Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[minor4th]

[
BIB
Not so. It is the state's case that the bat hits were first and the gun shots were last. Nel clearly stated this when Roux was attempting to create his version of the timeline. This has been discussed many times here and the relevant video linked. With due diligence you will be able to find it. If you follow the state's case you will understand why the last two witnesses did not hear any gunshots (save one) or screaming. They slept through it all and awoke to hear Oscar crying out helpx3.

Respectfully, Nel has not stated clearly that his case is that the bat hits were before the gunshots. He hasn't mentioned anything about the first shots (before 3:17); he has said it's his case that the shots at 3:17 killed Reeva.

I do believe you're right that he will somehow argue that the bat hits were first when it comes time to closing arguments.

I am really looking forward to the closing arguments because ATM there are so many contradictions among the witnesses' testimonies - I can't wait to see how each side deals with this and explains whose version they accept and why and which accounts they discount and why.

 

[ColonelMustard]

He screams like a girl but only when he's murdering a girl who isn't screaming.


JMO

nice one.

 

[crasshopper]

Yes, though that would kind of explain how so much of the blood and stuff got on the bat and possibly that one panel, I can't see OP sticking his hand in there to get it .... however, I don't recall any evidence of the cell phone having water damage let alone brain tissue or bone fragments on/in it.:twocents:

I was supporting your post.

 

[Val1]

That is what we have seen most recently. But I remember back at the start, reading that the 'landscaper' lived in a detached studio apt, like a pool house, in the back yard. And he watched the dogs and was a caretaker of the property.

I don't know where you'd fit something like a separate pool house in that yard... wherever he lived, I'd say it was attached to the house somehow.

http://ewn.co.za/-/media/Images/2014/03/06/13/33/140306Silverwoods-jpg.ashx?as=1&h=418&w=699

This one shows the other side:
http://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/1955/9d5c2e8905314915b15a58d790074c2f.jpg

 

[ColonelMustard]

On that note, what are the prisons like in SA ? Unfortunately I do not have a legal brain in my body.…..35 years of aviation consequently anything I would have to add would be pure dribble.

I am in awe of the websleuthers knowledge and contributions.

Ditto.

 

[ColonelMustard]

The defence seems to want it both ways. Sorta like OP's defence...

nice.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Very poor generally (though there are new ones being built) due to the overcrowding and age of the building. Having read this up during the last few days it seems the overcrowding is dire and many prisons hold twice the intended capacity. Depending where they are and their age, they are dirty, filled with murderers and addicts and are very dangerous places. If OP is found guilty, he will almost certainly appeal and be allowed bail during this process. However, if his appeal fails IMO a newish prison with better facilities will be found for him, unlike some other poor Jo who gets dumped in a dive.

yup...

 

[JudgeJudi]

In that case, why not the kitchen/dining area? RS had apparently eaten within two hours or so of being killed, maybe she was redoing those contracts on the dining table, the ones that OP claimed to have helped her with, even though she is the one with a law degree...

Frank's living quarters were outside the kitchen. This fits in with my theory that they were both downstairs when Reeva got her snack and that the argument started up again. Frank could very well have heard that argument but for reasons of his own he chooses to say "heard nothing".

 

[Val1]

baba didn't ever mention frank out at the front of the building either. although he did mention being outside with a second security guard [in the buggy].

having said that, baba also said there were five people at the front of the house after the standers got out of the car...

baba
second security guard

j stander
carise stander

??? frank ???

all very unclear/inconclusive.

Iirc, the second security guard had been on a bike, not sure if he then joined Baba in the buggy to go to OP's, or if Baba was just speaking to him on the bike after meeting him there ...

 

[ColonelMustard]

Agree totally.
The fact of the matter is he was standing outside when the Stander's arrived which makes him a vital witness, the fact that he was standing there means something or someone woke him up.
It Lead's me to come to the conclusion that Frank is not prepared to get involved because he is not willing to lie on the stand about what he heard.
It's obvious that if Oscar was telling the truth this man would have felt it his duty to testify, can anyone dispute that?.

Interesting.

 

[minor4th]

<modsnip>

In the latest you surpass yourself. You say:



I.e. you reject what no one has claimed or suggested - that Oscar called for help twice.

Let's try again very slowly...in chronological order.

1. First set of bangs.
2. Reeva utters bloodcurdling screams and cries for help.
3. Second set of bangs.
4. Oscar yells and cries for help.

I am not asking you to accept that this is what happened. I am just pointing out that it is physically possible and maximizes the credence we can extend to all witnesses.

You have specifically stated that you believe that some of Dr Stipp's testimony is factually erroneous. You have also claimed that interpreting Mrs N's bang as belonging to the second set contradicts prosecution witnesses. You have also repeatedly stated (though not recently) that if a scream was heard after bangs this proves that Reeva did not scream before being shot.

