Trial Discussion Thread #48

[soozieqtips]

Slightly off topic, but I mentioned earlier how we record all emergency calls in the UK. Today, a man was found guilty of killing his girlfriend's six-week-old baby, while he was babysitting for a few hours. During the trial, text messages he sent to the mother were read out, texts that said the baby was fine and sleeping. However, the emergency call he'd made was recorded and used against him.

Throughout his trial he had insisted that Alfie had simply stopped breathing and he had frantically battled to revive him, giving mouth-to-mouth and CPR, until paramedics arrived. But Pearce was heard to say that Alfie was cold during his urgent 999 call to the ambulance service on August 16 last year,
suggesting a considerable amount of time had passed before he had acted.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/alfie-sullock-mothers-disappointment-michael-7525441

This is just one reason why all emergency calls should be recorded.

 

[808]

It probably is a duty of care thing as it is her court and responsibility as Judge of proceedings from what I saw. Can anyone outline this the SOP of the courts in SA

Judge Greenland says this is normal in SA courts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73QXJE69G24

Good interview :websleuther:

 

[AlwaysShocked]

For me, the Mystery of Frank is THE greatest frustration in this entire case. That a longtime member of OP's household is virtually invisible during the trial is simply stunning.

Either he really knows nothing or he knows everything.

At the very least, it seems he would have been subpoenaed to testify about the evening BEFORE Reeva and OP supposedly went upstairs to bed. Surely he could shed light on some aspects of the "climate" of the house in those few hours, words spoken, moods observed, actions noted! As well as what he heard/observed as he stood out in the street with security - BEFORE the Standers arrived!

The man knows something. Chances are a whole lot of something.

He's one of the biggest keys to this case and that he is missing says his testimony would be damning.

I have little to no doubt that OP got to him good, i.e. physical threats and/or money.

Poor Frank.

Deaf. Dumb. Blind.

If my boss had just murdered someone I'd probably be totally terrified, too.

Perhaps this is exactly why Nel did not call him to the stand.

We all know exactly what OP is capable of.

Nel fears for Frank's life seems to be a reasonable conclusion.

My understanding is that Frank was immediately hustled out of the country - sent back to his home country of Surinam or Senegal (or someplace else that starts with an "S"). He supposedly gave one very brief statement to police at the house on the night of the murder in which he said he had not heard anything at all, that he had slept through everything.

And yet, he was at the front of the house, presumably dressed in street clothes, very early in the event. As in during the time the guards were there.

Then when police went to find him a week or so later to interview him more in depth, he was gone, gone, gone.

Since courts cannot usually serve subpoenas from one country to another, it's bye-bye Frank. And yes, I think there was an exchange of money to insure that Frank stays silent and stays out of South Africa. Which is blatant witness tampering. And of course, which will never be able to be proved.

 

[liesbeth]

http://www.enca.com/sheila-pistorius-she-taught-oscar-never-give

Video about Oscar Pistorius's mom by eNCA.

Apologies if it's already been posted.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Oscar partying with buddies in Mozambique December 2013.

Honestly, does this look like a "heartbroken", "depressed", "suicidal" man?!!

(Perhaps it's the SMILE that gives him away?)

I also seriously question the morals and character of his friends, too.

Dunno about the friends as they are not subject to sleuthing, but OP has never been suicidal or depressed or anything similar --- he is an arrogant little man.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

OMG... when that photo link first opened, I thought OP was naked!!!!! LOL Am I alone in having thought that??

Lux, did you white-out the faces of his friends or were they already whited-out?

Hmm... I'm guessing here that the "pbs" stands for something other than Public Broadcasting station...??

The faces were already blocked out. Too bad. I'd love to know who these friends are.

As I believe this is a private photo (not media), I'm wondering who released it into cyberspace? One of OP's "friends", or a friend of a friend - perhaps for a price...or payback?

