Trial Discussion Thread #5 - 14.03.11-12, Day 7-8

[Carol70]

//Respect snipped

Also, the idea that the budget for Police Inspectors is so low that protective gloves and booties cannot be purchased is ridiculous! I would be more apt to believe that LE officials are not following protocol and just say this as an excuse to cover their azzes.

:

Sorry to say but it's actually the truth. The police force is horribly understaffed and underpaid. In the suburb I live in, according to our NHW, there are only 2 vans available on duty during any given shift. To highlight I will add a recent incident report for my neighbourhood for one 24 hour period. This is calls that the NHW responded to and were reported, not what our police had on their hands during the same time. This is just a random report I had saved on my iPad but they are all the same.

As you can see, we could really do with a bigger police presence in our area and thank god for the volunteers who contribute to our neighbourhood watch.

That being said, you would swear that our esteemed police force would make available every expert and knowledgable person(to their relevant field),to the case that the world happens to be watching.

 

[minor4th]

I really don't know what to make of Nel, he doesn't come across as very protective of his witness's at times.
There just seems to be very laid back demeanor about him.
Maybe it's all part of the plan and the best is yet to come.

As I said in my post above, I do not think Nel's heart is in it. He has to deal with the crappy witnesses and evidence he has been handed. If I were in Nel's position, I would be disheartened knowing that the police mishandled everything so severely and knowing my witnesses would be contradicting each other.

 

[JuneBug67]

I really don't know what to make of Nel, he doesn't come across as very protective of his witness's at times.
There just seems to be very laid back demeanor about him.
Maybe it's all part of the plan and the best is yet to come.

This morning was especially weird though. Laughing in the wrong places and just...weird. LOL. Not being very articulate, am I?

 

[minor4th]

Are you saying you think murder would have sufficed?.

I think culpable murder would have been more appropriate

 

[minor4th]

True, yes. Likely, though? I doubt it. While the sentence is indeed at the judge's discretion, as many factors are taken into account as an American manslaughter conviction. A guilty verdict in a culpable homicide case where shooting is the means of death as opposed to a vehicle could, in theory, be very different animals.

Nel would certainly not be the first prosecutor in history to overcharge if your assertions are true. I can think of a whole lot of American cases in which the prosecutor sought seemingly impossible to prove charges - usually not for drama though, imo, but to at least secure a conviction on 'lessers' while obviously hoping for a maximum penalty on the highest charge.

MOO

ETA: Drama...when I think drama in court I can't help but think of Kelly Siegler in the Susan Wright case. Anyone remember that? Ah, but she was an awesome prosecutor! She does the show 'Cold Justice' now.

Wright was convicted of 1st degree but her sentence was reduced to twenty years on appeal.

That was HIGH drama in the Wright case!

And yes, I agree that overcharging happens plenty in the US as well. It is unethical to overcharge in the hopes of getting a conviction or plea on lesser charges.

 

[james83]

I think culpable murder would have been more appropriate

Was that ever likely though given that even Oscar would have to admit his story comes across as far fetched whether true or not.

 

[Carol70]

But do you think that kind of sentencing would occur for the average bloke?

If it's a first offense, absolutely. But, and a very small but, to make an example of OP, he may get a small sentence but it's highly unlikely.

 

[minor4th]

I think also that celebrity cuts both ways. Had it been accepted that it was an accident there would have been a great hue and cry because of the things that would have hit the rumour mill and spread like wild fire. They would have been extremely vulnerable to an appearance of favouritism or corruption, and vulnerable to appearing to be diminishing the issue of violence against women which is endemic in South Africa. If Oscar is innocent of knowingly targeting Reeva he's probably better to be found so in a trial instead of the appearance of a backroom deal that would only fuel various special interests ad infinitum.

This is the problem though - police and prosecutors bending to political pressure and public opinion, rather than sticking to the evidence, doing a proper investigation and charging appropriately

 

[shane13]

Sorry to say but it's actually the truth. The police force is horribly understaffed and underpaid. In the suburb I live in, according to our NHW, there are only 2 vans available on duty during any given shift. To highlight I will add a recent incident report for my neighbourhood for one 24 hour period. This is calls that the NHW responded to and were reported, not what our police had on their hands during the same time. This is just a random report I had saved on my iPad but they are all the same.

As you can see, we could really do with a bigger police presence in our area and thank god for the volunteers who contribute to our neighbourhood watch.

That being said, you would swear that our esteemed police force would make available every expert and knowledgable person(to their relevant field),to the case that the world happens to be watching.

Oh no!
That Alan Dershowitz will have a field day re "failed country.'
Get out the generators.

