Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[MeeBee]

This may not be relevant or even the case. I wonder if Masipa, on some level, identifies with OP disability as she shares a disability from polio. There are similarities in that they both strove to overcome their physical challenges to achieve "greatness" and what most would consider "success". Perhaps her judicial temperament lies with the person accused and her standard requires that the prosecutor go above and beyond to "prove" to her that no other possibility exists.

I am struggling to comprehend her rationale as I keep seeing the four angled bullet holes in the door in my mind's eye. To me, that showed intent. JMV

I think, on the contrary, she kind of judged him a little more harshly for it because she has her own disability. I don't necessarily agree with her comparisons to the elderly and children. But she did refer to other disabled people as if to say, "it's no excuse."

 

[turaj]

Imo Masipa didn't have the bottle to do the right thing and convict him of dolus eventualis, she just wasn't strong enough, here's hoping that if she let's him go free she doesn't end up with blood on her hand's.

You will note the extra explanation today...I think that is why she stopped yesterday...wanted to add more and I'm sure last night she was acutely aware of her questionable ruling and needed to make it clear on her thinking. She sure was not impressive reading off those pages in that monotone and never looking up.

 

[AJ_DS]

What's left to say really…?

OP will likely get a slap on the wrist for Tasha's… Masipa made a point to say that OP was distressed and concerned for his friends.

OP will get a very light sentence for the CH… Defence will plead various aspects during sentence mitigation… in the end, OP will probably serve a lengthy suspended prison sentence in the community.

I will be surprised if OP sees the inside of a prison cell.

SA Justice has been diminished on this day… shame on you Masipa !!

 

[Zim]

Yes - that is why I posted that the judge has selective hearing!

I would go as far as saying that Milady slept thru the whole trial with her eyes open....it is an art you know !
Sooo disapointing !

 

[turaj]

Me neither ..

.. and can I just ask why it takes a whole month for her to deliver the sentence? I know that a couple of weeks is standard, over here in the UK but then that is because we have juries and the jury has to deliver it's verdict, and then the judge has to have time to work out the correct sentence but surely in the case of the way SA courts work, the judge already knew what verdict she was going to give, so why does it now take her a whole extra month to give her sentencing, and why isn't she able to deliver that at the same time as she delivered her verdict .. it makes no sense to me?

She knows today what she will do...she has bought into the notion that OP is the only credible person in that courtroom...do you really think she will put him in prison??? If she mentions his crying at the scene one more time as good solid evidence of his intentions I will scream~~

 

[turaj]

Family press conference from inside the courtroom? Does this family have no morals, how inappropriate & insulting to the familyof Reeva, this court has gone out of it's way to protect Oscar.

Not a big surprise there...that courtroom from the beginning has belonged to the great and powerful Pistorius family.

 

[Madeleine74]

Just as I thought.

A slap on the wrist and a pat on the head (Now go be a good boy and listen to your uncle!)

He will get no jail time, mark my words. The judge has clearly telegraphed her future intentions.

 

[Viper]

What's left to say really…?

OP will likely get a slap on the wrist for Tasha's… Masipa made a point to say that OP was distressed and concerned for his friends.

OP will get a very light sentence for the CH… Defence will plead various aspects during sentence mitigation… in the end, OP will probably serve a lengthy suspended prison sentence in the community.

I will be surprised if OP sees the inside of a prison cell.

SA Justice has been diminished on this day… shame on you Masipa !!

Eh, it's not over til its over. I'll stay interested through the sentencing and up until the day that the NPA says that they will not appeal Masipa's judgements and sentencing; until that day OP may very well learn what justice is.

 

[IndianSummer]

Oscar should just move in with the judge, maybe he could become her chauffeur and a film can be made about it, Driving Miss Masipa.

Her voice got noticeably softer when she told him he could sit back down!
Unbelievable!

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Try this one..
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...rdering-reeva-but-culpable-of-killing-her_fun

He he, I enjoyed that! Thanks for sharing.

 

[turaj]

Just watching Sky.

Martin what's his name has just stated that OP has shown 'very clear remorse'. I must have missed that bit. I have seen a spoilt self obsessed man crying for himself and then making a huge show of mewling and puking to try and gain sympathy like some dreadful seven year old. Nothing spoke of genuine remorse or care for Reeva. Nothing.

