Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[TorisMom003]

Bib

Lol! :blowkiss:

I have a question, for you and/or for anyone else who has an answer:

I believe Nel asked the witnesses today had they been following the trial on TV and, I believe, they answered in the affirmative (correct me if I'm wrong!)

Isn't that a no-no? A witness who has not been on the stand yet watching other witnesses on the stand? Or is it not a no-no in SA?

I know that threw me for a loop to hear all of the witnesses from yesterday (I believe both Standers said they had been following as well) and today to say that they have been following every day of the trial. What a way to taint their testimony. Especially with them being sympathetic towards OP.

MOO

 

[Bazinga]

Does that mean the gunshots were definately after the cricket bat then?

they're called BANGSHOTS now! :wink:

 

[katydid23]

Wed., April 9th Session 1
@ 11:00

"When I got to the bottom of the flight of stairs either Mr. Stander or Carice Stander told me to put Reeva down, that the ambulance was on it's way. Before I put her down I said to them that I, that we needed to get her to the hospital, we need to get to the hospital. They said, just, just put her down, ambulance is on it's way........"

=======================================================

"When Mr. Stander arrived at the house accompanied by his daughter, he saw Mr. Pistorius coming down the stairs with Ms. Steenkamp in his arms. “He was crying. He was really crying. He was in pain,” Mr. Stander said.


Ms. Viljoen said the athlete was carrying Ms. Steenkamp and pleading with her. “Stay with me, my love, stay with me,” she quoted him as saying. When she and her father arrived at the house, she said, “I just saw blood everywhere.” She said she had brought towels from a linen cupboard to try to stanch the bleeding.

“My dad was outside calling the ambulance,” Ms. Viljoen said. “Oscar kept begging: ‘Let’s take her to the hospital.' ” At one point, when Mr. Pistorius went back upstairs, she said, she feared he planned to take his handgun and shoot himself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/w...r-pistorius-resumes-in-south-africa.html?_r=0

============================================



OKAY. So there is a bit of a discrepancy here concerning the ambulance. According to all 3 of the initial ones on the scene as Reeva is in the throes of death, the 'ambulance was said to be on the way.'

But why would they say that? None of them had actually ,successfully, called for one yet.,

The Standers both claim to have seen OP make his dramatic descent down the grand stairway, and they both described his passionate pleas for her to 'stay with him, not to die.' Then Op and the Standers ALL AGREE that they told him to put her down because the ambulance was on the way.

But it wasn't on the way. No one called until Stander Senior then went outside to begin making that call. What time was it by then? How much time had passed, with the loud wailing and grieving, since the shooting? maybe 20 minutes or so>? :banghead:


This is one of the MAJOR ISSUES I have with OP's story. When you have a loved one, literally bleeding out on the floor, DYING, how long do you wait to get them urgently needed medical care? Would it take 20 minutes for you to actually order an ambulance to begin it's trip over?

All these other things that OP listed that needed doing, before actually getting her help are mind boggling. Calling Uncle Johan, FIRST, and not actually ordering netcare to send help, for one main example.

And not screaming for Frank to come upstairs IMMEDIATELY. He could have carried her to the car.

Sending Baba away by saying it's FINE, another mind boggling decision.

He seemed to do everything but get Reeva immediate care. He even insults the first doctor on the scene, calling him useless. Meanwhile OP is sticking his fingers in her mouth to 'help her breathe?'

 

[lithgow1]

Bib

Lol! :blowkiss:

I have a question, for you and/or for anyone else who has an answer:

I believe Nel asked the witnesses today had they been following the trial on TV and, I believe, they answered in the affirmative (correct me if I'm wrong!)

Isn't that a no-no? A witness who has not been on the stand yet watching other witnesses on the stand? Or is it not a no-no in SA?

I'll try and answer and hopefully someone will correct any errors. Yes, most of them did. I didn't catch it all but one did after checking that she wouldn't be called as a witness and the others did to varying degrees. I guess when it is such a big news story it is hard to avoid. I'd of thought it would be problematic and IIRC the defence seemed to make a big thing about Darren Fresno following the trial so dunno really. Not much of an answer I'm afraid but at least I didn't say anything contentious!

There was an interesting radio discussion about all this in terms of the judge and they were saying that even though she would be avoiding ALL media it is hard to block out completely. They were even saying that's likely why she didn't know about today's election - she's studiously not reading papers, watching TV etc.

