Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[mister happy]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

I’m still trying to fully understand it but I’m thinking she felt that a verdict of Dolus Eventualis would be easily overturned by an appeal court by using this case law but that a verdict of culpable homicide was more secure from this. If so, I expect her sentence to be harsher than others are expecting.

I think the issue here is the judge has to abide by the law and precedent and setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

Hmmm.. well hopefully JM may surprise us (pleasantly!) yet.

 

[Lyra500]

Today Nel just sat with eyes downward and only seemed engaged when necessary...at this point anything he says is met with a deaf ear on this judge...I mean he cannot even make any points she acknowledges are valid. I agree with the quoted post..."sour taste" is the perfect word. It really does seem as if judge M has some major problem with Nel in general. They all know each other well in that system from what I see and it really makes me wonder....OP was lying on the stand and when Nel called him out on it she really could not take it.

Indeed. My first draft if this post actually said that I felt as if she had some personal animosity towards or problem with Nel which was affecting her judgement, but I took it out as I was not sure whether it might be deemed too negative against JM. But really, you do have to wonder.

 

[Lyra500]

Slept through everything.Does anyone know what happened with the lesser charges?Thanks.

Two charges thrown out.

Guilty of firing the gun in the restaurant.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Robyn Curnow
@RobynCurnowCNN
National Prosecuting Authority tells CNN they're disappointed #OscarPistorius wasn't convicted of premed murder. But they respect decision
From inside the courtroom:

Robyn Curnow
@RobynCurnowCNN
National Prosecuting Authority says they will wait until after the sentencing to decide if they will appeal. #OscarPistorius
Sep. 12, 2014ReplyRetweetFavorite

by emily.smith 7:49 PM

http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Oscar_Pistorius_trial_4

I'm a bit surprised by that statement. I've heard many times that Nel only went with premeditated in order to get a version from OP at the bail hearing which would make it more or less essential that he'd have to testify. Basically none of the legal experts ever thought that premeditated murder would get up in court.

 

[DebinGA]

OP didn't foresee that his actions could result in someone's death
.

Imo that definition fits if OP's shot out the sunroof had come down and killed an old lady weeding her garden, not OP shooting four shots which follow RS's screams as her dying body flails during her last seconds in the tiny cubicle.

 

[Giles]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

I’m still trying to fully understand it but I’m wondering if she felt that a verdict of Dolus Eventualis would be easily overturned by an appeal court by using this same case law and that a verdict of culpable homicide was therefore more secure. If so, I expect her sentence to be harsher than others are perhaps expecting.

I think the issue here is that the judge has to abide by the law and precedent; setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

I'm thinking along the same lines - or at least hoping. I am remaining hopeful that he is given a stiff sentence for culpable homicide. Thoughts of him being given a suspended sentence or getting community service or house arrest are difficult to stomach.

 

[AJ_DS]

No I didn't. I thought he was guilty of murder.

Being an attorney (still unverified btw) you got it wrong as the rest of did

 

[Mr Fossil]

Under what reasoning is there a reasonable possibility the accused, a gun expert did not foresee, shooting 4 times at close range into a toilet door would not POSSIBLY kill someone? What other reasonable inference could be drawn? Oscars actions easily met this standard, which I don't think was very high considering what he did. It is just unbelievable she did get him on this.




Oscars actions alone proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. The state did not have to do anything in relation to this aspect imo. He admitted he shot without the door even opening, and the judge has concluded his shooting was unlawful.

As I said, I'm still trying to get my head around it myself! Don't get me wrong, I believe him to be guilty of Dolus Directus. I belive he knew it was Reeva in the toilet. But what I believe is irrelevant. I'm trying to understand where Masipa is coming from.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

I’m still trying to fully understand it but I’m thinking she felt that a verdict of Dolus Eventualis would be easily overturned by an appeal court by using this case law but that a verdict of culpable homicide was more secure from this. If so, I expect her sentence to be harsher than others are expecting.

I think the issue here is the judge has to abide by the law and precedent and setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

BIB - Until this morning, I would have agreed with you. I am afraid that now, having witnessed this mornings shenanigans, the time he spent in a cell during the penultimate adjournment is all he will serve. SA Justice stinks, it really does and any faith that I had in Judge Masipa has evaporated.

I saw this Tweet earlier - it just about sums up the outcome.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I may be wrong, but my gut tells me that the female assessor was quite vocal in defence of OP and the others went along with it. Pure speculation, of course, but I think I read that she has a special interest in psychology.

"A profile of Henzen-du Toit published by Beeld newspaper earlier this month pointed out that she was an expert in criminal justice. She has an Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation".

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/democracy/3759-assessors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate

 

[turaj]

Indeed. My first draft if this post actually said that I felt as if she had some personal animosity towards or problem with Nel which was affecting her judgement, but I took it out as I was not sure whether it might be deemed too negative against JM. But really, you do have to wonder.