All of these theories of yours are based on the assumption that witnesses recounting approximately similar events (bangs, cries) must all be recounting the same events even if we have to make major adjustments to their timelines and details (number of bangs) to harmonize them.

I have no abjection to your finding that the most credible interpretation. But I do object to pretending that it is not an interpretation at all. And I do object to your erroneous claim that there is no scenario capable of reconciling the substance of all witness statements and leaving intact the testimony of Dr Stipp who is by far the most credible witness on the spot, possessing all relevant competence and the only person who stayed calm, acted by the book and clearly has no axe to grind.

1. The post that I was responding to specifically said that Oscar must have screamed help twice. Please review the post. That is what I was responding to.

2. I don't know where you're coming up with your "chronological" events, but please recall that 5 witnesses heard Oscar yell for help before the bangs at 3:17.

3. Precisely - I logically believe that the witnesses are describing the same events of Feb 14; to wit, two sets of bangs screams, yells, and loud crying. And yes, I am trying to harmonize the various accounts in accordance with certain things that are known and not disputed - like the times of phone calls from various ear witnesses.

4. There is no way to reconcile all of the witness testimony, which means that some witnesses had an error their recollection or their perception - and this is assuming that all witnesses were telling the truth as they believe it.

5. I agree that Dr Stipp was very credible. That does not mean that he may have forgotten the exact sequence of something a year down the road. He's human, for crying out loud, and not infallible. I also found Oscar's neighbor witnesses to be credible, and we do have their prior written statements and the phone data with the times of their calls. So when you've got several credible witnesses whose accounts cannot be "harmonized" as you say - then you look to the other evidence to figure it out. That is all I have done.

I do not understand why it is a problem for anyone here that I summarize the actual evidence and draw the logical and reasonable inferences. That's not to say anyone has to agree but it's not right to insult and belittle my comments

ETA: I apologize for such a delayed response. Now is the first time today I have been able to get on WS and read comments from last night.

 

[Cherwell]

Respectfully, Nel has not stated clearly that his case is that the bat hits were before the gunshots. He hasn't mentioned anything about the first shots (before 3:17); he has said it's his case that the shots at 3:17 killed Reeva.

I do believe you're right that he will somehow argue that the bat hits were first when it comes time to closing arguments.

I am really looking forward to the closing arguments because ATM there are so many contradictions among the witnesses' testimonies - I can't wait to see how each side deals with this and explains whose version they accept and why and which accounts they discount and why.

I think he also said that he is going to dispute the times.

 

[ColonelMustard]

So why didn't Frank look after the dogs while OP was away?

GOOD question!!!

 

[minor4th]

I think he also said that he is going to dispute the times.

Some of the times might be disputed, but he said it's the state's case that the last bangshots were at 3:17 and those are the shots that killed Reeva.

 

[ColonelMustard]

He appears to be deaf and blind, i wouldn't want him looking after my dog either to be fair.

I almost spit out my pop on that one, James!!

 

[Zuri]

I too believe the argument started downstairs and then subsided. They may then have gone upstairs for some time, looking at cars etc on the phone. At approx. 1.00 they both went downstairs, Reeva had her snack and the argument started up again. She retreated to the bedroom with him in pursuit, OP grabbing the bat on the way (he kept trophies downstairs). She locked the bedroom door and he bashed it in. At some point the duvet landed on the floor. The inside out jeans, could well be that she was putting them on and he ripped them them off her. The blood splatter continued from the duvet to those jeans. He then threw the jeans with the white belt outside.

This scenario is so plausible it is heartbreaking considering the outcome. JMO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Hi all,
I have not been able to catch up on the last two days of testimony....hopefully will get to catch up soon. But saw some snippets of Stander's daughter's testimony on TV....anyway I'm just befuddled that they still don't get how he totally did an act on them just like he has been doing an act for the Court!!!!!!!!

Let's see....from the time he fired the shots up until the time he called Stander for help, he had time to think (albeit it very briefly) about his strategy. His strategy was to over-act, just like he does in Court. So that everyone would say, "oh no of course this was an accident.....look at how upset he was! Look how he was crying. Look how he kept saying he wanted to save her!"

However, they don't think about fact that, that would take about 5 seconds for anyone in his situation to think of that strategy. I'm just sayin'. If you shoot someone on purpose, doesn't take a lot of brain-power to figure out that you need to seem very remorseful, sad, worried, frantic, etc. when people show up.

It's obvious he was lying in his expressed desire to "save" Reeva, because he admitted on the stand during various moments and inconsistencies, that he knew she was dead all the way back in the toilet room. Therefore, any expressed desires to "save" Reeva were all feigned. He already knew she was dead. Furthermore, his fingers in her mouth were feigned and all part of his act. How can you say you knew she was dead at one moment, and then a few minutes later, be putting your fingers down her throat trying to "get her to breathe"?

It's all lies.

