Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[DebinGA]

Kind of like when he showed up at the meeting with Mark Batchelor with his gun in holster...too cowboy for his own good.

Wasn't that where he got the head hit he claimed as one of his "crime victim" experiences? Talk about chutzpah.

 

[katydid23]

Another thing I've meant to talk about, but I've just recently joined this forum, is when the female assessor asked Pistorius if Reeva knew how to work the alarm system. Pistorius answered that he didn't know if she knew or not. Reeva had stayed there by herself while Oscar was away, wouldn't Oscar have showed her how to work it if he was worried about her and/or his house? I don't understand how he wouldn't know if she could work it or not unless there's something I have wrong here.

I think you are on to something here. Us 'middle kids' aren't as dumb as we look. lol

I think Nel will come back to this during his closing. And I wonder if it will tie into OP's assertion that she couldn't have gone to get food later in the night because she didn't have the alarm code?

 

[thewagesofsin]

It can make plenty of sense.
With everything from wave physics, as I've posted here for a year, to some having all windows closed and A/C on.
Etc.

Exactly. Snoring, white-noise machines, listening to music while sleeping, tv was on, a deep sleeper, sound proof walls, fans blowing, etc., etc...

Slightly off topic here but for a gated community, there seem to be a lot of folks there who beat the heat by opening windows and using fans. What's up with that?

 

[crasshopper]

So many posters here have offered "it defies common sense ..." explanations for their points of view. Anyone who's done any hard science is wary of that kind of thing. It's not real sleuthing. I hate to do this, but here I go: Einstein once said "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." And that is pretty much true.

I would say that Einstein was wrong but those are not his words.


I believe you are taking an "attributed" quote from a brilliant man, out of context.
He was discussing the need to think out of the box in order to make great scientific leaps.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/04/29/common-sense/


Are these really the words of Einstein?

Quote Investigator: The earliest relevant evidence located by QI was published in May 1948 by Lincoln Barnett who was the former editor of “Life” magazine. He wrote a three-part series titled “The Universe and Dr. Einstein” for the April, May, and June issues of “Harper’s Magazine” which included a discussion of the theory of relativity. A version of the saying was attributed to Einstein by Barnett, but the words were not placed between quotation marks. Boldface has been added:

At first meeting these facts are difficult to digest but that is simply because classical physics assumed, unjustifiably, that an object preserves the same dimensions whether it is in motion or at rest and that a clock keeps the same rhythm in motion and at rest. Common sense dictates that this must be so. But as Einstein has pointed out, common sense is actually nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down in the mind prior to the age of eighteen. Every new idea one encounters in later years must combat this accretion of “self-evident” concepts. And it is because of Einstein’s unwillingness ever to accept any unproven principle as self-evident that he was able to penetrate closer to the underlying realities of nature than any scientist before him.

The material in the series was used as the foundation of a book by Barnett under the same title of “The Universe and Dr. Einstein” that was released in 1948 in New York and 1949 in London. The excerpt given above was also included in the book. Interestingly, the foreword was written by Albert Einstein who commended the work.

 

[Feynman]

It can make plenty of sense.
With everything from wave physics, as I've posted here for a year, to some having all windows closed and A/C on.
Etc.

Wave physics is not common sense.

 

[lithgow1]

Another thing I've meant to talk about, but I've just recently joined this forum, is when the female assessor asked Pistorius if Reeva knew how to work the alarm system. Pistorius answered that he didn't know if she knew or not. Reeva had stayed there by herself while Oscar was away, wouldn't Oscar have showed her how to work it if he was worried about her and/or his house? I don't understand how he wouldn't know if she could work it or not unless there's something I have wrong here.

I heard something interesting re the assessor's questions today on the radio - they seemed to think that the questioning doesn't relate so much to could RS have gone down and eaten (as many of us presumed) but more did she know how to work it, the panic button on it etc and if so why would she have not used it to get help, escape etc. Basically they seemed to think its relevance is more ominous for OP than it may have seemed. Dunno if that is right at all but that's what they were saying.

 

[Val1]

I just downgraded common sense, so I don't understand why you ask me this question.

BTW, why did Merwe hear loud arguing noises, with all sorts of obstacles in the way, while the Stipps, closer than Merwe and with a direct line, did not?

I believe the argument started outside of the bedroom, probably the kitchen or lounge, maybe even in Frank's suite?

 

[Cymbaline]

Wed., April 9th Session 1
@ 11:00

"When I got to the bottom of the flight of stairs either Mr. Stander or Carice Stander told me to put Reeva down, that the ambulance was on it's way. Before I put her down I said to them that I, that we needed to get her to the hospital, we need to get to the hospital. They said, just, just put her down, ambulance is on it's way........"