I don't consider it negative at all...it is reality...these judges and attorneys all have history with each other and while you start fresh each time...well I think some carryover is certainly possible...especially if personalities clash etc. Gerry Nel is unique and honestly Roux and Oldwage are more typical of what I would expect in a SA courtroom...old school to say the least. Nel seems much more vibrant and innovative...just my take but I would consider it naive to think there cannot be some small bias going in but a judge should be able to put it aside...it just seemed almost too much the way she discounted everything on that side...frankly with her mindset Nel is probably relieved to have got the CH.

 

[4MrsB]

This was asked last thread but who is the BLONDE sitting with the family for Oscar??? If that is actually his girlfriend this group is even worse than I thought.

I'm not sure who the blonde is sitting next to Aimee, but it immediately looked like CARICE STANDER (forget her new married last name) to me. Maybe I am wrong, but she sure looks like Carice.

It is NOT the supposedly "new girlfriend" that he met on vacation & is supposedly dating. That gal has brown hair (surprisingly) and looks nothing like this gal. Does Uncle Arnold have a daughter...OP's cousin? (But sure looks a lot like Carice. If so...makes sense that one of the few witnesses the judge believes, is sitting with the Pistorius family in the front row.

 

[jay-jay]

This was asked last thread but who is the BLONDE sitting with the family for Oscar??? If that is actually his girlfriend this group is even worse than I thought.

Who is she, does anyone here know? .. and if she's isn't OP's current girlfriend, does anyone know if he is still with LSM? I find it absolutely staggering that he formed a relationship with her, so soon after killing Reeva .. would be a totally different thing if your partner had died accidentally in some tragic circumstances, I would never judge anyone in that instance, but when you have just killed your own previous girlfriend??? .. that just beggars belief :-O

 

[soozieqtips]

I can't get my head round Masipa discounting so many State witnesses on the basis that their testimonies either contradicted each other, or were embellished by what they'd read in the media, and were therefore unreliable. Yet she bought OP's BS, when she had already deemed him to be a very poor witness who changed his story. Where's the logic in that? Or the justice?

When the court adjourned, June could be seen shaking her head and Steenkamp's close friend Gina Myers broke down and wept.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rius-guilty-culpable-homicide-reeva-steenkamp

 

[mirage1]

As I said, I'm still trying to get my head around it myself! Don't get me wrong, I believe him to be guilty of Dolus Directus. I belive he knew it was Reeva in the toilet. But what I believe is irrelevant. I'm trying to understand where Masipa is coming from.

There is nothing to understand. The decision was corrupt or she is stupid, as there is no sound legal reasoning behind her decision imo. It was just SO clear cut.

 

[turaj]

I'm not sure who the blonde is sitting next to Aimee, but it immediately looked like CARICE STANDER (forget her new married last name) to me. Maybe I am wrong, but she sure looks like Carice.

It is NOT the supposedly "new girlfriend" that he met on vacation & is supposedly dating. That gal has brown hair (surprisingly) and looks nothing like this gal. Does Uncle Arnold have a daughter...OP's cousin? (But sure looks a lot like Carice. If so...makes sense that one of the few witnesses the judge believes, is sitting with the Pistorius family in the front row.

Well indeed that would be very interesting...hopefully someone can confirm that is her.

 

[Mr Fossil]

There is nothing to understand. The decision was corrupt or she is stupid, as there is no sound legal reasoning behind her decision imo. It was just SO clear cut.

Not for me I'm afraid. I don't understand how the "even if he probably did so" bit squares with "subjectively ... did not foresee". Perhaps you can enlighten me?

ETA I think I can answer this for myself. Whether he probably foresaw is not important legally, it is whether he reasonably possibly did not foresee and acted regardless of the consequences that is at the heart of this. Masipa feels that the State did not plug this hole. He fired at the door but she cannot prove that, at the time, he reasonably possibly believed he would kill someone. It is the law that is the problem here.

The number of changes I keep making to this show how confused I am!

 

[Zim]

All I can say is .... Wow ! Wow ! Wow ! South African women needed this case, judged by a woman to say to men that NO it is not OK to beat up women and abuse and rape them or even kill them. A woman judge has turned her back on her 'sistas' and let a man (no matter who or what standing) get away with this. I say shame...shame....shame. South African women, I am so sorry. I do not know how but you have to respond. I do not know how but I really think that you should.

 

[turaj]

Who is she, does anyone here know? .. and if she's isn't OP's current girlfriend, does anyone know if he is still with LSM? I find it absolutely staggering that he formed a relationship with her, so soon after killing Reeva .. would be a totally different thing if your partner had died accidentally in some tragic circumstances, I would never judge anyone in that instance, but when you have just killed your own previous girlfriend??? .. that just beggars belief :-O

Also...give Uncle Arnold is running the OP show these days amazed that he would not do something to keep this completely undercover or stop it until this trial was over...it simply does not look right...but I guess it makes no difference at this point.

 

[DebinGA]

I really like Martin Brunt but when I heard him utter those words my jaw dropped.....where, please tell me , was the remorse for Reeva.....OP had plenty for himself but not a smidgen for Reeva that I have witnessed.

Everything from Team Pistorius and media outlets should be viewed through the prism of their incredible wealth and worldwide connections imo. The Pistorius public relations budget probably exceeds that of most African countries.