Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[TorisMom003]

Have you seen him retching in court and sweating and covering his ears? I think those are classic PTSD avoidance responses to triggers.

I have. I have also heard from OP more than once "I'm fighting for my life!" See that's the problem here. OP is concerned with what this means for him. I don't see that any of his actions are for what he did to Reeva, they are for himself because he can not walk away from this with a simple slap on the wrist.

It is known that covering ones ears does not help stop the sound from entering the ears and the person hearing what they are trying to ignore anyway, yes? It is known that sweating is also a sign of being nervous, yes? It is also known that when one is nervous/concerned for ones own well being (life on the line) that one can retch, yes? It is known that some people can make themselves retch quite easily, yes? The point is, how is it known that his actions are because of PTSD, or for killing Reeva, instead of because his own lifestyle and address is in danger of changing?

PTSD often times comes with guilt. Has OP shown any guilt for any of his actions? Has OP shown any guilt for killing Reeva? Or has OP blamed anyone and everyone (including Reeva herself) for his actions and killing Reeva?

MOO

 

[Zuri]

Taking all the emotion out of it, OP may very well have compounding factors attributing to PTSD. That does not excuse his killing Reeva, but may go a long way towards explaining some of his behavior in court. JMV

 

[Viper]

IMO, the hypervigilence, need for guns, security, people around him all the time, insecurity, anxiety and other known and unknown traits, could be indicative of PTSD. I truly hope he gets the help he desperately needs. JMV

PTSD? I might be inclined to agree, but... He was just evaluated by a Forensic Psychiatrist. If he had PTSD don't you think that V would have discussed that in depth? Nel tried to get her to link GAD to PTSD and she did, but she stayed firm that he had GAD prior to the murder.

 

[Ncl1968]

Have you seen him retching in court and sweating and covering his ears? I think those are classic PTSD avoidance responses to triggers.

Could also be classic denial and not wanting to see the physical damages his actions caused

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yes, like when the Dr said OP and his father had a falling out when OP was 19... yet according to media reports it was only since OP killed RS that things got bad, presumably because he was "bad press" for his son...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pistorius-father-son-carries-gun-government-won-protect-whites-article-1.1279832



http://www.sport24.co.za/Multimedia/Olympics2012/Pistorius-at-the-Olympics-20120806

Father Henk Pistorius, left, and surgeon Gerry Versfeld watch double-amputee runner Oscar Pistorius compete in the Olympics from Johannesburg. (AP Photo/Jon Gambrell)

Log in for a minute:

Henke is looking very proud and Versfeld is completely looking like a woman.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I share your concerns but again, this only applies if the court accepts OP's version and disregards the state's evidence. It seems a big deal now I know but the state have built a solid case against him and I can't see the court completely pushing that to one side because it believes OP's story and found him to be a credible and truthful witness. Glass half full I guess is MO.

Yes, you are right. This latest event has quite thrown me to the point of wondering if OP has a chance of getting away with murder. I keep telling myself Nel knows what he is doing and then I wonder, as has been suggested, was Roux clever enough to bring this on. He seemed quite emotional when Nel threw this into the arena - was it a big act? Uncle Pistorius seems quite cool about the whole issue. I couldn't watch this morning's court proceedings as I had an appointment to keep. I need to search out a video to watch what happened.

I haven't been able to listen to radio either. What did WhoopWhoop have to say? Anything interesting?

 

[G.bng]

Not just additional, but independent psychiatric & psychological opinion.

And Roux happy and in full agreement today.

I think Roux got mixed up yesterday as there were legal commentators already explaining that it could be a very good thing for OP's defence after his dismal testimony.

 

[lithgow1]

Yes, you are right. This latest event has quite thrown me to the point of wondering if OP has a chance of getting away with murder. I keep telling myself Nel knows what he is doing and then I wonder, as has been suggested, was Roux clever enough to bring this on. He seemed quite emotional when Nel threw this into the arena - was it a big act? Uncle Pistorius seems quite cool about the whole issue. I couldn't watch this morning's court proceedings as I had an appointment to keep. I need to search out a video to watch what happened.

I haven't been able to listen to radio either. What did WhoopWhoop have to say? Anything interesting?

I didn't hear anything on whoop whoop - by the time I got there it was just a recorded message about when they would next be on the air. The first link below is a good summing up of today and the second one has enough articles to get you up to speed and keep you out of mischief.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-05-14-pistorius-trial-week-8-day-3/#.U3OmZfmSySp

http://www.news24.com/search?q=pistorius

 

[G.bng]

The fact that the judge on her own has introduced mental defect as a possible defense is a huge win for the defense. Like it or not.

