Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[Giles]

Good morning friends! I'm just now joining the party/funeral. Has Masipa kissed OP on his *** yet (LOL!), or is she still putting on a show for the rest of us that are expecting justice from her Court? What's happening?

He's in jail right now, but likely only for another 20 minutes.

 

[patCee]

black talon versus standard ammunition
can anyone clarify the fact that masipa stated the type of ammunition in the gun was irrelevant? was this stated in relation to a specific point, or across the board.

did she not understand the effects and intent associated with black talon?

Yes, she commented on this when discussing CH re OP time to think - size of toilet - calibre of ammunition - person could die - ammunition not relevant

BBM

 

[Sherbert]

no sentence or possibility of freedom has addressed Oscar's main problem.. the problem that becomes everyone else's problem, and that is, he cannot distinguish sounds that require action and sounds that don't. ( this is if you believe he heard 'sounds' , I don't, but hey) ... surely any judgement will have to address how Oscar can move back into society and society be reasonably safe from his perceptions?


He is currently, supposedly , living with his family.. they apparently are not nervous re the sounds and instant firing of black talons at supposed source of sound.. which means they are either collectively brainlessly idiotically brave, or they don't for one moment believe Oscar fired at random in a panic, it cannot be both, it has to be one or the other..

True. Masipa has found that he should have foreseen death, but didn't. Surely, this means he's way too dangerous to be granted bail?

 

[Alyce]

Just watching Sky and apparently OP was * surprised* and * not happy*when he was told he would have to go down to a holding cell !!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

no sentence or possibility of freedom has addressed Oscar's main problem.. the problem that becomes everyone else's problem, and that is, he cannot distinguish sounds that require action and sounds that don't. ( this is if you believe he heard 'sounds' , I don't, but hey) ... surely any judgement will have to address how Oscar can move back into society and society be reasonably safe from his perceptions?


He is currently, supposedly , living with his family.. they apparently are not nervous re the sounds and instant firing of black talons at supposed source of sound.. which means they are either collectively brainlessly idiotically brave, or they don't for one moment believe Oscar fired at random in a panic, it cannot be both, it has to be one or the other..

Gawd Trooper, you're just too logical. Logic played no part in this case. Please someone prove me wrong. lease:

 

[Emz73]

They just said both camps were disappointed. What was OP hoping for? Whats it called when its purely an accident? Does he really think we should buy it was just an accident??? Theres no remorse is there!!!

 

[Suthrnqt]

"Like Ray Rice and O.J. Simpson, Oscar Pistorius May Walk Away A Free Man"


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...car-pistorius-walk-free-man-article-1.1937044

 

[Really?]

gulp......i'm afraid to look at any posts yet as i have just now woken up.....6:12 est.............i'll peek......is he in prison yet?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I still can't get past the idea that it is in any way plausible that your automatic assumption wouldn't be that the strange person in the bathroom would be, you know, THE PERSON WHO LIVES WITH YOU. No one suggested that OP had a history of sleepwalking or nighttime hallucinations. Masipa rejected the heightened anxiety claim, and he wasn't found to be mentally incapacitated in any way at the time of the shooting. If he had time to get his gun and position himself to fire, he had time to check the bed and realize Reeva wasn't there.

This isn't just a case of mistaken but honest fear. That is something you might claim if you shot someone who approached you while you were walking on a dark street at night, and made a gesture you perceived as aggressive. In that case, we might still decide that the fear wasn't reasonable enough to justify the response, but it would be somewhere in the realm of comprehensible human behavior. But if you can legitimately claim that you were afraid because you heard the toilet flush EVEN THOUGH you already knew there were others in the house, then we're living in a very dangerous world.

And from what I've read about domestic violence, the fact that OP was apparently devastated afterward doesn't prove anything. Men who kill their partners don't usually plan it out in advance, they do it in a moment of rage and don't think about the consequences until it is too late. That doesn't mean firing four bullets into someone isn't intentional murder in that moment.

Masipa gave an example yesterday, if a dark figure hovered over the bed while OP lay in it, he is within his rights to shoot them. So if Reeva had been in that situation....... same result or less actually.

 

[Trooper]

True. Masipa has found that he should have foreseen death, but didn't. Surely, this means he's way too dangerous to be granted bail?

precisely... it seems that the danger in him being unable to foresee death eventuating from firing a gun loaded, quite deliberately ( in that he sought that ammo specifically , and for it's capability of terminal destruction ) at a small space with someone known to be behind it smacks of someone who is intellectually retarded in the most dangerous way. Someone who should be separated from the general run of folks out there.

 

[sorrell skye]

I am lost and it has to be attributed to the finer points of SA Law Perhaps:

Sunroof weapons charge-
"Fresco was not an impressive witness at all when he gave evidence on this count," she said. "In fact he was proved to be a dishonest witness."
but then-
"It is the opinion of this court that Mr Darren Fresco answered frankly and honestly all the questions put to him, accordingly he is discharged from prosecution for the offence specified in the indictment as count three," she says.