And if I was the Judge, I would be thinking, well how can I believe a single word out of the Standers' mouths when they don't even know how badly they've been duped by Oscar?

JMO.

Exactly. He also said that she died in his arms, ie while he was carrying her down the stairs. She then had to be dead by the time he was told to put her down. So yes, why was he putting his fingers now down her throat?

 

[minor4th]

I'll try to explain.

During Mrs Nhlenghetwa's cross Nel puts it to her that, based on Dr Stipp's evidence, it was the last set of bangs that woke her. Roux keeps objecting. He says it cannot be put because they have the 03:16 call. But then Nel tells him the call can be argued and Roux immediately stops objecting and sits down.

This puzzled me. Stipp's call was at 03:15:51 and it is a fact. So how could Nel argue a fact? And why would Roux accept that this can be argued?

I found my answer during Roux's cross of Baba.

During Baba's cross examination Roux tells Baba that Stipp's 03:15:51 (16 seconds) call must have been the call that went through to security. So I accepted the time of the call as a fact. Which it was because it was not disputed by Nel.

My mistake was that I also accepted Roux's opinion that this "must have been" the call that went through to security as a fact. Nel can not object to an opinion. But he can argue it later.

Remember that Dr. Stipp said he'd made more than one call to security before he heard the final set of sounds? So there is at least one call in the records that is a mystery to us.

I've used the time of Stipp's call in my timeline. But I'm no longer sure of the time. Because I can no longer assume that Stipp's call at 03:15:15 was the one that went through to Baba. Could there have been an earlier call?

Let us look at what Mrs Stipp said. She looks at her clock and sees 03:17 (but the clock is about 3-4 min fast) then she hears shots. So she puts the final shots at between 03:13 or 03:14. So an earlier call by Dr Stipp fits this scenario.

And this also means that Mr Nhlengethwa's call at 03:16 was about two minutes AFTER the last shots. Which also fits.

Edit: I mentioned in my other post that the phone records (exhibits Q, R and T) were not made public. So, as far as calls and times are concerned, we (the public) only have what was said in court.

Edit 2: And the Burgers did not phone Silverwoods security. So we don't have their phone records. So it is very possible that the time on their cellphone was incorrect. Like the Stipp's alarm clock. And Motha's camera.

I hope this helps?

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying, and yes there was some confusion about the exact times that Stipp called and which time he reached security. The records indicated that he got through on the first call and it lasted for 16 seconds (?) and the second call was null. Maybe that was a pocket dial or something?

In any event, Nel has stipulated that the second bangs were at 3:17. He said it in open court and it's in his bill of further particulars (can't remember if it was in his charging statement or bail pleading).

I think the reason Nel is not disputing that time is because Johnson's phone records that he made available to the state and defense - and about which he testified - show that he called the wrong security at 3:16 and was on the phone 58 seconds. And he didn't hear the bangs until after right after that phone call.

Maybe Nel will argue something different in closing arguments, but I'm not even sure he would be allowed to do that since he has agreed to the 3:17 time and didn't question Johnson on his phone records or give any indication that the times were incorrect.

 

[ColonelMustard]

is this what you're looking for?


Nel: Then you got to the entrance of the bathroom and you kept quiet?
By sky news court reporter april 11 at 3:27 am

op: Yes, my lady. I wanted to peer around the corner. I wasn't sure if the person was waiting for me. i was kneeling down.
by sky news court reporter april 11 at 3:27 am

nel: Okay, you are kneeling down and what happened?
By sky news court reporter april 11 at 3:28 am

op: It was splits seconds. Someone could have run up and attacked me or stuck his hand around the corner and fired at me.
By sky news court reporter april 11 at 3:28 am

nel: That is not true op, that is a lie.
By sky news court reporter april 11 at 3:28 am


on page 11

http://news.sky.com/story/1240765/oscar-pistorius-trial-court-transcript

bingo!

 

[Karmady]

Ok, I think I understand what you're saying, and yes there was some confusion about the exact times that Stipp called and which time he reached security. The records indicated that he got through on the first call and it lasted for 16 seconds (?) and the second call was null. Maybe that was a pocket dial or something?

In any event, Nel has stipulated that the second bangs were at 3:17. He said it in open court and it's in his bill of further particulars (can't remember if it was in his charging statement or bail pleading).

I think the reason Nel is not disputing that time is because Johnson's phone records that he made available to the state and defense - and about which he testified - show that he called the wrong security at 3:16 and was on the phone 58 seconds. And he didn't hear the bangs until after right after that phone call.

Maybe Nel will argue something different in closing arguments, but I'm not even sure he would be allowed to do that since he has agreed to the 3:17 time and didn't question Johnson on his phone records or give any indication that the times were incorrect.

Hey there. I asked before and I'm sorry if I missed your answer, but where are you finding the BOP and the FBOP please? TIA :seeya: