Trial Discussion Thread #46 - 14.07.7, Day 37

[Greater Than]

The words "nullify a threat" seem very precise and chosen with care, but I don't see how they excuse OP in any way.

He's attempting to claim it was putative self defense.

The problem with that is there was no threat. Another problem is he used excessive force by firing four times. And last, but certainly not least, he passed the firearm competency test, which specifically asked about the lawfulness of firing at an unseen target...OP correctly answered that it is unlawful to do so.

 

[AJ_DS]

Does anyone believe I missed something or got something wrong in the following summary of Oscar's version of events ?

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinion and knowledge.

 

[jay-jay]

Deb, That it is illegal. I know we discussed this many, many threads ago but can not remember exactly where it was now.

.. and OP knew it, too .. he had to take an exam in order to obtain his firearms licence and it included those questions which he answered correctly (so he was already fully aware that shooting someone dead behind a closed door is classed as murder). That has been entered as evidence (that he took the exam, I mean, and the questions he answered).

 

[Figuring]

What a half-baked undertaking this show was. Off the top of my head, a couple of things that practically gave me hives:

The show host asks Roder about how 4 neighbours report having heard a man and woman yelling and screaming and fighting before the gunshots. Tells Roder something to the effect that those reports are "crucial." Then Roder says "Oh yes, it's ABSOLUTELY crucial!" and Roder proceeds to go on about gun shots vs. cricket bat sounds, saying neighbours confused those two sounds. He does not (and reporter doesn't make him) address the sounds of a man and woman fighting at ALL. (26 min. mark)

Roder reads some random quote from some official sounding organization being projected on to a wall that stresses "veracity" of OP's "version", but the quote is only stating that the blood spatter on the wall "matches" OP's statement that he carried her down the stairs. This is the only part of his story that is not in dispute!!

Watching this drove something home to me, I'm sure it wasn't the intended effect: how LONG it took him to actually call for help...

Voice over: "These are pictures of the interior of his place....including a cabinet filled with his sunglasses." WTF?! (8 min. mark)

Poor Steencamp's are used as a foil - all they get air time for is to ask a few rhetorical questions, "How did this happen?" -- And OP's people get to answer...

Lastly, the Evidence Room's CGI animation is totally wack. Reminds me of a "virtual reality film from the early 90s "Lawnmower Man."

 

[eimajjjj]

Does anyone believe I missed something or got something wrong in the following summary of Oscar's version of events ?

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinion and knowledge.

View attachment 54328

Seems on form to me.

I actually followed that through chronologically and if you leave out all the other circumstantial evidence, improbabilities, inconsistencies, OP's character and witness statements, it seems bizarrely plausible!

However, we do have circumstantial evidence, improbabilities, inconsistencies, OP's character and witness statements.

 

[Chelly]

If Defense rests tomorrow, wonder how many days Nel and Roux will need to prepare closing statements.

 

[Interested Bystander]

There are two more videos up on Judge Chris Greenland’s Channel on You Tube. Both quite interesting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn7LwJTZhxU

the reasonable/unreasonable disabled person


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6DO7b8PLmo

the reasonable/unreasonable disabled person continued

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think his alibi fails in so many ways but one that jumps out at me is that he shouts whilst in the bathroom for the intruder to "get out". Reeva would have been able to determine he was in the bathroom due to the closeness of his voice and the fact that tiled walls tend to echo a little. If everything between them was OK (as he claims) IMO she would definitely have said something along the lines "I'm in the toilet Oscar. What is going on? Why are you shouting?".

 

[delilah]

Just finished watching today's proceedings. Aside from Derman's shower of a performance and Nel's pit bull x, I did also enjoy seeing Batman staring adoringly at Nel throughout and chuckling at Derman's discomfort. Maybe he was thinking "people said I was a rubbish witness, but just listen to THIS guy!"

 

[sleuth-d-]

watched the video, and the way it is cut together/edited highlights to me the chilling difference between his 'act;broken man;i was so terribly vulnerable scared;green bucket;vomit pathetic-trembly' courtroom voice and his matter-of-fact re-telling voice for the 3d guys.

what a fraud and a liar.

 

[jay-jay]

Just finished watching today's proceedings. Aside from Derman's shower of a performance and Nel's pit bull x, I did also enjoy seeing Batman staring adoringly at Nel throughout and chuckling at Derman's discomfort. Maybe he was thinking "people said I was a rubbish witness, but just listen to THIS guy!"

Yes, I was watching him too! (just been catching up via youtube and it turned out to be more interesting than I thought it would be!) He looked like he was going to punch the air, saying 'yesssss!' at one point, when Nel had caught the professor out on something (forget 'what' now ..)

