Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[james83]

Does anybody have a sense of whether the defense 'scream' evidence is still coming? I think they've succeeded in leaving it an open question with the recent neighbour testimony, but if the issue is left at that I think they step into a hole I don't currently perceive them to be in.

They have to IMO, because what those neighbours testified suggest's they heard Oscar crying after the event, if they had heard What they perceived to be a man crying followed by Loud bang's they would have been great for the defence, as it was those witness's didn't actually add much of value for the defence.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Right or wrong, I think having the eyes of the world watching what transpires will have an impact on sentencing. South Africa is already inundated by allegations that rich white defendants are afforded a different brand of justice. Its possible not wanting that image perpetuated might have an effect - I don't think Masipa will be unduly unfair either though - just conscious, careful and conscientious.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I'm extremely impressed with Masipa. I've been sufficiently interested to read as much as I can about her and she's a dedicated individual held in high regard by those who know her. I've always admired people who've worked hard to achieve their goals and those who have the courage of their convictions. This is such an important trial for SA for many reasons and I believe she'll put everything into it to bring down a verdict that's fair and just.

One of the assessors Masipa has chosen sounds like an exceptional person to help shoulder this heavy burden. Janet Henzen-du Toit is "an expert in criminal justice, has Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation".

Sounds like a pretty good team to me.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com...ors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate#ixzz31KOAkadY

 

[BritsKate]

Mad props to anyone who has either the time or energy for multiple personas. I struggle enough with just one.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[lithgow1]

Another thing I was just thinking of is how does he explain not seeing her when he first woke up, other than what he described as the duvet going up or similar. The curtains were open and the balcony light was on IIRC. He'd have had to see more than that.

 

[BarnacleZA]

Barnacle, your scenario has lots of merit. I just have one question...
The defence has claimed that the direction of force related to the bruise on her lower back was upward - this was not challenged by the PT. A fragment rebounding off point F would be directionally downward.

Question: How do you reconcile the downward trajectory of the fragment with an upward direction of force associated with the bruise?

Ah, the luxury of the internet cross-examination...

I'm not sure of the exact height of the bruise, but on my version the bullet (core) would have ricocheted while she was still in the standing position. If you take into account the approximate angles in question it would strike her back closer to square and not significantly up or down...

To give you a bit of an idea... Not accurate in terms of scale. And there probably would have been slight changes in the angles... And of course her body could have been turned to some degree.

 

[JuneBug67]

They have to IMO, because what those neighbours testified suggest's they heard Oscar crying after the event, if they had heard What they perceived to be a man crying followed by Loud bang's they would have been great for the defence, as it was those witness's didn't actually add much of value for the defence.

I think they added credence to the idea of Oscar making noise in a high pitch, thus leaving it an open question. But I agree they have to do more. We're just getting awfully close to when Roux expects to be done and I'm going to be pretty disappointed if he doesn't follow through with the previous statement that that testimony would be coming. Right now I don't see a conviction for shooting Reeva with knowledge that it was her, but I think I would become a lot less sure of that if there isn't more offered on the screams.

 

[JudgeJudi]

They have to IMO, because what those neighbours testified suggest's they heard Oscar crying after the event, if they had heard What they perceived to be a man crying followed by Loud bang's they would have been great for the defence, as it was those witness's didn't actually add much of value for the defence.

Well, the DT's have brought in two ladies and had them scream in court to give a rendition of OP's voice. Why on earth would Roux have done that when the man himself is sitting right there in court. Can you seriously imagine how embarrassing that would have been for those women knowing the whole world is watching/listening?

All that's left to do now is bring in the PT ear witnesses and let OP himself scream a blood-curdling scream, and scream in both high and low pitch, intermingled. End of story.

 

[Viper]

Not at all. I won't really know if I know him/her as the simple questions I asked were never answered. Ah well, I won't lose any sleep over it. Maybe the questions I asked weren't quite as simple as I'd presumed.

