Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[Mystymiss]

No, he hears the sliding window in the BATHROOM opening (and he can say he heard this after the fans were in, blinds closed, etc)

But he couldn't hear his only guess (Reeva) get out of bed and go to the bathroom to include shutting and locking the toilet door? He got his gun from under the bed but didn't notice Reeva was Not in bed!! OP heard the sound of a sliding window but did not hear anything else! Sounds to me like it's make believe time

 

[FrancesB]

Van Rensburg only mention

- Johan Stander
- Clarice Stander
- Aimee Pistorius
- Paramedics
- Hilton Botha
- other police officers/forensics staff

He didn't mention

1. OP's father Henke
2. OP's brother Carl
3. OP's lawyer Kenny Oldwage
4. the locksmith
5. Justin Divaris
6. Samantha Greyvenstein
7. OP's coach Peet Van Zyl

Has von Rensburg not seen all of these people?.... # 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 were definately at the scene....

But perhaps he didn't mention them in his testimony because he was only asked about the crime scene evidence ?

I'm pretty sure, Nel will tell the court later, who else was in the house and whom OP called at what time....

Until now it's not yet the right time for Nel to clarify a lot of issues.... Why should he use up his powder during the cross-examination by the DT ?

It will be better for the state's case if he do this during his own cross-examination of the defence witnesses instead to argue with Roux about every little point during the cross-examination of the state's witnesses....

Van Rensburg definitely mentioned Carl Pistorius being there, and he also mentioned either Pistorius or his brother phoning a lawyer and that Oldwage turned up.

I think I heard him mention the locksmith. I know I heard him mention another cop, sounded like perlan but not sure of the spelling on that name.

 

[Pisto_lius]

This magazine stand didn't exist in the leaked photos of the toilet last year ?

View attachment 41920

Here is the leaked photo.. I don't know what to make of it though.. Could be taken as evidence I guess..

View attachment 41921

It seems in the leaked crime scene photos the magazine stand is on the other side of the toilet

Police said these photos were not part of the official crime scene album....

Now we saw the real crime scene photos and a lot of details are not identical with the leaked photos - e.g. the size of the broken panel(s).....

Just after these photos were leaked we speculated that it could be the DT who leaked these photos....

I gladly repeat it again and again

Roux says his forensic expert went through the toilet carefully on the afternoon after the shooting.

Only one of many sources: http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-bail-hearing-day-two-live-coverage

 

[FrancesB]

This magazine stand didn't exist in the leaked photos of the toilet last year ?

View attachment 41920

It was pictured in those leaked photos, but it was at the side of the toilet on the left.

 

[kittychi]

I am speaking from the point of view that OP really did believe that it was an intruder. If it was the case that he genuinely believed an intruder was in his house that WAS provocation and he was in a life threatening situation. People in life threatening situations go into survival mode, as I said before Fight or Flight. It is in built in all of us and we don't really have a choice when it comes to survival. I can understand if that is what happened, if he is telling the truth. Yes he was living in a far safer environment than most people in SA, but in the heat of the moment in a life threatening situation who knows what we would do?
Perhaps he WAS shooting to kill an intruder. In a situation like that, him believing an armed man may be behind that door, then who knows what any one of us would do. Kill or be killed?
I just can't help feeling sorry for him. Maybe I'm nuts or something.
Anyway maybe next week I will have a change of heart when more evidence comes to light.

BBM: Wasn't he more at risk of an intruder coming through the open door from the balcony? Why would an intruder crawl through a small bathroom window? So okay, in "fight or flight" perhaps he wasn't reasoning

Going with your premise that Oscar really believed there was an intruder, how do you explain the witnesses hearing blood curdling screams from a woman?

Do you think:
1) Oscar screams like a woman when he says "Reeva call the police" or when calling "Help, help, help over the balcony or
2) the screams came from a different residence?
or
3) ?

 

[04009margaret]

I suspect that we won't be able to find a middle ground here because I do not believe it is reasonable to kill an unknown person hiding behind a locked door.

But more importantly, the law requires that your life be threatened in order for you to kill. Merely hearing a noise or seeing a window open, especially when you are sharing your room with a girlfriend, does not constitute your life being threatened. This is not my opinion, it is law. He did not act according to law.

The one thing I can't comprehend in his fear of an intruder coming through the bathroom window is this. The bathroom window faces his backyard, where his 2 dogs are. One of those dogs is a pit-bull, I also have a pit-bull & although loving & playful with his owners if anyone was to enter our property there is no way I wouldn't be aware of it. Their bark is aggressive & frightening, this dog would have barked very aggressively had there been an intruder on his property.

 

[nastasya]

With injuries to head, right arm, and right hip, how does blood end up on floor like this and how does blood end up in toilet leaving this pattern?

 

[YoureNicked]

Could being hit by an air rifle pellet/bullet have caused the bruising to Reeva's inner right buttock or the hole in the bedroom door?

I'm thinking, like some of you are, that Reeva was chased to the toilet and that the attack may have begun with the air rifle and some frightening bashing on things like doors and the metal bath plate with the cricket bat.

The hole in the bedroom door and the bashed in metal plate, if they occurred on the night in question (I guess witnesses will need to be called in order to verify this) could indicate that the attack on Reeva involved more than the final gun shots that ended her life.

JMO.

 

[Madeleine74]

I agree that some people just want to ignore all logic, but I am not one of them. As far as I can see there has been no proof that he knew it was Reeva behind that door. He also did not know that he wasn't in imminent danger, if he thought it was a burglar.

First, he knew there was a human behind that closed loo door. And, he knew he had a deadly weapon, fully loaded, in his hand. OP had the advantage right there & then because he could have just as easily exited out his own bedroom door, down the stairs, and outside. He chose not to do that. He made the choice to walk towards the loo and he made the choice to shoot 4 times into a very small/enclosed space.

Next, according to multiple witness testimony, there were loud bloodcurdling (female) screams. Therefore, unless you discount every single witness who has testifed to hearing screams, you have to consider that OP heard screams too. According to his own 'story,' he yelled for the person to "get out." At no point did OP claim to be screaming his head off. He specifically said he used words "get out" and then later, "Help!" None of the witnesses heard that, just loud female screaming and some lower male voice yelling at or near the same time. In addition at least one witness heard arguing for an hour before the shots. Are you discounting their testimony?

Finally, the person in the loo could not "get out." They were in a tiny enclosed locked area and they were trapped in there since OP was on the other side of the door pointing a loaded gun and shooting that gun 4 times (per his own statement). There was no intruder. According to the laws of the state OP was required to retreat if he could. And yes, he could. He did not and chose to kill the human in the loo. That's homicide at the least.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

RE: Difference in photos of toilet room

It would be very interesting to know who took the photos that were leaked. Because, there's another big difference in addition to the magazine rack being in a different position in the leaked photo vs. the actual crime scene photo.

Look at the upper door panel in the leaked photo, then look at the actual crime scene photos of the bathroom that also show the door. There is a large piece of the upper door panel laying on the floor near the tub in the crime scene photo. In the leaked photo, the panel has been somehow reinstalled into the door!

 

[Madeleine74]

Could being hit by an air rifle pellet/bullet have caused the bruising to Reeva's inner right buttock or the hole in the bedroom door?

I'm thinking, like some of you are, that Reeva was chased to the toilet and that the attack may have begun with the air rifle and some frightening bashing on things like doors and the metal bath plate with the cricket bat.

The hole in the bedroom door and the bashed in metal plate, if they occurred on the night in question (I guess witnesses will need to be called in order to verify this) could indicate that the attack on Reeva involved more than the final gun shots that ended her life.

JMO.

Logically-speaking, something caused Reeva to start the bloodcurdling screams that lasted more than a few seconds, according to witness testimony. She was being threatened before those shots were fired. Otherwise, she never would have seen the gun as she was in the loo with the door closed.

So, either OP was threatening her verbally first, causing her to scream, or (as I suspect) they were fighting, it escalated, he started attacking her and/or threatening her life and using a weapon to show he meant business, causing her to start screaming and run for the loo, where she locked herself in. That amount and level of pure primal screaming means someone knew their life was in danger and they had enough time to contemplate it and express their fear before being killed.

Someone who didn't see a gun wouldn't have known beforehand shots were coming if they were behind the loo door. They would have been taken by surprise.

Reeva knew. She knew because (IMO) her life was threatened well before the actual shots came.

 

[04009margaret]

With injuries to head, right arm, and right hip, how does blood end up on floor like this and how does blood end up in toilet leaving this pattern?

Here is another view of the corner area next to the magazine rack. I read somewhere a few weeks ago the the prosecution believe that RS was standing in that corner. When this photo was displayed in court they pointed out the blood on the wall in that corner.

 

[Estelle]

Once more something about the timeline (I think it’s very important)


* Pieter Baba said: When he (and Jacob) arrived at OP's house he saw OP carried Reeva downstairs. He saw Johan + Clarice Stander in the house.....

Dr Stipp wasn't there at this time (so he arrived minutes later)...

* Dr Stipp said: At the same time he arrived at OP's house Johan + Clarice Stander also arrived (in a black Mini Cooper)..... OP knelt beside Reeva's body….

* Clarice Stander said: She (and her father) arrived at the house at exactly 03:20 (she gave a sworn statement to police)..... she saw OP carried Reeva downstairs.... when Reeva's body has been placed on the floor in the entrance hall Clarice assisted OP to stopp Reeva's bleedings untill paramedics arrived....

Not a single word about the arrival of Dr Stipp.....

* OP said (in his affidavit): Johan Stander and Dr. Stipp arrived at the same time..... this must have been at 03:20 according to Clarice Stander....

Not a single word about the arrival of Stander's daughter Clarice at the same time....

* Paramedics and first police officers arrived at 03:42 (according estate's CCTV footage)

* van Rensburg said: He arrived at 03:55.... paramedics were there....other police officer were there….. OP was in the kitchen and with him Johann + Clarice Stander....

* OP's sister Aimee also was in the house when van Rensburg arrived..... it was reported that she came together with OP's father Henke....

* OP called friend Justin Divaris at 03:55..... Clarice Stander took the phone and explained J. Divaris what happened....

* OP's coach Peet Van Zyl also was called by Clarice Stander (at 04:00 by OP's phone) according to an interview given by Van Zyl.... it's unknown at what time he arrived.....

* Further police officers arrived at around 04:00 (confirmed by van Rensburg)....

* Hilton Botha arrived at 04:15.... meanwhile OP was separated by police in the garage.... Botha interviewed OP and asked him why he washed his hands and face....

Van Rensburg testified Botha was with him when he (van Rensburg) went upstairs to check the crime scene....

* OP's brother Carl + lawyer Kenny Oldwage were already at the scene when Botha arrived - or minutes later (different reports).... Police called a locksmith to open a safe looking for a memory stick with details of offshort accounts.....

* Justin Divaris + girlfriend Samantha arrived at around 04:30 and confirmed that at this time OP wasn't no longer in the house but separate by police in the garage.....

But J. Divaris could speak with OP as he was in the garage !!!
.
.

I am wondering when Aimee, OP's father, Carl Pistorius and lawyer were called because I remember on early threads that MSM leaked that OP made calls to Carl and Oldwage possibly to get advice before the final gunshots (which seems strange now) and they definitely got to the scene very quickly. I have done a search but cannot find anything and do not have the time to plough through the early threads on WS.

It will be interesting when we see all the phone records to see how everything fits together.

 

[Estelle]

Some other facts


- When van Rensburg entered the 2nd spare bedroom, he saw signs that someone had been staying in there - a toothbrush/toothpaste, other non-specific signs (he called it visibility) that someone had been using that en suite bedroom.

I assume OP used this bedroom when he went upstairs to wash his hands and face (according to Botha). He couldn't use the crime scene bathroom for this.

--------------------

- Reeva's dead body (over and over with blood and brain tissues) lay on the floor of the entrance hall since about 03:20 till a coroner’s van leaves the Silver Woods estate with her dead body at about 08:35....

