Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[soozieqtips]

Yep, and then it's going to be another 30 days assessment after that .. and then all back to court again .. this trial is just going to go on forever .. it's ridiculous.

It's not fair on Reeva's family either. Can you imagine how they must feel knowing it can just keep being dragged out?

 

[seattlechiquita]

ok so in a nutshell, Nel is looking for this assessment hoping for what? Have OP declared what?

 

[jay-jay]

So was RS, look what that got her....

Yes, that's true ..

 

[jay-jay]

It's not fair on Reeva's family either. Can you imagine how they must feel knowing it can just keep being dragged out?

Yup .. as I mentioned upthread, so much for OP caring and praying for them ..

 

[MsMarple]

From the original post:

No Voster is speaking clinically about delusions which cannot be physically true. Someone can have the misconception that their husband is cheating on them every night with a different woman and they may be wrong or right as it is a possibility. So it is not in the world of psychiatry considered delusional.

Now on the other hand if someone thinks their husband is having relations with a gerbil on the moon every night and sending her video tape of the event, that is delusional.

It is within the laws of physics that the police are out to get Oscar so it is not considered a delusion.

Bib and underlined by me:

Respectfully, that is a common misconception, and not the psychiatric definition of delusional.




http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/292991-overview



http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder

Thank you for that - you beat me to it.

I just wanted to add that the DSM-V now includes bizarre delusions under certain diagnoses.

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/changes from dsm-iv-tr to dsm-5.pdf

 

[Carmelita]

Vorster just gave the PT the explanation for the murder -OP's personality causes him to "fight" instead of flee.

But it's still murder. She did a great job of meshing her observations of his personality with what happened.

He's an aggressor. The law doesn't stipulate that violent people with anxiety should be treated wit kid gloves. In fact, that's why they have the laws and put people who are dangerous in jail.

Voster testimony did not suggest that he was an aggressor in the sense of a provocateur, her testimony suggested that his instinct would be to fight rather than flee given his deformity and GAD. There is a world of difference between the two.

 

[Carmelita]

I highly doubt a defence psych expert would even begin to contemplate malingering, Nel's wits aside.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

What a defense psychiatrist would consider should have no bearing on whether or not Nel asks a proper question. And I think the contrary is true a defense psychiatrist will always have to consider secondary gain when they are evaluating an individual otherwise their evaluation is useless. They should expect that question to be posed to them while on the stand.

 

[Greater Than]

V: In a way, his strict diet and training helped alleviate his anxiety, but at the same time the increasing media exposure meant he had to be more careful...

Teattime

Seems the summary of that was, OP traumatized by operation and then made fearful by;
Inadequate parenting
Loss of mother
Trying to appear normal
Trying to maintain success and cope with media

I guess the bologna sandwiches he'll be fed while he's incarcerated will not help his anxiety. Oh well!

 

[AlexUK]

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Uncle Arnold's house this evening :floorlaugh:

 

[Greater Than]

V: ....asked to remove his prosthesis. He was clearly very embarrassed. Balance without is pros is clearly very poor. He was clearly very vulnerable.

Give me a break! Was he embarrassed when 4 BILLION people saw him without his prosthesis at the Olympics in 2012?

 

[Carol70]

Truth be told, I think there is some truth in the fact that he was a "danger" to society considering his negligence with gun ownership, after all I have learned about his conduct, I can't be surprised that it all ended this way for him, it was almost the inevitable. It still stuns me when I think about how close someone came to loosing their life while innocently enjoying their lunch at Tasha's.

Today's big shocker for me was that he abuses alcohol excessively when not training..I honestly didn't see that comming and had quite a few debates back in the day not believing he would be a huge drinker...looks like I was wrong after all

 

[sicknote]

Yep, and then it's going to be another 30 days assessment after that .. and then all back to court again .. this trial is just going to go on forever .. it's ridiculous.

I just want my life back.....lol

 

[Carmelita]

Bib and underlined by me:

Respectfully, that is a common misconception, and not the psychiatric definition of delusional.




http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/292991-overview



http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder

I will have do drag up the DSM V as I am not sure that article is correct but it could be. I was under the impression that the delusions had to be outside of the law of physics such as everyone other than the individual was an FBI agent.

