our medical posters. I found the answer in your posting history. I'm sorry I'd missed it! It's much appreciated and I didn't want you to have to repeat yourself. Thanks, Jake.

Here's a link for those curious: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30

 

[sleuth-d-]

I thought that was only because the DT was trying to show that the first set of sounds were gunshots, which as it turns out, does not fit with what all 5 witnesses heard or the blood evidence, correct? Seems like a red herring that got the DT spending much of their resources trying to prove something that in the end makes no difference to what actually caused RS's death.

are you saying there is no difference between bat first/gunshots second... and gunshots first/bat second?

it makes no difference to what actually caused rs death, but makes a MASSIVE difference to the circumstances leading up to her death.

 

[kittychi]

I still cannot get over it...the claim that Oscar screams like a woman is the most preposterous load that has come out of this trial.

 

[liesbeth]

Snipped for brevity and with respect.

Then Nel also refers to this pic as #55, taken at 5:58 a.m. I believe one of the two is #55 and the other is #56, both taken at 5:58 a.m.

BBM. No mention of seconds. So 05:58 is actually a whole minute long from 05:58:01 to 05:58:59.

^^ so those were supposed to be the first photos taken of the bedroom after the incident. OP claims that the fan, duvet, jeans, curtains were not in those positions immediately after the incident and says they must have been moved.

BBM. At first OP couldn't say what had been moved in the room. He kept saying he didn't know, it was dark and the experts will prove contamination. Only after Nel had shown him that the position of the fan, duvet, jeans and curtains contradicts his story did he say that they must have been moved.

I mentioned before that Motha was not the official police photographer. There's no reason for him to ensure the time on his camera's correct. But because Van Staden was the official photographer he had to make sure his time was correct. We know that he did make sure because the time and the sequence of his images were verified by the police clerk.

So I will wait for the defense experts (and their cross examinations) to prove tampering.

 

[Karmady]

Her heart, however, just like her liver, was pale in colour as a result of blood loss, said Saayman. (From the very article you are discussing.

Bleeding from the liver is not the same as a pale liver from loss of blood...just sayin'

 

[nastasya]

Because the state's case is bat bangs first, gunshots second. (Although Nel has been quiet about this of late.)

That's not accurate.

The state's case is woman's screams first, then gunshots.

The sounds before the gunshots could have been anything. It could have been OP hitting the door with the bat and then hitting the panel on the tub. It could have been OP hitting the bedroom door. It could have been OP kicking the toilet door, kicking the toilet panel, and hitting the wall with the cricket bat.

The only relevant evidence is that witnesses heard with 100% conviction a woman screaming in terror then gunshots.

A woman was found shot to death at the same time the witnesses heard a woman screaming in terror and shot to death.

It's really not a complicated case. OP's defense is desperate and absurd. No, he didn't scream like a woman, he didn't scream like a woman and a man at the same time, he didn't have a good reason for telling Baba he didn't need help, and he didn't break down one of the bedroom doors on his way back upstairs.

It's all bull****.

 

[Jake18]

Bleeding from the liver is not the same as a pale liver from loss of blood...just sayin'

True, I'll give you that! But she definitely bled a lot.

 

[BritsKate]

The 3:12 was mentioned by Roux as a time he found in Johnson's notes. OP never gave a time.

The brachial artery is a large artery running close to the upper arm bone. The shot amputated this bone so it must have severed the artery. A severed brachial artery will bleed out in about 5 minutes.

The shot to her right side did a lot of damage to the interior of her hip. If it severed the femoral artery bleed-out could happen in seconds to a minute or two.

Head wounds also tend to bleed quite a lot.

Saayman said any of these wounds on their own (without immediate medical attention) would cause someone to bleed to death within a few breaths.

Now put the blood loss from all three wounds together. She could not have lived very long.

RBBM
I'd missed Roux stating it so this is where I was coming up with the 3:12...

According to the timeline of the evening, the bangs heard by neighbours would have been the sounds of the cricket bat, Pistorius testified. He estimated that the amount of time intervening between him firing the four shots and breaking down the door was around five minutes.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-04-09-pistorius-trial-week-five-day-three/#.U1cnMfldWMM