Here's the twitter page where I found it.
https://twitter.com/echoesofafrica/status/465347003841777664

(pbs ???)

 

[foxbluff]

BBM - I'm sure someone posted a Netcare link in an earlier thread that stated quite clearly they do record emergency calls. Several of us have wondered why on earth Netcare weren't called. In the UK, all emergency calls are recorded, and some of those calls are played in court during murder trials (where the caller is the actual murderer). I would have thought Netcare had a duty to keep recordings of emergency calls, even if only to prove what advice they've given. In OP's case, surely it would have been gross negligence to suggest he moved a body with a gunshot to the head.

TY !! It's reassuring that NetCare does record calls, though it leaves me more confused than ever that neither lawyer called them to testify... how could an actual recording of exactly what OP said, and exactly what NetCare advised, NOT be to the advantage of either the PT or DT!?!

And, yes, emergency calls are recorded in the states, too, and played in Court. Such interesting evidence when the perp calls... what they say or don't say... and HOW they say it... frequently, very "telling."

 

[liesbeth]

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=12db2eec-f25c-4909-a22d-33c680811e2c

A mistrial for Oscar Pistorius? We think not.

Interesting article written by Stuart Scott on Lexology site. He argues that the Channel 7 video footage does not present either grounds for appeal or -mistrial.

 

[soozieqtips]

TY !! It's reassuring that NetCare does record calls, though it leaves me more confused than ever that neither lawyer called them to testify... how could an actual recording of exactly what OP said, and exactly what NetCare advised, NOT be to the advantage of either the PT or DT!?!

And, yes, emergency calls are recorded in the states, too, and played in Court. Such interesting evidence when the perp calls... what they say or don't say... and HOW they say it... frequently, very "telling."

BIB - I know. I don't understand it either. The call has to be advantageous to either the PT or the DT, doesn't it? Yet neither of them called Netcare. If the recording was of a bad quality, I could see why it wasn't used. But then why were Netcare on the list in the first place if that was the case? So many things unanswered in all of this, and the only one who knows the truth won't speak it, and will probably never ever speak it.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

My understanding is that Frank was immediately hustled out of the country - sent back to his home country of Surinam or Senegal (or someplace else that starts with an "S"). He supposedly gave one very brief statement to police at the house on the night of the murder in which he said he had not heard anything at all, that he had slept through everything.

And yet, he was at the front of the house, presumably dressed in street clothes, very early in the event. As in during the time the guards were there.

Then when police went to find him a week or so later to interview him more in depth, he was gone, gone, gone.

Since courts cannot usually serve subpoenas from one country to another, it's bye-bye Frank. And yes, I think there was an exchange of money to insure that Frank stays silent and stays out of South Africa. Which is blatant witness tampering. And of course, which will never be able to be proved.

Frank’s GONE? As no longer in SA? Wow, I had not heard that till just now!

I’m totally shocked and at the same time, it doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Let’s just hope he actually did simply “move” out of SA.

Seriously ... I do not put anything past the Pistorius family.

p.s. I think Frank’s from Malawi.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

TY !! It's reassuring that NetCare does record calls, though it leaves me more confused than ever that neither lawyer called them to testify... how could an actual recording of exactly what OP said, and exactly what NetCare advised, NOT be to the advantage of either the PT or DT!?!

And, yes, emergency calls are recorded in the states, too, and played in Court. Such interesting evidence when the perp calls... what they say or don't say... and HOW they say it... frequently, very "telling."

ALL these confounding omissions and mysteries! I demand a new retrial!!! LOL

 

[liesbeth]

http://blogs.webberwentzel.com/2014/04/broadcasting-the-oscar-pistorius-criminal-trial/

The article above was written by Dario Milo who acted for the media in the application to televise the OP trial. He writes about the broadcasting of the trial. He's also written several articles and posts about media order mistakes made by Judge Masipa. You can find those here...