BIB. Are you referring to your "question" (I would not call it a "question") about IP addresses being used to detect the source of a forum member and then correlate that to his/her second Username, by moderators sleuthing a complaint from you? Do you still require more information to answer your "question?"

 

[james83]

I think they added credence to the idea of Oscar making noise in a high pitch, thus leaving it an open question. But I agree they have to do more. We're just getting awfully close to when Roux expects to be done and I'm going to be pretty disappointed if he doesn't follow through with the previous statement that that testimony would be coming. Right now I don't see a conviction for shooting Reeva with knowledge that it was her, but I think I would become a lot less sure of that if there isn't more offered on the screams.

But crucially they both identified it as a man's cry, it's a fact that Oscar was crying after both set's of sound's had occurred, also Dr Stipp testifed that Oscar was crying whilst he was at Oscar's house.
Agree they need More, they need to show that Oscar is capable of such a scream that was described by the ear witness's.

 

[Karmady]

Since it's the weekend and the thread is somewhat slow, can someone who's been following for a long time answer wth happened to the boxes and boxes of steroids and related paraphernalia, including syringes, supposedly found at the scene? I'm reading some early threads (which is always very intereting lol) and the msm was carrying on about the steroids big time and saying that Oscar said he was holding them for a friend. Other reports around that time also said that Reeva was wearing a nightdress and that one of the shots happened in the bedroom....so maybe I shouldn't be surprised if nothing came of the steroids.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

hwow: What a find HFH!! Freudian slip maybe? An accidental truth from OP?

OP may well have been screaming at Reeva, but it wasn't to "get down and call the police" Quite the opposite.

Was Reeva going to call the police to report an assault? OP shot her to prevent that call?

BBM

I want to know, whether Roux tells his client the missteps and faults defecting the defense? Or tells he some time later or never ever??

 

[james83]

Well, the DT's have brought in two ladies and had them scream in court to give a rendition of OP's voice. Why on earth would Roux have done that when the man himself is sitting right there in court. Can you seriously imagine how embarrassing that would have been for those women knowing the whole world is watching/listening?

All that's left to do now is bring in the PT ear witnesses and let OP himself scream a blood-curdling scream, and scream in both high and low pitch, intermingled. End of story.

Also one of those ladies(nhglengethwa i believe) clearly stated after her rendition that it sounded like that but in a man's voice.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I expect you're right JJ, but this still means that the correlation of the forensic evidence and reconstruction of the ("alleged"!) crime is being done by counsel. I'm arguing that a significant part of that should be part of the forensic process.

I thought the forensics would have played a very significant part too, but recently most of the legal experts, and in particular Judge Greenland, have been saying that it's basically all going to come down to OP's state of mind at the time. I'm no lawyer so my opinion is worthless.

 

[DebinGA]

Well, the DT's have brought in two ladies and had them scream in court to give a rendition of OP's voice. Why on earth would Roux have done that when the man himself is sitting right there in court. Can you seriously imagine how embarrassing that would have been for those women knowing the whole world is watching/listening?

All that's left to do now is bring in the PT ear witnesses and let OP himself scream a blood-curdling scream, and scream in both high and low pitch, intermingled. End of story.

Judgejudi, I think you've answered the question of whether Roux will be entering into evidence a scream test done by OP, despite OP having told Nel under cross had he'd participated in one.

 

[soozieqtips]

Okay. I'd like to know what HTH stands for please!

 

[BarnacleZA]

If you were wondering if I'm another poster. No, I'm not.
(But I also know that my denial will make some even more suspicious. Standard Forum Protocol/Paranoia)

I've been reading here since about day 18 of the trial or so, but someone wondered about the background of Nel / Wolmarans yesterday, so I just decided to join as member to answer that, as I know a bit about that first-hand....

Barnacle is a standard username I use and if its not available, I use BarnacleZA... This persona also has twitter and facebook accounts. I have made other Oscar related posts on my own website some time ago...