 

[shane13]

Shane13,
The last thread we were talking about Ms. Stander saying that she was the one that told OP to put Reeva down, that the ambulance was on the way. I said that I thought I remembered OP saying in his testimony that MR. Stander was the one that told him that.

So I went and listened to OP's testimony last night and today and found the following:

Wed., April 9th Session 1
@ 11:00

"When I got to the bottom of the flight of stairs either Mr. Stander or Carice Stander told me to put Reeva down, that the ambulance was on it's way. Before I put her down I said to them that I, that we needed to get her to the hospital, we need to get to the hospital. They said, just, just put her down, ambulance is on it's way........"

So it appears I was half correct. OP said that one of them told him to put her down.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 9 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

thanks TorisMom003.

 

[TorisMom003]

Wed., April 9th Session 1
@ 11:00

"When I got to the bottom of the flight of stairs either Mr. Stander or Carice Stander told me to put Reeva down, that the ambulance was on it's way. Before I put her down I said to them that I, that we needed to get her to the hospital, we need to get to the hospital. They said, just, just put her down, ambulance is on it's way........"

=======================================================

When Mr. Stander arrived at the house accompanied by his daughter, he saw Mr. Pistorius coming down the stairs with Ms. Steenkamp in his arms. “He was crying. He was really crying. He was in pain,” Mr. Stander said.


Ms. Viljoen said the athlete was carrying Ms. Steenkamp and pleading with her. “Stay with me, my love, stay with me,” she quoted him as saying. When she and her father arrived at the house, she said, “I just saw blood everywhere.” She said she had brought towels from a linen cupboard to try to stanch the bleeding.

“My dad was outside calling the ambulance,” Ms. Viljoen said. “Oscar kept begging: ‘Let’s take her to the hospital.' ” At one point, when Mr. Pistorius went back upstairs, she said, she feared he planned to take his handgun and shoot himself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/w...r-pistorius-resumes-in-south-africa.html?_r=0

OKAY. So there is a bit of a discrepancy here concerning the ambulance. According to all 3 of the initial ones on the scene as Reeva is in the throes of death, OP and the Standers, the 'ambulance was said to be on the way.'

But why would they say that? None of them had actually ,successfully, called for one yet.,

The Standers both claim to have seen OP make his dramatic descent down the grand stairway, and they both described his passionate pleas for her to 'stay with him, not to die.' Then Op and the Standers ALL AGREE that they told him to put her down because the ambulance was on the way.

But it wasn't on the way. No one called until Stander Senior then went outside to begin making that call. What time was it by then? How much time had passed, with the loud wailing and grieving, since the shooting? maybe 20 minutes or so>? :bangs head:

Confusing isn't it?!? Mr. Stander didn't call until Dr. Stipp arrived, checked out Reeva, said she was dead, went outside with Mr. Stander and asked Mr. Stander if an ambulance was on the way.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I am nearly convinced of it.. a change in the plea ,perhaps. a deal if a lower charge is set.. I cant see it happening, though.. Nel is on a roll and there is no reason for him to deal.. plenty of reasons for Roux to try it on ,though. a good lawyer would do it, even against a clients mad instruction.. I don't know if it can even be done under the current statute.. I do not understand why Westy and Wollly didn't take the stand immediately today.. no idea why Roux fluffed around with N and Mrs N and the other woman .. . nutso stuff.

All agree: after the break work hard, work long, make up time lost during the break.

Monday, Roux caught with his pants down. "I thought these 2 witnesses would take all day." M'Lady seems pissed.

Tuesday, Roux does EXACTLY the same thing for EXACTLY the same reason. "I thought these 3 witnesses would take all day." Everyone seems pretty cozy, it's alright, we understand, sh$t happens.

WTF?

I'm probably just mad because I needed my OP Trial fix and both days were just teasers.

 

[TorisMom003]

thanks TorisMom003.

You're welcome. Now if you really want to thank me, send me a bottle of vodka so I can forget most of the carp I listened to, lol.