 

[sicknote]

Today's big shocker for me was that he abuses alcohol excessively when not training..I honestly didn't see that comming and had quite a few debates back in the day not believing he would be a huge drinker...looks like I was wrong after all

It's been a while since I've been legless on the drink and I'm Scottish.......

 

[lithgow1]

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in Uncle Arnold's house this evening :floorlaugh:

One of them probably would have picked up a gun and shot you.

 

[Duchy]

.. me too, I've got tears rolling down my face :floorlaugh:

me too :floorlaugh:

 

[Murphys_Law]

Another good one, James. This bit from Dr. Vorster confirmed something I've suspected and thought very important:

I think that's unquestionably true, and the main reason I've thought OP was most likely wearing his legs when he killed Reeva, since they'd argued for quite awhile and he wouldn't have done so on his stumps.

I agree and so apparently does Roux...he just does not know he agrees yet.

Consider this, Roux has been arguing for weeks that OP had his back to the far wall of the bathroom which is further away from the door by approx. 1 metre than where Mangena had set up the laser for bullet hole B.

Mangena set up the laser at exactly 220 cm from the door, at a height of 130cm...this is 7cm higher than OP's shoulder height of 123cm on his stumps. At that position, OP had to be on his prosthetics.

The further the distance from the door, the greater the height of the muzzle must be to pull off a 5 to 6 degree downward slope, as measured by Mangena, and verified by Wollie.

Now, keep in mind, the laser represents the fore point of the muzzle, so in a 2 hand stance, with arms (66cm in length) fully extended, his shoulders would have to be a tich higher.

Roux, god bless his little numeracy/spatially challenged brain, has been arguing all along that OP was shooting from farther away than 220cm ...
he has been in effect been leading the charge unwittingly that OP was wearing his prosthetics.

 

[Carmelita]

Is it a done deal Masipa is going to agree allow the application, because listening to the exchange again she sounds not at all convinced.

I don't know that she has any choice but to allow the *application Edited to clarify* it is my understanding that application simply means a request for sectioning.

I can apply to have anyone committed that I want to, but if the person is not a danger to himself or anyone else the application will get filed and the person will go about their day.

 

[G.bng]

Didn't the Dr. state that OP's condition is/was pathological?

That would open up the middle branch from that chart, correct?

I can't recall whether the Dr. said it was pathological or not because I was merely responding to a poster who said that SA law did not recognise "temporary insanity" which if this analysis is correct is not the case.

So yes she may well have said it was pathological, but I am sure she said something about OP knowing wrong from right but in the stress of that night situation in his fear and panic or whatever he may not have been able to apply that knowledge due to his GAD etc. What it will mean for OP, well yes he would be institutionalised indefinitely but it means zilch because it's the Ian Brady types of this world that stay forever, not the OP types, so he would be treated and released when a team of psychiatrists deemed he was no longer a danger. Reagan's shooter is out.

 

[Lyra500]

ok so in a nutshell, Nel is looking for this assessment hoping for what? Have OP declared what?

I don't think it is a question of Nel looking for anything. this situation was not instigated by him.


My understanding is as follows:

DT chose to field a psychiatrist who insinuated that OP's mental state might have a bearing on his degree of culpability. This was not part of their original defence and if it was part of their defence it should have been declared at the outset.

So - if OP's mental state is a significant factor then it should have been declared and the court now needs to assess him to see if this is a real issue.

If it is NOT an issue then it should never have been raised in testimony and needs to be thrown out - in other words the testimony of the psychiatrist might need to be discarded.

As soon as the psychiatrist introduced this issue into testimony there was a legal requirement for the claim to be investigated because if it held any weight, then continuing with a trial without a mental health assessment would actually breach the rules and be regarded as unfair to the defendant.

I would add that I am sure Nel does not believe OP is mentally ill - but having had the possibility raised by the DT it needs to be examined and dealt with to prevent them trying to fall back on it as mitigation at some point.