 

[pandax81]

So there are 3 small pieces of footage where OP is at Uncle's house explaining and demonstrating to Scott Roder, who is filming, what happened some months after the killing. OP is explaining from when he was at the end of the passageway after hearing the toilet door shut up to the shooting. This footage is never demonstrated by or discussed by Scott Roder and looks like genuine working footage not intended for viewing, unlike all the other animations etc, and it may have been leaked.

It is crucially different to his version in court - he considers there to be one intruder only, then he comes round the corner and after checking the intruder was not waiting there, presumes the person is inside the toilet, but starts checking the bathroom just in case, then while still in the middle of checking the bathroom he hears the noise and fires 4 shots.

All the evidence about successfully making sure the bathroom was clear, being worried about someone on the ladder and multiple intruders, looking worryingly and constantly between window and toilet, holding the gun loosely resting in hand for balance, waiting for some time with fear building up, keeping quiet while coming round the corner but then shouting "get out” etc at the door when knew bathroom was clear is totally missing and contradicted

Footage 1

• "I was like this against the cupboard" *he’s at 45 degrees, left hand at waist height resting on imaginary passageway cupboards, right hand fully outstretched shoulder height, elbow fully extended, holding imaginary gun*
• "and I came round onto the wall" *takes a few steps, moves left hand off cupboards and onto imaginary back wall of bathroom*
• "and then when I could get in far enough like I looked around the corner like this and then I knew that the, Obviously from hearing the door I presumed that the person was inside in the toilet"

Footage 2

* they have moved to different part of room, clearly to pick up where left off, as there is alcove which better imitates the bathroom entrance and the walls/corner involved*

• "and then I was shouting for Reeva the whole time, shouting for her to call the police"
• Roder - "you never really had your shoulder or your back against the wall?"
• "yeah I did, I mean when I came into the bathroom I wanted to get as far away from this wall *touches imaginary bathroom wall which separates bathroom from passage* in case the person was like right here *indicates space directly in front of same wall*
• "so I came right up against the wall here you know" *touches the imaginary back bathroom wall and goes back into position left off from Footage 1 with left hand and shoulder against back wall* "and I kind of bent forward to look" *leans forward and bends down slightly with shoulder still against back wall*
• "I didn’t want to just like walk in around this corner" *touches wall that separates bathroom from passageway* "because I knew that if I had to be in contact" *presses palms together firmly* "or within close proximity to someone without my prosthetic legs on I wouldn’t be able to defend myself"

Footage 3

*we can tell that in terms of raw footage this is not a direct continuation from footage 2, but we are in the same part of the Uncle's room and back to discussing the same point in time*

• "So I was still busy checking the bathroom" *goes back to leaning forward / bending down again in same position from footage 2, arm is outstretched but this time elbow slightly flexed though hand is still clearly at shoulder height*
• "and I heard the noise and I fired 4 shots" *he makes some gestures flexing his wrist while saying this*

 

[dingbat]

There's been a round-up program on Sky News every day after the trial and now and then they have this South African lawyer on it. He's nothing like Booth or any of the other experts who comment on the trial, he's quite blunt: OP is guilty. And it's hilarious how much this perturbs the broadcaster who has to allow a bit of mystery, objectivity and discussion on the show.

On one of the first days commentary, he was asked what he would do if he were the defence and his reply was: I would have pleaded guilty to begin with, shown remorse and hoped for a lenient sentence. The last time he was on he was literally laughing at the absurdity of the latest witnesses and attempt to bring in general 'disability means likely to murder' scenarios.

It was from him that I got the 'verdict must have been reached a long time ago' I mentioned in a previous post as he said those words verbatim.

Don't underestimate the need of media, experts and commentators to pretend there's a mystery on what this verdict will be just to keep ratings high.

It's a pretty open-shut case for us all and has been said as such by experts brave enough in the media.

Casey Anthony's case was also open and shut - but still she was aquited of murdering her daughter... :gaah:

 

[yozzdi]

The only person in the toilet was Reeva and she was standing close to and facing the door according to all the evidence.
Who moved the magazine rack to make the sound OP is saying that he heard?

I'm interested in your opinion.

Yes, I agree. The magazine rack was at the back of the toilet, and Reeva was at the front of the the toilet. Moreover, I recall that OP testimony was that he shot as soon as he heard the sound of the mag rack moving. So how could Reeva have caused that sound?

 

[BritsKate]

The cases aren't even similar though and Casey Anthony was kind of a fluke. For a start, this isn't a jury trial. A jury may be more inclined, in my opinion, to be swayed by celebrity status. This case will be decided on the black and white of South Africa's laws. Ultimately, he has admitted to killing Reeva. As such, I believe an outright acquittal is an impossibility.