And everytime poor Oscar was crying too much or pucking too much who came to his rescue ...the judge....they must have unlimited resources in SA that they can adjourn court at the drop of a tear and just keep trials going indefinitely. I mean they have to pay all that staff.

 

[AJ_DS]

Eh, it's not over til its over. I'll stay interested through the sentencing and up until the day that the NPA says that they will not appeal Masipa's judgements and sentencing; until that day OP may very well learn what justice is.

I must commend you on your infallible and unwavering optimism !

 

[Mr Fossil]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

I’m still trying to fully understand it but I’m wondering if she felt that a verdict of Dolus Eventualis would be easily overturned by an appeal court by using this same case law and that a verdict of culpable homicide was therefore more secure. If so, I expect her sentence to be harsher than others are perhaps expecting.

I think the issue here is that the judge has to abide by the law and precedent; setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

 

[turaj]

Well, they won't because they won't need to come true, seeing as it's highly unlikely that he will be serving any sentence at all, and he knows that. It would be a different story if there was any chance of proper sentencing though, and you can bet your life he'd be off like a shot! It's never going to come to that though, is it.

Oh...he will not go anywhere...Uncle Arnold won't let him...but I do think a long vacation will be his first order of business after sentencing.

 

[turaj]

Yes - that is why I posted that the judge has selective hearing!

I'm not sure she is hearing much of anything!!

 

[Exchange973]

Hello Exchange973.

Now that we know the Judge's priorities, I don't think OP has anything much to fear by staying put in South Africa.

I asked earlier if there was anyone who could explain the finding that it was not reasonable to infer that OP must have known there was a possibility that he might kill the person behind the door.

Do you agree with this finding?

No I didn't. I thought he was guilty of murder.

 

[MeeBee]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

I’m still trying to fully understand it but I’m thinking she felt that a verdict of Dolus Eventualis would be easily overturned by an appeal court by using this case law but that a verdict of culpable homicide was more secure from this. If so, I expect her sentence to be harsher than others are expecting.

I think the issue here is the judge has to abide by the law and precedent and setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

That seems to be exactly what she was saying today.

 

[rachael123]

Slept through everything.Does anyone know what happened with the lesser charges?Thanks.

 

[turaj]

From what I have seen so far in the judgement phase JM not only seems inexplicably positive towards OP but really negative against the state to a level which gives me concern that something is causing a less than neutral response to PT arguments.

To completely dismiss all of the PT witnesses, but then quote one of them when it suited (Dr Stipp regarding OP crying) seems perverse in the extreme.

In any case, even if we dismiss the premeditated murder of Reeva, there is no logical reason for ruling that requirements for dolus eventualis were not met.

I note that both DT and PT can put arguments relating to sentencing. If I was Nel, I suppose I would want to continue to do my very best with arguments, but I would be expecting them all to be summarily dismissed in the same manner that everything else to do with the prosecution case has been.

I agree that there was no consideration for Reeva or her friends and family. In addition I found the way in which JM referred to the victim simply as "Steenkamp" negative and almost critical as if she was somehow on trial.

The whole thing leaves a very sour taste.

Today Nel just sat with eyes downward and only seemed engaged when necessary...at this point anything he says is met with a deaf ear on this judge...I mean he cannot even make any points she acknowledges are valid. I agree with the quoted post..."sour taste" is the perfect word. It really does seem as if judge M has some major problem with Nel in general. They all know each other well in that system from what I see and it really makes me wonder....OP was lying on the stand and when Nel called him out on it she really could not take it.

 

[mirage1]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

Under what reasoning is there a reasonable possibility the accused, a gun expert did not foresee, shooting 4 times at close range into a toilet door would not POSSIBLY kill someone? What other reasonable inference could be drawn? Oscars actions easily met this standard, which I don't think was very high considering what he did. It is just unbelievable she did get him on this.

I think the issue here is the judge has to abide by the law and precedent and setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

Oscars actions alone proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. The state did not have to do anything in relation to this aspect imo. He admitted he shot without the door even opening, and the judge has concluded his shooting was unlawful.