 

[Bazinga]

Hi everyone,
I'm feeling better. Good to take a break.
I think Oscar's remark to Ms Myers is incredibly damaging for him. Witnessed by a number of people. Ms Myers, her mum, a journalist and a police officer and maybe others. How frightening for a man on trial for murder to walk past and whisper such a comment to you. I hope action is taken. Surely nobody would suggest all these people would decide to lie to set up Oscar. Even though OP may deny it I have no doubt the judge will believe it happened.
He cannot control himself! :facepalm:

 

[shane13]

So many posters here have offered "it defies common sense ..." explanations for their points of view. Anyone who's done any hard science is wary of that kind of thing. It's not real sleuthing. I hate to do this, but here I go: Einstein once said "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." And that is pretty much true. Compare what we heard today from witnesses who live next door to OP and who seem to have heard little compared with witnesses who live nearly 3 football fields away who claim they heard lots more. That makes no sense!

It can make plenty of sense.
With everything from wave physics, as I've posted here for a year, to some having all windows closed and A/C on.
Etc.

 

[Feynman]

I say the crucial part of the question was omitted. He should have said:

"if you were in the street in front of and facing OP's house, would your house be to the right or left of Oscar's house?"

It's the same problem that crops up when people talk about the left or right hand side of the bed. You need to know which way they are facing.

Not so. After Roux made it clear we were standing in the street, he said "if you face Mr. Pistorius's house, is your house on the left, or to the right?" And then we proceeded to John Cleese and Michael Palin.

 

[lithgow1]

Something new to watch. Just started myself so I make no claims about nuthin'

oscar trial legal panel 13 - YouTube

 

[thewagesofsin]

All agree: after the break work hard, work long, make up time lost during the break.

Monday, Roux caught with his pants down. "I thought these 2 witnesses would take all day." M'Lady seems pissed.

Tuesday, Roux does EXACTLY the same thing for EXACTLY the same reason. "I thought these 3 witnesses would take all day." Everyone seems pretty cozy, it's alright, we understand, sh$t happens.

WTF?

I'm probably just mad because I needed my OP Trial fix and both days were just teasers.

I was surprised as well that the Judge didn't lay into him when this happened. This must be frustrating to watch if you're one of the people waiting for their day in court hoping for justice.

 

[ColonelMustard]

At the bail hearing Roux was trying to get Nair to charge OP with Culpable Homicide, even then!

No, OP is going to go for the Gold Medal here. LOL!!!

Now, that thar's real FUNNY!

 

[crasshopper]

I don't know how things work in SA but in the US, in principle at least, people are innocent until proved guilty. He hasn't been convicted, yet.

They are presumed innocent by the law. Big difference.

 

[thewagesofsin]

Another thing I've meant to talk about, but I've just recently joined this forum, is when the female assessor asked Pistorius if Reeva knew how to work the alarm system. Pistorius answered that he didn't know if she knew or not. Reeva had stayed there by herself while Oscar was away, wouldn't Oscar have showed her how to work it if he was worried about her and/or his house? I don't understand how he wouldn't know if she could work it or not unless there's something I have wrong here.

 

[Feynman]

It makes sense since their windows and doors were not open. They were also sleeping at the time and their houses are not in the same direction (read straight across from) of where the noises were coming from.

Common sense tells us that if a person who is missing some of their legs feels unsteady without their prosthetic legs on, they would put them on (especially when it really only takes a few seconds) before attempting to go and confront an "intruder" they believe in is in their home. Correct?

MOO

I just downgraded common sense, so I don't understand why you ask me this question.

BTW, why did Merwe hear loud arguing noises, with all sorts of obstacles in the way, while the Stipps, closer than Merwe and with a direct line, did not?

 

[TorisMom003]

I just downgraded common sense, so I don't understand why you ask me this question.

BTW, why did Merwe hear loud arguing noises, with all sorts of obstacles in the way, while the Stipps, closer than Merwe and with a direct line, did not?

Because the Stipps were asleep at the time?

 

[DebinGA]

Deb, if it can be done easily, how do you link a single post.

I tried to decipher by quoting your post but was unable to do so. Tnx in advance!

So sorry I'm so late getting back to you, crasshopper, but I see TorisMom003 kindly posted the only way I know how to do it.

 

[Cymbaline]

Confusing isn't it?!? Mr. Stander didn't call until Dr. Stipp arrived, checked out Reeva, said she was dead, went outside with Mr. Stander and asked Mr. Stander if an ambulance was on the way.

Van Rensburg said that Clarice Stander told him that both she and her father had been called by Pistorius for assistance and that the athlete had asked them to use his car to get Steenkamp to hospital, but that her father had refused and insisted on calling an ambulance.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2014/03/17/inside-the-oscar-pistorius-trial---day-10