Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[MeeBee]

OP claimed before he shot Reeva that he had problems sleeping. Remember those late/middle of the night trips to the firing range? The smell of blood, well since he killed Reeva and had her blood pretty much all over him then I would hope that he can at times still smell it. If he couldn't then there would be cause for concern. IMO OP simply claims things in order to not take the blame for anything. He has proven this time and time again. The Tashas incident, he clearly was to blame for that and yet he still refuses to admit it. The only time he sortof took ownership for one of his own actions was when he was pushed while on the stand. And even then he had to add a BUT to it. Yes, he was responsible for shooting/killing Reeva BUT if only she had come out or spoken to him it wouldn't have happened.

MOO

There's no doubt OP has difficulty taking responsibility for his actions. That's a separate issue, though, I think.

 

[Hope4More]

That's fine if you hold a lot of faith in psychologists .. I personally don't, and I'm not fully confident that they will determine the correct diagnosis for OP. There is a lot riding on this with regard to whether they assess him correctly or not, and they may well assess him incorrectly as having GAD which in turn will bolster his version.

Oh, I have precious little faith in the psych profession, and less still in psych experts paid to testify. Chips falling doesn't mean reality landing. Just means...bring it on, whatever the conclusions are, let the attys duke it out over interpretation, and move on.

 

[TorisMom003]

To be totally fair, I find I often have a disdain for defence attorneys though I rarely openly criticise them. A few are exceptional and some are very good - obviously they're a necessity for the justice system but some (cough Baez cough) leave much to be desired when it comes to ethical standards.

Defending a defence attorney, ala Roux, is highly unusual for me personally. Though to that, I'd have to say if I can defend a defence attorney then perhaps others could possibly entertain how difficult and demanding a position a prosecutor is often in.

Both men, front and center in this trial, have earned their reputations with careers spanning decades. Both men, at least in my own personal perspective, are worthy of my respect...though one alone makes me blush while pondering/daydreaming/fantasizing about his brilliance. I'll leave ya'll to guess who.

JMO

Baez is in a class all his own, thank goodness. Fortunately his type are not that many.

I feel for Roux as he is put in a very difficult position. I truly don't think he knew what he was getting himself into until OP took the stand. You can tell that Nel respects Roux. That to me says alot.

Now Oldwage on the other hand.........:banghead: Don't like his style at all. Even just sitting in court he appears to think he is above it all, above everyone. The way he juts his nose in the air and then looks down on people. I have zero respect for him right now.

MOO

 

[lithgow1]

There's no doubt OP has difficulty taking responsibility for his actions. That's a separate issue, though, I think.

I'd tend to think of it as part of a pattern, one which now extends all the way to not wearing responsbility for killing someone, whether by accident or design.

 

[minor4th]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see \o/! Normally, you can tell which psychologist/s are more trustworthy and ethical and whether they're just blowing smoke...normally.

The fact that it's an impartial team that will be evaluating him is so important. IMO that's the way all psych testimony should be conducted and presented - but no matter what it will be subject to disagreement from some other psychologists

 

[minor4th]

I think he probably suffers from PTSD now, after the shooting. It's hard to imagine that he WOULDN'T have it.

 

[soozieqtips]

I think he probably suffers from PTSD now, after the shooting. It's hard to imagine that he WOULDN'T have it.

I would imagine that it would be more likely he was suffering from PSTD if he'd witnessed someone else murdering Reeva, rather than him being the actual murderer, especially if he did in fact know exactly who was behind that door. I know PTSD is a reaction to traumatic events, but I wonder how many people who have deliberately murdered someone suffer from it.

 

[lithgow1]

I never followed the Casey Anthony trial (for which I am now grateful) so can't comment on Baez but while we're also talking about prosecutors the only one I can compare Nel to is Juan Martinez, as it was reading coverage of this case when OP was first arrested that led me to Arizona via people's comments comparing the two defendents.

With that being the only other trial I've followed my opinion is that as effective as Martinez was, Nel is 'better'. He has the subtlety that Martinez lacked - he went hard on everyone whereas Nel adjusts his style to good effect. And he did get the former head of Interpol convicted which would have required immense skill and a lot of guts. It's one thing to take on a golden boy, another a highly placed political figure.

Other than highly respecting Nel, deeply disliking Pistorius, and admiring M'lady and June Steenkamp I don't have strong opinions on any of the others involved in this case, though the following quote from Julius Caesar does remind me of one person who sits on the defence side of courtroom:

'Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look. He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous.'