JMO

 

[wb180]

The cases aren't even similar though and Casey Anthony was kind of a fluke. For a start, this isn't a jury trial. A jury may be more inclined, in my opinion, to be swayed by celebrity status. This case will be decided on the black and white of South Africa's laws. Ultimately, he has admitted to killing Reeva. As such, I believe an outright acquittal is an impossibility.

JMO

Yes, all his defences (self defense, involuntary, mental disability) haven't been proven and so it's time for Masipa to hand him a long sentence.

 

[Greater Than]

Access Hollywood in the U.S. is now showing the "private footage" of OP moving around on his stumps from the re-enactment video.

It's officially gone viral. :floorlaugh:

 

[Feynman]

Yes, I agree. The magazine rack was at the back of the toilet, and Reeva was at the front of the the toilet. Moreover, I recall that OP testimony was that he shot as soon as he heard the sound of the mag rack moving. So how could Reeva have caused that sound?

??? The magazine rack was toward the front of the toilet. See

http://www.all4women.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius/where-was-the-magazine-rack

 

[Cherwell]

??? The magazine rack was toward the front of the toilet. See

http://www.all4women.co.za/news/oscar-pistorius/where-was-the-magazine-rack

It depends how people are defining front, back, left and right. As you look in through the door? Or as you are seated on the loo?
There's a similar confusion as to the sides of a bed - as you face the bed? or as you lie on it?

 

[loohoo]

In reading OP's detailed recounting of his actions that night (in the quoted post below), it's striking how this compares to his constant insistence under cross-examination that he "cannot recall" or "doesn't remember" the precise sequence of events or his movements.

So there are 3 small pieces of footage where OP is at Uncle's house explaining and demonstrating to Scott Roder, who is filming, what happened some months after the killing. OP is explaining from when he was at the end of the passageway after hearing the toilet door shut up to the shooting. This footage is never demonstrated by or discussed by Scott Roder and looks like genuine working footage not intended for viewing, unlike all the other animations etc, and it may have been leaked.

It is crucially different to his version in court - he considers there to be one intruder only, then he comes round the corner and after checking the intruder was not waiting there, presumes the person is inside the toilet, but starts checking the bathroom just in case, then while still in the middle of checking the bathroom he hears the noise and fires 4 shots.

All the evidence about successfully making sure the bathroom was clear, being worried about someone on the ladder and multiple intruders, looking worryingly and constantly between window and toilet, holding the gun loosely resting in hand for balance, waiting for some time with fear building up, keeping quiet while coming round the corner but then shouting "get out” etc at the door when knew bathroom was clear is totally missing and contradicted

Footage 1

• "I was like this against the cupboard" *he’s at 45 degrees, left hand at waist height resting on imaginary passageway cupboards, right hand fully outstretched shoulder height, elbow fully extended, holding imaginary gun*
• "and I came round onto the wall" *takes a few steps, moves left hand off cupboards and onto imaginary back wall of bathroom*
• "and then when I could get in far enough like I looked around the corner like this and then I knew that the, Obviously from hearing the door I presumed that the person was inside in the toilet"

Footage 2

* they have moved to different part of room, clearly to pick up where left off, as there is alcove which better imitates the bathroom entrance and the walls/corner involved*

• "and then I was shouting for Reeva the whole time, shouting for her to call the police"
• Roder - "you never really had your shoulder or your back against the wall?"
• "yeah I did, I mean when I came into the bathroom I wanted to get as far away from this wall *touches imaginary bathroom wall which separates bathroom from passage* in case the person was like right here *indicates space directly in front of same wall*
• "so I came right up against the wall here you know" *touches the imaginary back bathroom wall and goes back into position left off from Footage 1 with left hand and shoulder against back wall* "and I kind of bent forward to look" *leans forward and bends down slightly with shoulder still against back wall*
• "I didn’t want to just like walk in around this corner" *touches wall that separates bathroom from passageway* "because I knew that if I had to be in contact" *presses palms together firmly* "or within close proximity to someone without my prosthetic legs on I wouldn’t be able to defend myself"

Footage 3

*we can tell that in terms of raw footage this is not a direct continuation from footage 2, but we are in the same part of the Uncle's room and back to discussing the same point in time*

• "So I was still busy checking the bathroom" *goes back to leaning forward / bending down again in same position from footage 2, arm is outstretched but this time elbow slightly flexed though hand is still clearly at shoulder height*
• "and I heard the noise and I fired 4 shots" *he makes some gestures flexing his wrist while saying this*