I am really going to have to listen to it all and do the transcript this time because IMBW but iirc at least to me it was Nel who first introduced the possibility of OP possibly having this defence yesterday or the day before, either during his cross of Vorster or when arguing with Roux about it. I think it was yesterday.

 

[TorisMom003]

IMO, the hypervigilence, need for guns, security, people around him all the time, insecurity, anxiety and other known and unknown traits, could be indicative of PTSD. I truly hope he gets the help he desperately needs. JMV

What hypervigilence? OP "slept" with the balcony sliding doors open, ladders outside on the ground under that balcony, a broken downstairs window that was that way for more than a couple of days, not sure if his security monitors/beams in the yard were functioning properly or even on the walls, cars left on the driveway instead of in the garage and no security bars on any of the windows or doors of his home.

His "need for guns" could have been more than a want than a need. He sure did enjoy shooting that watermelon and watching it explode. Perhaps the guns, and carrying one at all times, was more of a macho male thing instead of a fearful/PTSD thing.

The security I covered already up above.

The need for people to be around him.....alot of people need to have people around them for many different reasons. They could be social people, they could have a need to have their ego stroked, doesn't mean it leans towards PTSD.

The insecurity. Well, he is kind of an arse personality wise. He tends to get pissy when things don't go his way. I suppose that could lead to him being insecure because most people of substance would not want to be with someone with those traits for a long period of time.

I'm not sure where the anxiety is coming from. I haven't seen it except in court where he is facing guilty charges for murder and three gun/ammunition charges.

MOO

 

[Zuri]

PTSD? I might be inclined to agree, but... He was just evaluated by a Forensic Psychiatrist. If he had PTSD don't you think that V would have discussed that in depth? Nel tried to get her to link GAD to PTSD and she did, but she stayed firm that he had GAD prior to the murder.

I am just posing the possibility of PTSD. I don't know if he has it or not. Truthfully, it has only been since 2005, that more research and understanding of PTSD has come forth due to returning soldiers from the wars in the Middle East. I don't know if Dr. V was able to accurately make any diagnosis of any kind in the short amount of time she spent with OP. Do I think the diagnosis of any disorder will affect the outcome? No. I just wish he had sought help or help could have been provided to him a long time ago. Reeva paid the ultimate price and she deserves justice.

 

[Magdalyn]

There is simply no way Roux did not know that Nel would request a state assessment, I think the referral may have been a surprise but the result is what Roux wanted, Oscar’s capacity is now in play due to the state’s request. Instead of the Defense bringing up Oscar’s mental health and the possibility of incapacity and the prosecution arguing against it, the prosecution has actually put the possibility of it on the table.

Snipped for focus:

Quick question for you and your attorney friend.

If Roux wanted a state assessment, thought it would help Oscar's defense, why didn't he simply ask the judge for one right out of the gate?

 

[minor4th]

I have. I have also heard from OP more than once "I'm fighting for my life!" See that's the problem here. OP is concerned with what this means for him. I don't see that any of his actions are for what he did to Reeva, they are for himself because he can not walk away from this with a simple slap on the wrist.



It is known that covering ones ears does not help stop the sound from entering the ears and the person hearing what they are trying to ignore anyway, yes? It is known that sweating is also a sign of being nervous, yes? It is also known that when one is nervous/concerned for ones own well being (life on the line) that one can retch, yes? It is known that some people can make themselves retch quite easily, yes? The point is, how is it known that his actions are because of PTSD, or for killing Reeva, instead of because his own lifestyle and address is in danger of changing?



PTSD often times comes with guilt. Has OP shown any guilt for any of his actions? Has OP shown any guilt for killing Reeva? Or has OP blamed anyone and everyone (including Reeva herself) for his actions and killing Reeva?



MOO

Of course he's concerned about what this means to him. How could a defendant facing many years in jail not be concerned about how his life will be effected? That's not realistic, and it says nothing about OP other than he's having a normal concern for his future.

You can come up with malignant reasons or excuses why OP is exhibiting those behaviors, but IMO those are classic PTSD behaviors.