 

[JuneBug67]

Thinking more about it.....I can see why a mid-trial mandated assessment would make any defense atty upset. Interrupts his presentation, opens the door to the unknown and uncontrolled.

But what a huge benefit it is to the goal of trying to establish the truth of what happened. Hired DT psych experts can be paid to say anything, same for the State's.

This way neutral experts have a shot at peeping into OP's psyche. Kudos to SA's way of handling this....

I have recently been thinking that the DT's case has been generally more fractured because of scheduling issues. Nel had the month of March interrupted by not much more than tea, where the defence were delayed a week right out of the gate and have had interruptions of various lengths fairly regularly ever since. It certainly affects the sense of the coherence of the case from here. Some of that will probably be mitigated as the judge and assessors pore over the official record where those gaps are effectively gone.

And yes, you hope for a neutral person. But people are people and are seldom without their own biases and filters. I do wonder about the fairness to Oscar here given than he's got one psychologist, has just had interviews with a psychiatrist, and now will have to repeat that in some form three more times. I wonder if at some point you just run out of gas and emotion for the same story and the same set of life events. So much of the evidence in this case is subjective in nature. It's frustrating and worrying when all presumably any of us want is justice that reflects what really happened that night.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Hippity skippity day from North Carolina. Just getting to the party...late again, as usual. Lol. This insomniac finally fell asleep. Woo-hoo! Sleep is a good thing, but I need my fix. Hope my wish came true, and OP was sectioned, but since my wishes never, ever come true, I highly doubt it. Going back to page 1 to read all about it. Got my fingers crossed. Lol.
:seeya:

 

[Peliman]

I thought about this and I think you have a strong point. OP is DESPERATE now and has nothing left to lose. If he had any faith in his legal team then its gone now

It would not surprise to see him break away from further instructions and try to play the crazy card and to be honest if anyone could pull it off it would be oscar

Petting and talking to my imaginary dog as I type. Yes I've observed this while working criminally insane security lock-ups at a S. Fla State Hospital.

I'm an old timer mental health worker with 14 years in some capacity in the mental health field, many years ago and things have changed a good deal since then.

I've also been wondering if OP would play games with a possible DX that would minimize his sentencing. I tend to think he would based on what I've seen and heard from him at trial.

Pondering a moment

Do I think he's crazy, yeah crazy like a fox. A stress disorder? Only the DSM could come up with a stress disorder in order for those stressed about not having a stress disorder.

Speaking for myself he's showing no signs of psychosis or hallucinations, his claim of fear might be considered by some as delusional but I don't buy it. He's just not showing the classic signs, he can control himself.

I'd be more interested in a couple psychologist reports and tested a couple times on the MMPI. The report should be at least interesting, I await.

Only forensic psychiatrist can build birdcages in the sky for others to go live in. Strike that, lawyers are good at it too.

My imaginary dog loves you all.

ALL IMO

 

[atthelake]

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 2m
Also please stop with can OP act his way out of this.He can't! Its a team of doctors who have assessed 1000's of people.They won't be fooled

Please assure me that LaViolette from the Jodi trial wasn't driven outta the US and now is residing in SA! :floorlaugh: Call me cynical, but .......

 

[TorisMom003]

I would imagine that it would be more likely he was suffering from PSTD if he'd witnessed someone else murdering Reeva, rather than him being the actual murderer, especially if he did in fact know exactly who was behind that door. I know PTSD is a reaction to traumatic events, but I wonder how many people who have deliberately murdered someone suffer from it.

Since most of them relish reliving their crime of killing someone, I'd say not many at all, if any.

OP has not kept himself away from other people, even going so far as to be around "friends" that knew Reeva as well. OP has not stopped doing the things that he loves to do, but instead asked for and was granted a change in his bail conditions so that he could continue to do the things he loved before he killed Reeva. OP claims that he never wants to handle another firearm again, however I do not believe him and feel that was simply for the court and if given a chance he would continue with his plans to become a gun collector.

In short, I have seen no signs of OP suffering from PTSD. But it makes a good excuse for mitigating factors during his sentencing, doesn't it?

MOO

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

Generalised Anxiety Disorder - What it could mean?

Having listened this morning to the judgement, I have spent some time considering what this actually means in terms of impact on the trial.

Consider a couple of scenarios. Firstly, that Roux has planned this in the full knowledge that OP has GAD having had him assessed previously. Then he coached Vorster superbly, knowing that Nel will pick up on her words and be forced to call for an assessment. Clever defence. Bravo. It has worked.