* OP's brother Carl
* his sister Aimee
* maybe his father Henke (?)
* Kenny Oldwage
* Johan and Clarice Stander

they all were in the house.... but no one cared about Reeva.... it seems no one was horrified about what happened....

* OP left his dead girlfriend and went upstairs only minutes (or seconds) after Dr Stipp told him there is nothing he could do for Reeva...

* Clarice Stander was busy to search for towels (and for this she went upstairs into the crime scene)....

* OP's brother Carl and lawyer Kenny Oldwage were more interested to get access to documents and an USB stick from a locked safe in the kitchen...

* OP's sister Aimee was worried about OP's watches….

They all do not give a damn about Reeva…. :banghead:



-----------------

I'll be back later....
.
.

I wonder if RS used to sleep in the guest bedroom but I believe Martin Rooney (UK athlete) had stayed there for a month in January. But I do not think RS went to bed at all that night. However, it seems strange that her things were there beside the bed and in the bathroom. RS must have been prepared in case she decided to stay there as it seems she had no intention of doing so earlier.

I wonder if they were all actually in the house or in the garage depending on the times they arrived.

It will be interesting to hear from Clarice Stander and learn more about what Carl and Oldwage were doing in the kitchen. OP seemed more concerned about what he wanted to get out of his safe than about Reeva.

You can add Justin Divaris and Sam to the list of people who were there although they arrived later and spoke to OP in the garage.

 

[Estelle]

Thanks Pisto_lius, I had no idea ALL these people where there!
Yet not a single person from Reeva's family even called?????

Actually I have never heard of a case where the murderer has called so many people and they were all there within about an hour after his crime to support him to try to get away with it perhaps!

 

[canny]

You may well be right, I don't know when the photo was taken, what tests had been done before he touched it, but he clearly understands procedure, he was angered by the forensic guy touching the gun without gloves and told him to put his gloves on, which indicates Van Rensburg has correct procedure in mind. He was at the house for on Feb 14, 15, 16 and 17th.

It does not take rocket science to figure out after seeing the bullet holes in the door for the first time two days ago in court that the four bullets holes in the door are pointing straight forward into the door and not angling downwards as claimed by Botha in his testimony at the BH to substantiate his theory that OP was wearing his prosthetics when he fired the shots. Why did Rensburg not overrule his subordinate Botha and save the SA police from this unwarranted disaster.

Sure, he informed OP that he is a suspect, read him his rights but he has not testified so far if OP informed him that he had engaged the services of an attorney. As a competent Commander it was his duty to probe further during preliminary investigation, interrogated him and asked him though questions right away.

Did VR ask OP to surrender the phone he used to communicate with anybody after the shooting?
Did VR take position of the gun and asked OP whether there were any more weapons and bullets located in the home?
Did he ask OP if he called the police?
Did he ask OP what prevented him from calling the Police that was his legal and moral duty, because he had all the time in the world to call up his friend’s, relatives and immediately engaged the services of an attorney. This should have been the biggest red flag in VR’s mind a senior cop with 25 years experience regarding OP’s intruder theory.
Did he ask OP if he had Informed Reeva’s family about her accidental death and if not, Why?
Did VR ask OP how many bullets did he fire, and why there are four holes in the door?
Did VR ask OP why did he not hear Reeva screaming out in pain?
Did VR ask OP why his hands and face were clean of blood unlike the rest of his body?
Did VR ask OP who gave him the permission to wash his hands and face?
Did VR ask OP who gave him the permission to break open the toilet door and remove Reeva’s body? The possibility of her having survived four bullets in such a confined area was ruled out,as OP claimed she never responded, this should have made VR most suspicious that OP had deliberately disturbed the crime scene with ulterior motives.
Did VR ask OP ifhe had any medical training?
Did VR ask OP if any person known to him had visited the crime scene?