 

[minor4th]

Was that ever likely though given that even Oscar would have to admit his story comes across as far fetched whether true or not.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you question. Could you explain or ask a different way?

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Did not some witnesses say they heard "bang-pause-bang-bang-bang"?

If first shot was the "wild shot" that did not hit her but went into upper left area of bathroom, then second, third, and fourth shots would have hit her. Would force of the bullet hitting her not move, twist or spin her body? And then, what about her body dropping down from a standing position?

Thus, shot #2 hits hip, which causes her body to begin to drop, and either shot #3 or shot#4 hits her head as she is dropping to the floor inside the toilet area.

Re: That metal plate that was bashed in
I believe this is a significant piece of evidence and hope it is not overlooked with all the attention paid to the door. These cover plates to access the plumbing system on a large tub are NOT flimsy. They are a chromed covered metal, held in place by screws. You would not cave one in like that just by bumping it.

Here in the U.S. the brand of tub and plate could be determined and testing conducted to determine how much force from a cricket bat it would take to smash the plate in like that.
Also, was any material from the bat left on the plate? Don't know if such testing would have been done in SA.

How did that plate get bashed in? Why would the cricket-bat swinging OP smash in the plate on the tub? My answer is to intimidate the person in the toilet area.

Poor Reeva. So sad to realize the last minutes of her life were likely terror filled.

 

[FrancesB]

I have just found a better photo of the door:



You can clearly see through that sliver.

I vaguely remember Roux questioning Col Vermeulen about that missing sliver and Roux possibly said that sliver was found on Ms Steenkamp. If that's the case it fell into the toilet cubicle. Interesting.

 

[Carol70]

I read that it's possible for his sentence to be suspended even if he's convicted of culpable homicide? Is that true? If so, that might explain why the state overcharged him with premeditated murder (IMO) - it's much more dramatic, and they want to get him in jail.

Yes it is. Bees Roux was handed a suspended sentence for beating to death a police officer, included was a pay out settlement to the family. He is a SA currie cup rugby player so also a SA celebrity!

 

[JuneBug67]

This is the problem though - police and prosecutors bending to political pressure and public opinion, rather than sticking to the evidence, doing a proper investigation and charging appropriately

Abolutely...I agree. There is tremendous power and vast resources available to the state and they should be meticulous and responsible in applying both.. Often not the reality it seems. And there can be an illusion that the state are the ipso facto "good guys". Law is theatre in many ways and people are simply carrying out roles. It's a machine, and justice often gets chewed up on its way through. We only have to hope that what gets spit out the other end is right most of the time.

 

[james83]

I'm sorry, I'm not following you question. Could you explain or ask a different way?

Sorry maybe i misunderstood you, is culpable murder the same as culpable homicide?, excuse my ignorance.

 

[minor4th]

Yes it is. Bees Roux was handed a suspended sentence for beating to death a police officer, included was a pay out settlement to the family. He is a SA currie cup rugby player so also a SA celebrity!

Wow. That is hard to grasp - especially killing a police officer!

 

[minor4th]

Sorry maybe i misunderstood you, is culpable murder the same as culpable homicide?, excuse my ignorance.

Yes, but in South Africa I believe they call it "culpable murder"

 

[minor4th]

Here's an interesting write-up on Gerrie Nel. While he is understated in his presentation of the evidence, perhaps he will get fired up cross-examining Oscar and other defense witnesses:

Nel was revived when Pistorius took the stand. Warming to his task he badgered Pistorius, asking him to repeat his story, questioning his assertion that he wanted to protect Reeva Steenkamp, but not bothering to check if she was safe before firing at a closed door. Finally he asked an exasperated Pistorius to explain how he could have retrieved the 9-millimeter pistol, used in the shooting, from under Steenkamp’s side of the bed without noticing she was gone.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3737-gerrie-nel-the-victims-advocate

 

[Carol70]

Bullet holes don't appear to be high enough imo.

I was actually quite shocked at how low they were, for some odd reason I was expecting them to be higher. It's actually so hard to tell...but yep, you are probably right. Considering her shorts were up at that point. I imagine she was finished on the loo, or stood up when she heard OP shouting but I can't imagine where she could have been standing at this point.

 

[katydid23]

Here's an interesting write-up on Gerrie Nel. While he is understated in his presentation of the evidence, perhaps he will get fired up cross-examining Oscar and other defense witnesses:



http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3737-gerrie-nel-the-victims-advocate

But the way things are going right now, I doubt that Roux would put OP on the stand. Why take the hot seat when you are winning the case?