Scenario number two is that Vorster genuinely slipped up and Nel pounced, seizing an opportunity to box the defence off. Well done Nel.

If the resulting assessment finds OP doesn't have GAD, then it is back to one of two defences for shooting Reeva plus no defence for the Firearms charges.

Should the assessment find he has GAD? I am afraid it is a 'So What?' GAD is a common disorder which affects 1 in 25 people and crucially, does not affect the ability to distinguish what is reasonable in any given situation. OP knew what he was doing, even if in a heightened state of anxiety. He also still has no defence for the firearms charges.

My own opinion is that Roux did not plan for this. I think about the defence witnesses, the so called experts and the odd Pistorian on the stand and it is clear the defence is a shambles. It is not the approach of a professional and as I alluded to yesterday, someone else is running this trial and whoever is pulling the strings, has rendered Roux impotent.

 

[lithgow1]

I have recently been thinking that the DT's case has been generally more fractured because of scheduling issues. Nel had the month of March interrupted by not much more than tea, where the defence were delayed a week right out of the gate and have had interruptions of various lengths fairly regularly ever since. It certainly affects the sense of the coherence of the case from here. Some of that will probably be mitigated as the judge and assessors pore over the official record where those gaps are effectively gone.

And yes, you hope for a neutral person. But people are people and are seldom without their own biases and filters. I do wonder about the fairness to Oscar here given than he's got one psychologist, has just had interviews with a psychiatrist, and now will have to repeat that in some form three more times. I wonder if at some point you just run out of gas and emotion for the same story and the same set of life events. So much of the evidence in this case is subjective in nature. It's frustrating and worrying when all presumably any of us want is justice that reflects what really happened that night.

I think Pistorius is getting more than his share of 'fair' and if he is telling the truth about Reeva getting up and going to the toilet in total darkness so that he didn't notice a thing while he was flaffing about with a fan and an LED light then he shouldn't have too much to worry about IMO. However, if it's all an elaborate lie then ....

 

[Viper]

IMO he doesn't act like a man with PTSD. While there are aspects that he has tried to claim, hiding in the closet/cabinet in the middle of the night, he has shown by his actions, going out on the town (when crime is "high") with buds drinking and flirting it up, that he is normal by most standards.

MOO

BIB. I don't recall Dr. V addressing this. His actions are so extreme, hard to attribute them to him just worrying. V gave the impression that OP had designed coping strategies that allowed him to appear completely normal. What about the nightmares of the smell of blood in the WC? The psych team will have this information.

BTW. OP did see a psychiatrist the week after the murder. I think that was the only report that was given to V. Where are his patient records of his other psychiatrist and his psychologist?

 

[minor4th]

Since most of them relish reliving their crime of killing someone, I'd say not many at all, if any.



OP has not kept himself away from other people, even going so far as to be around "friends" that knew Reeva as well. OP has not stopped doing the things that he loves to do, but instead asked for and was granted a change in his bail conditions so that he could continue to do the things he loved before he killed Reeva. OP claims that he never wants to handle another firearm again, however I do not believe him and feel that was simply for the court and if given a chance he would continue with his plans to become a gun collector.



In short, I have seen no signs of OP suffering from PTSD. But it makes a good excuse for mitigating factors during his sentencing, doesn't it?



MOO

Have you seen him retching in court and sweating and covering his ears? I think those are classic PTSD avoidance responses to triggers.

 

[Zuri]

Just catching up. Thanks to all of you for your excellent posts. I wish those around OP had suggested counseling and treatment PRIOR to his shooting of Reeva. Hindsight is always 20/20. Given his age, immaturity, successes, accolades, fame, recklessness, complicated by GAD or PTSD, this should have been addressed far sooner. Tragic. Reeva did not have to die. JMV

 

[MeeBee]

I would imagine that it would be more likely he was suffering from PSTD if he'd witnessed someone else murdering Reeva, rather than him being the actual murderer, especially if he did in fact know exactly who was behind that door. I know PTSD is a reaction to traumatic events, but I wonder how many people who have deliberately murdered someone suffer from it.

Most people who deliberately murder are not normal and incapable of getting PTSD. OP doesn't appear to be sociopathic. Don't soldiers sometimes get PTSD from having to kill other people? It's possible...and it's also possible he suffers from PTSD because his story is true. IMO.

 

[Zuri]

IMO, the hypervigilence, need for guns, security, people around him all the time, insecurity, anxiety and other known and unknown traits, could be indicative of PTSD. I truly hope he gets the help he desperately needs. JMV