And no, I wouldn't say that most PTSD sufferers feel guilt. A person with PTSD is typically a victim of violence or an observer of an extremely traumatic event. I don't think guilt is involved. But OP has said he feels guilty for killing Reeva in any event - but that's not related to PTSD

 

[TorisMom003]

I am just posing the possibility of PTSD. I don't know if he has it or not. Truthfully, it has only been since 2005, that more research and understanding of PTSD has come forth due to returning soldiers from the wars in the Middle East. I don't know if Dr. V was able to accurately make any diagnosis of any kind in the short amount of time she spent with OP. Do I think the diagnosis of any disorder will affect the outcome? No. I just wish he had sought help or help could have been provided to him a long time ago. Reeva paid the ultimate price and she deserves justice.

If OP can not admit any wrongdoing on his part about anything, what are the chances that he would be willing to seek help or even accept help that would have been provided to him? If a person feels that they are always right, would they really think that they could be wrong and that they need to talk to someone in order to help themselves?

MOO

 

[minor4th]

Could also be classic denial and not wanting to see the physical damages his actions caused

I think you're describing PTSD

 

[TorisMom003]

Of course he's concerned about what this means to him. How could a defendant facing many years in jail not be concerned about how his life will be effected? That's not realistic, and it says nothing about OP other than he's having a normal concern for his future.

You can come up with malignant reasons or excuses why OP is exhibiting those behaviors, but IMO those are classic PTSD behaviors.

And no, I wouldn't say that most PTSD sufferers feel guilt. A person with PTSD is typically a victim of violence or an observer of an extremely traumatic event. I don't think guilt is involved. But OP has said he feels guilty for killing Reeva in any event - but that's not related to PTSD

When did he supposedly say this? He admitted that it was his fault/took responsibilty of killing Reeva (after being pushed by Nel) and then added a but to it. If only she had come out or spoken to him then he wouldn't have shot and killed her. So in reality it is Reeva's fault that she was killed, according to OP.

MOO

 

[BritsKate]

I never followed the Casey Anthony trial (for which I am now grateful) so can't comment on Baez but while we're also talking about prosecutors the only one I can compare Nel to is Juan Martinez, as it was reading coverage of this case when OP was first arrested that led me to Arizona via people's comments comparing the two defendents.

With that being the only other trial I've followed my opinion is that as effective as Martinez was, Nel is 'better'. He has the subtlety that Martinez lacked - he went hard on everyone whereas Nel adjusts his style to good effect. And he did get the former head of Interpol convicted which would have required immense skill and a lot of guts. It's one thing to take on a golden boy, another a highly placed political figure.

Other than highly respecting Nel, deeply disliking Pistorius, and admiring M'lady and June Steenkamp I don't have strong opinions on any of the others involved in this case, though the following quote from Julius Caesar does remind me of one person who sits on the defence side of courtroom:

'Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look. He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous.'

My one shamelessly off topic post of the day...if you'll indulge me.


My husband stopped following trials with me after a few surprising outcomes - the Anthony acquittal being the last. He thinks he's bad luck for cases I follow, knows we both blame him for outcomes I don't foresee, and actually wishes to see old age. :biggrin:

If trial watching becomes a full time hobby for you (lots of new posters leave us posttrial ), you'll find attorneys both sides of every conceivable personality and aptitude. It really can prove fascinating.

I've literally been lulled to sleep by a prosecutor with the personality of a wall while another I still reference as 'one of the best' even though she's long since retired from practice. I admire Martinez, Ashton, Distaso and many others but Nel is my first crush ever - at least on a prosecutor.

This trial, in particular, has gifted us who have been here awhile with some amazing new posters (like yourself) sharing their insights - I for one really hope all of you stay on once this trial's concluded. I tend to get a bit nostalgic towards the end of a trial too - fair warning this is likely not to be the last post encouraging you to stay. It's always a bit sad when a trial ends and everybody goes different directions after posting together, daily, for months on end.

Fortunately, I get an unexpected grace period.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[minor4th]

Most people who deliberately murder are not normal and incapable of getting PTSD. OP doesn't appear to be sociopathic. Don't soldiers sometimes get PTSD from having to kill other people? It's possible...and it's also possible he suffers from PTSD because his story is true. IMO.

And police men/women. Very common for them to develop PTSD related to having to shoot a bad guy

 

[minor4th]

When did he supposedly say this? He admitted that it was his fault/took responsibilty of killing Reeva (after being pushed by Nel) and then added a but to it. If only she had come out or spoken to him then he wouldn't have shot and killed her. So in reality it is Reeva's fault that she was killed, according to OP.



MOO

He said it to Vorster

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Oscar is looking the same embarrassed and in love, I find. Think, the girl with green blazer is Leah.