=======================================================

"When Mr. Stander arrived at the house accompanied by his daughter, he saw Mr. Pistorius coming down the stairs with Ms. Steenkamp in his arms. “He was crying. He was really crying. He was in pain,” Mr. Stander said.


Ms. Viljoen said the athlete was carrying Ms. Steenkamp and pleading with her. “Stay with me, my love, stay with me,” she quoted him as saying. When she and her father arrived at the house, she said, “I just saw blood everywhere.” She said she had brought towels from a linen cupboard to try to stanch the bleeding.

“My dad was outside calling the ambulance,” Ms. Viljoen said. “Oscar kept begging: ‘Let’s take her to the hospital.' ” At one point, when Mr. Pistorius went back upstairs, she said, she feared he planned to take his handgun and shoot himself.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/w...r-pistorius-resumes-in-south-africa.html?_r=0

============================================



OKAY. So there is a bit of a discrepancy here concerning the ambulance. According to all 3 of the initial ones on the scene as Reeva is in the throes of death, the 'ambulance was said to be on the way.'

But why would they say that? None of them had actually ,successfully, called for one yet.,

The Standers both claim to have seen OP make his dramatic descent down the grand stairway, and they both described his passionate pleas for her to 'stay with him, not to die.' Then Op and the Standers ALL AGREE that they told him to put her down because the ambulance was on the way.

But it wasn't on the way. No one called until Stander Senior then went outside to begin making that call. What time was it by then? How much time had passed, with the loud wailing and grieving, since the shooting? maybe 20 minutes or so>? :banghead:


This is one of the MAJOR ISSUES I have with OP's story. When you have a loved one, literally bleeding out on the floor, DYING, how long do you wait to get them urgently needed medical care? Would it take 20 minutes for you to actually order an ambulance to begin it's trip over?

All these other things that OP listed that needed doing, before actually getting her help are mind boggling. Calling Uncle Johan, FIRST, and not actually ordering netcare to send help, for one main example.

And not screaming for Frank to come upstairs IMMEDIATELY. He could have carried her to the car.

Sending Baba away by saying it's FINE, another mind boggling decision.

He seemed to do everything but get Reeva immediate care. He even insults the first doctor on the scene, calling him useless. Meanwhile OP is sticking his fingers in her mouth to 'help her breathe?'

Miss Stander is now married and her new last name is Viljoen. (Added this for clarity.)

Viljoen: He carried her down and the moment he saw me, he said please, thank-you very much. He said take my car take her to the hospital. I just saw blood every where.
by Sky News court reporter 2:44 AM yesterday

http://news.sky.com/story/1255199/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-26-court-transcript

 

[Val1]

Wave physics is not common sense.

I learned about those way back when as a small child I noticed how sounds carried differently on a hot summer day when you could see the ripples of heat in the air....

 

[katydid23]

I heard something interesting re the assessor's questions today on the radio - they seemed to think that the questioning doesn't relate so much to could RS have gone down and eaten (as many of us presumed) but more did she know how to work it, the panic button on it etc and if so why would she have not used it to get help, escape etc. Basically they seemed to think its relevance is more ominous for OP than it may have seemed. Dunno if that is right at all but that's what they were saying.

Good point. I was wondering about that too. Why didnt she do what OP supposedly asked her to do? She never called cops with her cell, and was, according to DT theory, supposedly hiding in the toilet and not answering,because she was afraid of the intruders that OP was shouting at. So why didn't she call the cops or security from her hiding place?

For that matter, why didnt OP push his alarm panic button.

All he said in that long dialogue with Nel, was that he did not know for sure if it worked, for the pst several months after house was painted or something. So why not push it anyway?

 

[Trooper]

Exactly. Snoring, white-noise machines, listening to music while sleeping, tv was on, a deep sleeper, sound proof walls, fans blowing, etc., etc...

Slightly off topic here but for a gated community, there seem to be a lot of folks there who beat the heat by opening windows and using fans. What's up with that?

Pretoria is altitude 4,500 feet.. the nights are gorgeous after a hot day.... the ave temp in summer is about 98 F,.. ( I'm transposing all this from metric, my own comfort zone , into imperial, errors may occur ) .and the nights go down with a breeze to about 68F.. it is quite common to do this.. turn the A/C off around 7pm.. and SA doesn't do daylight saving either, so its darkish around 7.30pm..