 

[Viper]

Since it's the weekend and the thread is somewhat slow, can someone who's been following for a long time answer wth happened to the boxes and boxes of steroids and related paraphernalia, including syringes, supposedly found at the scene? I'm reading some early threads (which is always very intereting lol) and the msm was carrying on about the steroids big time and saying that Oscar said he was holding them for a friend. Other reports around that time also said that Reeva was wearing a nightdress and that one of the shots happened in the bedroom....so maybe I shouldn't be surprised if nothing came of the steroids.

The steroids (homeopathic remedy that includes pig testicles) was seized and investigated. OP backed away from the holding for a friend thing and said it was used for IIRC muscle fatigue or muscle injury, something like that.

The obvious reason to me for some of the earlier reports of Reeva first being shot in the bedroom is the blood trail from the bathroom through the bedroom. First responders could make the initial observation that Reeva ran bleeding in to the bathroom, IMO.

Not sure about how observers would see Reeva in a night dress...

 

[homegirl]

Not sure it's strange, but to my mind it highlights the inadequacy of the forensic recontruction. I know that the ballistics expert is different from the blood expert, who is different again from the pathologist and so on, but their findings need to be correlated to give us an accurate reconstruction of what happened inside that W.C.

The angle of the holes in the door, the position of the injuries, the behaviour of the bullets and fragments inside the body, the ricochets, the blood spatter in quantity, location, angle and force of projection...all of these are facts that need to be correlated. Instead of which we get the information piecemeal and we haven't even been told how much blood she had lost or how much blood was recovered in towels etc or whether the lav had been flushed. And we have experts vaguely alluding to error margins which are inadequately quantified.

Surely if each expert does his job and reports the exact facts with the proper error margin a computerized reconstruction of when, where and how Reeva was hit and fell could be produced.
I find it unacceptable that the only reconstruction that makes perfect sense to me is the one provided on WS by Barnacle and not the ones offered in court.

I am also frustrated with the compartmentalization of the forensic evidence. Why does Nel not point out the obvious. Reeva's arm could not have been close to the door when hit because there is no blood there,except for the blood trail made when OP moved Reeva into the bathroom. That wound would have bled immediately and copiously, it seems to me. That wound had to occur very close to where the blood pool was formed near the toilet. It also has to line up with one of the bullet holes in the door.

I am excited to see the photos Wolmarans took of all 4 bullet holes with a laser projected onto the walls. I wonder if any similar tests were done by Mangena and why they were not presented, if so.

I have been working with a 3D program, trying to ascertain where Reeva was, and in what position, when each shot hit her. I have had to guess at the bullet paths for all but the one which ricochet off of the wall. The lasers will nail down the bullet paths, if they are of reasonable clarity. I am going to be really ticked off if we aren't able to see them.

There are other things that should be obvious. Reeva could not have been lying on the floor, with her head on the bowl, because she would have been lying in the undisturbed blood pool. And because her body and the magazine rack would have to occupy the same space. That is impossible as far as I know. Oh, and that plank could not have been lying over the blood trail when OP dragged Reeva out of WC and into the bathroom. Are these things going to be left for closing argument? Grrrr.

 

[DebinGA]

Another thing I was just thinking of is how does he explain not seeing her when he first woke up, other than what he described as the duvet going up or similar. The curtains were open and the balcony light was on IIRC. He'd have had to see more than that.

IIRC OP added the bizarre detail of waking up, and before his eyes were open, scrubbing his face as he walked to retrieve the fans, and then always facing away from the bed until the moment he went for the gun. Absurd.

“I sat up in bed,” Pistorius said. “I put my head down, my hands on my head and rubbed my face. Reeva asked me if I couldn’t sleep. I said I can’t.”

 

[JudgeJudi]

<respectfully snipped>

After Dixon's testimony I was annoyed by Kelly Phelps on CNN saying that he was just laying a foundation, that others would follow and that Roux was a canny lawyer, and not mentioning how bad he had come across. Now looking back, Kelly had a bit of a smug look about her, a bit 'in the know', and now I have a hunch why.

I heard Kelly Phelps tonight too. She makes me want to scream like a man, scream loud like a man.