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=100a5db9-15d1-42df-bab9-5983a8ed9860
and
http://blogs.webberwentzel.com/2014/07/trial-rulings-throw-up-a-media-freedom-paradox/

Edit: AFAIK Dario Milo's firm, Webber Wentzel, has no relation to Ramsay Webber, OP's legal firm.

 

[808]

My understanding is that Frank was immediately hustled out of the country - sent back to his home country of Surinam or Senegal (or someplace else that starts with an "S"). He supposedly gave one very brief statement to police at the house on the night of the murder in which he said he had not heard anything at all, that he had slept through everything.

And yet, he was at the front of the house, presumably dressed in street clothes, very early in the event. As in during the time the guards were there.

Then when police went to find him a week or so later to interview him more in depth, he was gone, gone, gone.

Since courts cannot usually serve subpoenas from one country to another, it's bye-bye Frank. And yes, I think there was an exchange of money to insure that Frank stays silent and stays out of South Africa. Which is blatant witness tampering. And of course, which will never be able to be proved.

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...ius-slept-through-reeva-killing-30246258.html

A policeman who arrived at the scene an hour after the shooting confirmed that Mr Chiziweni had been sleeping in a room off the kitchen and was awake when they arrived. He said the man spoke good English. "We said to him, 'You were here. What did you hear?' " the policeman said, adding that he had replied: "No, no, no, I didn't hear anything."

He said police had been unconvinced by his response: "We were all asking ourselves how he could not have heard anything," he said.

Another policeman at the scene said the housekeeper told detectives that a water feature next to his room had masked any sound from the main house.

Barry Roux, Mr Pistorius's barrister, said the defence would not be calling Mr Chiziweni.

Although Mr Chiziweni was listed as a prosecution witness, a source for the state said it would not be calling him, confirming that he told police in his statement he heard "absolutely nothing".

Anneliese Burgess, a spokesman for the Pistoriuses, said Mr Chiziweni still worked for the family. Pistorius denies her murder.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Stipp also in his testimony said that his "domestic helper" said she heard a woman screaming before the shots..... but she was never called or subpoena -d. I would like to hear both testimonies , what Frank didn't hear and what the good doctors helper did.
It's weird they sound like great witnesses. If Malawian Frank is still in the employ of the Pistorius clan then he is quite close to Mozambique where they have a resort and a Dr. Evil style island where Oscar will live out his days stroking a cat :yes:.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

If Malawian Frank is still in the employ of the Pistorius clan then he is quite close to Mozambique where they have a resort and a Dr. Evil style island where Oscar will live out his days stroking a cat :yes:.

omg, This is too perfect. It would actually be LOL if it all wasn't so awful and depressing and sad.

No doubt Hollywood is furiously scribbling the screenplay as we speak!

 

[foxbluff]

My understanding is that Frank was immediately hustled out of the country - sent back to his home country of Surinam or Senegal (or someplace else that starts with an "S"). He supposedly gave one very brief statement to police at the house on the night of the murder in which he said he had not heard anything at all, that he had slept through everything.

And yet, he was at the front of the house, presumably dressed in street clothes, very early in the event. As in during the time the guards were there.

Then when police went to find him a week or so later to interview him more in depth, he was gone, gone, gone.

Since courts cannot usually serve subpoenas from one country to another, it's bye-bye Frank. And yes, I think there was an exchange of money to insure that Frank stays silent and stays out of South Africa. Which is blatant witness tampering. And of course, which will never be able to be proved.

Most interesting !! A couple of hours ago I was reading one of the links provided here in the last couple of days and read a statement made by the spokesperson for the Pistorius family saying that Frank still works for the family. IIRC the statement was made in May, 2014.

Sooo, I wonder if the family owns property in "Surinam, Senegal, or some place else that starts with an 'S.'

 

[Interested Bystander]

What were the slip-ups out of interest?