Everyone seems to go to bed early in Pretoria.. up early with the sparrows, streets are quiet after around 10pm ish.. different to Capetown , or Durban.. you could say that Pretoria is a civil service town .. not overwhelmingly, but generally..

 

[Val1]

I heard something interesting re the assessor's questions today on the radio - they seemed to think that the questioning doesn't relate so much to could RS have gone down and eaten (as many of us presumed) but more did she know how to work it, the panic button on it etc and if so why would she have not used it to get help, escape etc. Basically they seemed to think its relevance is more ominous for OP than it may have seemed. Dunno if that is right at all but that's what they were saying.

That's interesting, except that even if RS knew how to use it, she may not have had access to it...

 

[katydid23]

Miss Stander is now married and her new last name is Viljoen. (Added this for clarity.)

Viljoen: He carried her down and the moment he saw me, he said please, thank-you very much. He said take my car take her to the hospital. I just saw blood every where.
by Sky News court reporter 2:44 AM yesterday

http://news.sky.com/story/1255199/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-26-court-transcript

RIGHT. and she and her dad answer and say NO, THE AMBULANCE IS ON THE WAY. [ which was not true.]

But WHY did OP wait for them to come? Frank was asleep, in a room, off the kitchen. He could have carried her immediately to OP's car and off they'd go.

OR he could have had Baba help him take her. But he sent them away by saying it is all fine.

I don't understand why he wanted an older gentleman from several blocks away to come over first, when he had other faster options at hand.

 

[Feynman]

I believe the argument started outside of the bedroom, probably the kitchen or lounge, maybe even in Frank's suite?

Frank lived in a suite? OK, Frank's suite is a possibility. Or perhaps it was an argument about which of OP's dogs was cuter. But since this is the "trial discussion thread", I tend to stick to the versions of the DT and the PT.

 

[ColonelMustard]

They are presumed innocent by the law. Big difference.

Touche!

 

[wb180]

Another thing I've meant to talk about, but I've just recently joined this forum, is when the female assessor asked Pistorius if Reeva knew how to work the alarm system. Pistorius answered that he didn't know if she knew or not. Reeva had stayed there by herself while Oscar was away, wouldn't Oscar have showed her how to work it if he was worried about her and/or his house? I don't understand how he wouldn't know if she could work it or not unless there's something I have wrong here.

You are making way too much common sense. To some, we need something more than this.

Some may argue, so what, if Oscar didn't show her the codes, maybe Reeva guessed them. Whatever that means he is still bloody paranoid because everyone in SA is paranoid, ok?

 

[katydid23]

That's interesting, except that even if RS knew how to use it, she may not have had access to it...

But according to what OP is saying about his version, she would have been there in the bed, right in the vicinity where the alarm remote would be. So the question would be WHY didn't he tell her to hit the panic button? If she had lived at his home for a week alone, she must have known how it worked.

Yet he told the court he didn't think she knew how. :waitasec:

I think the lady assessor is seeing that as an untruth told by OP.

 

[Feynman]

They are presumed innocent by the law. Big difference.

Are they? Then why are a lot of the "innocent" dressed in orange jumpsuits, traipsed around in handcuffs, and held behind bars?

 

[Val1]

Frank lived in a suite? OK, Frank's suite is a possibility. Or perhaps it was an argument about which of OP's dogs was cuter. But since this is the "trial discussion thread", I tend to stick to the versions of the DT and the PT.

In that case, why not the kitchen/dining area? RS had apparently eaten within two hours or so of being killed, maybe she was redoing those contracts on the dining table, the ones that OP claimed to have helped her with, even though she is the one with a law degree...

 

[wb180]

So many posters here have offered "it defies common sense ..." explanations for their points of view. Anyone who's done any hard science is wary of that kind of thing. It's not real sleuthing. I hate to do this, but here I go: Einstein once said "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." And that is pretty much true. Compare what we heard today from witnesses who live next door to OP and who seem to have heard little compared with witnesses who live nearly 3 football fields away who claim they heard lots more. That makes no sense!

I would love hard science.

Would love to hear how hard science works for OP's story. Right now, I don't see hard science being argued at all for OP's version other than emotive arguments (e.g. you aren't in his shoes, he is scared coz SA is paranoid of intruders, he's on stumps and vulnerable, he loved Reeva and Reeva loved him too, it's Nel's question that made OP write different versions of events, hear how he cries - he is so genuine, he screams like a woman, etc).

In fact, if we look at the hard science of this case, it looks like all the "hard science" experts agree with PT case. What experts have DT come up with?! Dixon?