Did VR ask OP for the origin of the white blankets and black garbage bags that were used to bandage Reeva’s wounds? This question is critical because Clarice Stander brought the towels from the clothes cabinets located in the corridor leading to the Crime scene. Who authorized this lawyer to enter the crime scene? In court Roux is picking holes in VR’s statement that only he and Botha from the police toured the crime scene together, by referring to statements given by other policemen.

If OP would have refused to cooperate on the advice of his attorney, VR should have arrested him in the kitchen itself, and not wait for his subordinate HB to order him to make the arrest in the garage.

The answers to the above questions overwhelmingly proves, that VR did not understand and follow elementary procedures, that had to be strictly followed at any homicide crime scene, he willfully disregarded the reputation and celebrity status of his ‘suspect’ treated him with kid gloves to his own peril that eventually forced him to resign from the police force in disgrace.

 

[Estelle]

Hold on a second, according to that article further character witness's are also lined up to testify against him including "the estate manager who he said he called first".
Really???.

Even though a previous report said that SA do not have character witnesses, the ones who are giving evidence are giving bad character testimony through his actions, lack of actions and his lies.

So I interpret this to mean that unless they are eye or ear witnesses, others cannot be called by the Defence to give glowing reports of OP in the past which I thought we might be subjected to by all his protectors.

 

[Estelle]

I am speaking from the point of view that OP really did believe that it was an intruder. If it was the case that he genuinely believed an intruder was in his house that WAS provocation and he was in a life threatening situation. People in life threatening situations go into survival mode, as I said before Fight or Flight. It is in built in all of us and we don't really have a choice when it comes to survival. I can understand if that is what happened, if he is telling the truth. Yes he was living in a far safer environment than most people in SA, but in the heat of the moment in a life threatening situation who knows what we would do?
Perhaps he WAS shooting to kill an intruder. In a situation like that, him believing an armed man may be behind that door, then who knows what any one of us would do. Kill or be killed?
I just can't help feeling sorry for him. Maybe I'm nuts or something.
Anyway maybe next week I will have a change of heart when more evidence comes to light.

I think those who still think OP is innocent either have not followed the case since the beginning or it is wishful thinking.

It sounds to me that you think it is OK for OP to shoot a black intruder four times without being provoked but not if he knew it was Reeva!

Whoever, he intended to kill, it is still called MURDER!

 

[Estelle]

I suspect that we won't be able to find a middle ground here because I do not believe it is reasonable to kill an unknown person hiding behind a locked door.

But more importantly, the law requires that your life be threatened in order for you to kill. Merely hearing a noise or seeing a window open, especially when you are sharing your room with a girlfriend, does not constitute your life being threatened. This is not my opinion, it is law. He did not act according to law.

This magazine stand didn't exist in the leaked photos of the toilet last year ?

View attachment 41920

IMO that implies that the photo with the magazine rack was taken on February 14 then magazine rack was removed and the Defence took this photo without the magazine rack and leaked it to the MSM.

 

[Estelle]

As this trial has progressed and witnesses have come forward reporting a woman screaming, and arguing, Pistorius has appeared more guilty by the day, for all of Roux's attempts to argue his innocence. And I have recently seen people positing that Pistorius may have anything from narcissistic disorder to dysfunctional judgement disorder! I have only noticed this coming up as the trial has progressed and Pistorius's story looks completely shattered.

Almost as if a disorder of some kind is a last minute desperate attempt to get some leniency.

Pistorius deserves no leniency, he has had far too much already, with firing guns in public places, and threatening people and causing injury to at least one other woman, a certain Cassidy Taylor Memmory.

The time for leniency has long gone. He needs locking up for the maximum time allowed for premeditated murder, if found guilty.

Roux, I put it to you, if you have a daughter, would you want your daughter to date Oscar Pistorius?

Good post. IMO if his mother had not given OP so much attention and perhaps never disciplined him as a child as she felt sorry for him, then his teachers, coaches, friends and family and even the police handled him with kid gloves ignoring his bad behaviour and idolising him as if he was a God even taking the blame for his bad behaviour as he has never ever been punished for it.

I believe in "tough love" even if it means a 25 year sentence in prison. It is about time he took responsibility for his actions.