One was that SA Criminal Procedure Act states that in OP's case he should have been an inpatient. Another was banning the broadcasting of Professor Saayman's testimony.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Most interesting !! A couple of hours ago I was reading one of the links provided here in the last couple of days and read a statement made by the spokesperson for the Pistorius family saying that Frank still works for the family. IIRC the statement was made in May, 2014.

Sooo, I wonder if the family owns property in "Surinam, Senegal, or some place else that starts with an 'S.'

Frank was from Malawi. Maybe it is possible to track the Pistorius interests there.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Most interesting !! A couple of hours ago I was reading one of the links provided here in the last couple of days and read a statement made by the spokesperson for the Pistorius family saying that Frank still works for the family. IIRC the statement was made in May, 2014.

Sooo, I wonder if the family owns property in "Surinam, Senegal, or some place else that starts with an 'S.'

I think we need to demand dated photo/video PROOF that Frank is still alive - never mind still working for the family.

If he's still alive, he very likely got a hefty raise + bonus. No doubt the family wants to keep him VERY close - and very quiet.

 

[G.bng]

For anyone interested posting my visual timeline, ( "Oscar Pistorius - Timeline 14 February 2013 - 1.56 am to 3.30 am" ), I finally managed to finish in time for closings based on all the ear-witness testimonies (not Motshuane since she gave no times). I worked on it as I went listening and transcribing bit by bit earwitness testimonies over the past months so I think I have most times, details, etc., correct and where I had to approximate or calculate I've given the whys and wheres but also tried to keep my opinion to a minimum as it was not to create a debate but to help visualise how from my workings the testimonies piece together.

Obviously there will be things I missed or got wrong so welcome any corrections or anything of real importance I missed (if I can fit anything else on it!) but please PM me any corrections or additions with a link and/or post number so I can check it out first as I don't always have time to keep up with the thread so may not find anything until past judgement, if ever!

​

The upload here is just a preview to show what it's about because it is unreadable so included link to it in photobucket with it's title title at the beginning of the post where it can be viewed and read by scrolling along but unfortunately AFAIK there are no options for enlarging or reducing so if anyone knows a better host would love to know. I already tried docdroid as a pdf which is so much better as you can select different viewing sizes but for some quirky reason the dotted time lines transfer as solid ones so it looks more like a typographic Mondrian or a constructivist artwork than a timeline so am trying to work out how to resolve the problem... any ideas? If I get the pdf problem sorted will post if anyone interested.

 

[Murphys_Law]

For anyone interested posting my visual timeline, ( "Oscar Pistorius - Timeline 14 February 2013 - 1.56 am to 3.30 am" ), I finally managed to finish in time for closings based on all the ear-witness testimonies (not Motshuane since she gave no times). I worked on it as I went listening and transcribing bit by bit earwitness testimonies over the past months so I think I have most times, details, etc., correct and where I had to approximate or calculate I've given the whys and wheres but also tried to keep my opinion to a minimum as it was not to create a debate but to help visualise how from my workings the testimonies piece together.

Obviously there will be things I missed or got wrong so welcome any corrections or anything of real importance I missed (if I can fit anything else on it!) but please PM me any corrections or additions with a link and/or post number so I can check it out first as I don't always have time to keep up with the thread so may not find anything until past judgement, if ever!

​

The upload here is just a preview to show what it's about because it is unreadable so included link to it in photobucket with it's title title at the beginning of the post where it can be viewed and read by scrolling along but unfortunately AFAIK there are no options for enlarging or reducing so if anyone knows a better host would love to know. I already tried docdroid as a pdf which is so much better as you can select different viewing sizes but for some quirky reason the dotted time lines transfer as solid ones so it looks more like a typographic Mondrian or a constructivist artwork than a timeline so am trying to work out how to resolve the problem... any ideas? If I get the pdf problem sorted will post if anyone interested.

G.bng, I would very much like to review your timeline, but even using the link provided I am unable to render a readable doc. Thanks, M_L.