Dolus Eventualis:
"This court has already found that the accused can not be found guilty of murder dolus eventualis.
"It could not be said that he foresaw that either the deceased or anybody else for that matter might be killed when he fired the shots at the toilet door"

but then:

"A reasonable person therefore in the position of the accused with a similar disability would have foreseen that possibility that whoever was behind the door might be killed by the shots and would have taken steps to avoid the consequences and the accused in this matter failed to take those consequences."

I am certain you all covered this already. This is where I will be forever confused and disheartened by this verdict.

On the firearms charge: Fresco's testimony regarding the sunroof incident was found unreliable, but regarding the restaurant incident, Kevin Larena's testimony corroborated Fresco's, so the Judge accepted Fresco's testimony in that incident. She also stated that Fresco didn't appear to be biased against OP in the restaurant incident.

On the murder charge vs. the culpable homicide charge: The Judge applied the subjective test to the murder charge (that OP didn't foresee that his actions could result in someone's death. But she applied the objective reasonable person test to the culpable homicide charge (OP should have, but didn't, foresee that his actions could result in someone's death).

I don't agree with her reasoning, but that's my take on how she arrived at her verdict.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

gulp......i'm afraid to look at any posts yet as i have just now woken up.....6:12 est.............i'll peek......is he in prison yet?

OP in a holding cell waiting for sentencing. Found guilty of culpable homicide. We're preparing ourselves for no jail time.

 

[Sherbert]

They just said both camps were disappointed. What was OP hoping for? Whats it called when its purely an accident? Does he really think we should buy it was just an accident??? Theres no remorse is there!!!

IMO, OP & Co are pretending to be disappointed - I'll bet they're secretly punching the air. With the right judge, the outcome could have been so different...and they know it!

 

[pandax81]

Amazes me how a high court judge could be so naive or stupid to believe someone firing 4 shots into that toilet door could not foresee the possibility he could kill the person inside. What can a prosecution do in the face of such a mind set? To me it was proven without doubt he intended to kill someone, but he could not even get done on the lesser standard of murder. So sad.

It beggars belief that it was unanimous. It's too bizarre for my liking.

 

[Trooper]

gulp......i'm afraid to look at any posts yet as i have just now woken up.....6:12 est.............i'll peek......is he in prison yet?

awww, really.. climb up here on Troopers knee.. lets go thru it calmly...

he is, in fact , having a sample tryout of prison over the lunch break..

 

[Jim Kirk]

On the firearms charge: Fresco's testimony regarding the sunroof incident was found unreliable, but regarding the restaurant incident, Kevin Larena's testimony corroborated Fresco's, so the Judge accepted Fresco's testimony in that incident. She also stated that Fresco didn't appear to be biased against OP in the restaurant incident.

On the murder charge vs. the culpable homicide charge: The Judge applied the subjective test to the murder charge (that OP didn't foresee that his actions could result in someone's death. But she applied the objective reasonable person test to the culpable homicide charge (OP should have, but didn't, foresee that his actions could result in someone's death).

I don't agree with her reasoning, but that's my take on how she arrived at her verdict.

Why? Objective vs Subjective when it's the same instance. It's one or the other, at least you'd imagine.

 

[Interested Bystander]

OJ is in prison for Armed Robbery and Kidnapping. He was sentenced to 33 years.

He is up for parole in 2017. I wonder what will happen.

 

[pandax81]

So.... according to Masipa, anyone in SA can now set up a secure hold in their basement and store all the guns and ammunition they like, invite anybody they like to use it. How on earth is this not animus to possess? To draw a parallel with co-robbers carrying a gun, or returning a lost gun in the street, is just one more bizarre nail in the coffin.

 

[BritsKate]

They just said both camps were disappointed. What was OP hoping for? Whats it called when its purely an accident? Does he really think we should buy it was just an accident??? Theres no remorse is there!!!

Well remember Oscar refuses to accept culpability. Had Reeva only shouted he never would have shot her. But she died presumably for making a noise with a magazine rack.

Obviously the defence wanted an outright acquittal - which was never in the cards once he testified. Personally, I'm still a die-hard 'What more evidence of dolus directus do ya need?' sorta gal.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I think it was around the time the judge was talking about dolus eventualis or murder about intention and how the accused could not have foreseen the death of the victim from shooting four shots at the toilet door.

"There was little room to manoeuvre" said Masipa on the toilet size, yet somehow thinks black talons, and four of them, shoot into the door just "might have caused death".

Quite a lot of mental gymnastics at play - almost as contradictory as Pistorius about the fans, the shooting, the calls and, well, everything.

thank you.
re: mental gymnastics... understandable [to a greater/lesser degree] with pistorius and roux/nel, but i was not expecting any from the judge.