Trial - Ross Harris #5

[Hope4More]

Do we know his wife didn't have a zero tolerance policy? He'd been caught once. Do we know he didn't swear he'd never cheat again, beg her to take him back? Do we know she didn't threaten to divorce him and take their son away if it ever happened again? Do we know if she'd been suspicious shortly before Cooper died?

Tex, when I say ZERO tolerance, I mean just that. As in, caught and you're gone. IMO it's just too big a betrayal of trust, one I couldn't forgive.

We haven't heard at trial, but the two were allegedly in counseling, a notion supported, however slightly, by the fix a marriage books on their living room bookshelf.

FWIW, both belonged to a very conservative church-- one with a doctrine of submission- and Leanna is known to be a very religious woman. It's speculation, but no, I don't imagine Leanna as a wife who gave ultimatums, I imagine her as a wife who felt responsible, even when a more appropriate response, imo, would have been to throw his arse out .

And yes, we know Leanna has never wavered in believing it was an accident, at least not publicly.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Quote Originally Posted by arkansasmimi View Post
Serious question, what has RH hid?

Sexting all day on June 18. He may have forgotten about the light bulb trip, but there is no way he forget about his sexting.

He didn't hide any of that or delete, it was and is still there. I don't recall Stoddard asking him if he was sexting, so he didn't lie about that either. We been hearing about it for couple weeks now.

 

[Hope4More]

Counts 5,6,7,8. Maybe 3,5,6,7,8

What's your take?

You've decided there is no reasonable doubt (minors aside) before the defense has presented it's case?

 

[arkansasmimi]

Makes sense. But in that case, the 5" difference between the measurements from C-R = 14" and the two that add up to be 19" for the same overall part of his body makes me think his crown to rump length wasn't 14" at all. This is why his head was near the top of the shell of the car seat and not 5" below like someone said yesterday. I have a feeling that was the typo that was discussed. Ultimately it really doesn't matter in the case against RH,but would put to rest the idea that he still fit in that car seat. Poor Cooper.

We can only go by what has been entered into evidence. And those figures so far are 14inchs from rump to crown and the car seat being 19 1/4 inches. That is where I get my 5 1/4 inch from evidence & testimony presented by States witness

JMHO just one more inaccuracy of evidence in this case and a point being brought out by the Def. JMHO the State should have had all these things locked down prior to first day of trial. It creates reasonable doubt in itself of a thorough investigation.

 

[GA_Peach]

He didn't hide any of that or delete, it was and is still there. I don't recall Stoddard asking him if he was sexting, so he didn't lie about that either. We been hearing about it for couple weeks now.

We can agree to disagree. Stoddard asked Ross about his day. Ross starts telling Stoddard about his day. I am paraphrasing Ross here: I arrived at work around 9:30. I got straight to work. I had a 10:00 meeting so I went to that. Ross gave lots of details and specifics about his day. He did not tell about his texting habits. That is hiding information via omission. JMO

You are correct though. Detective Stoddard never asked Ross if he was texting or sexting while Cooper baked to death. He simply asked Ross to tell him about his day. IMO it's a pretty big omission to not talk about the activity that consumed most of his day.

If his texting simply meant that he was a bad husband, why shy away (aka hide) from the discussion of his online habits? I think it's fairly clear that his texting habits had criminal implications from the outset. It's clear to me now, and it was clear to Ross then.

 

[cricket49]

I was out for half of Thursday and all day Friday and missed all testimony. Thursday morning I watched witness David Dustan but not cross from the Defense. There is no way I want to watched all the videos. Can somebody tell me the what I missed that was significant or interesting that I need to go back and watch?

TIA :tyou:

 

[arkansasmimi]

Quote Originally Posted by arkansasmimi View Post
LH had taken Cooper to LAA some days in June 2014. LH schedule depended upon her appointments with clients. She worked for DaVita Dialysis as a dietitian. Here is a link about what LH job was https://www.davita.com/kidney-diseas...etitian/e/5318 JMHO it would make sense to check back and forth as to who may pick up, LH may get a new patient/client.Both had fluctuating schedules. I personally see nothing criminal about them speaking about picking up Cooper texts. JMHO

OF COURSE it isn't criminal for two parents to speak about picking up Cooper. I never implied that it was, correct? Not every thought that someone posts about Ross' behavior needs to be an argument. Ugh. It's truly getting exhausting.

LH and RH weren't discussing who was picking up Cooper; it was already decided that LH was. Ross didn't confirm that she could pick him up still, he asked what time she was doing it. Did they routinely ask each other that? I feel that given what happened that way and Ross' "concern" about whether she was at daycare or not (or whatever he called daycare about), and that he seemed to have left work fairly early for the movie...it all makes me wonder if he was trying to discover Cooper before or right as she got there. If they asked each other about pick up timing every day than that is not so weird in and of itself. Nothing about his individual behaviors and actions really stand out as suspicious for any normal day, but everything together in the context of what happened that day is curious.

I sorry, but I do not see where I implied that you said it was (or that was not my intention sorry if came across that way). Just made a comment. There have been many times it was implied by others here, and also iirc in court it was implied that a text about being reminded from another day was spoken about. Did they routinely ask ea other that? We only have text messages and only what has been shown or read into record. Not a clue what they discussed on phone or in person. If not taken out of context because of the day it happened that he left Cooper in car, at the time texted her, he may have just wanted to know what time she would be done and pick him up. They spoke on the phone after that. Just few minutes prior to RH badging out. (less than 10 min)

As far as leaving time for movie, it has been testified that the other 2 friends who were going, also left early. So the fact that RH left early is jmho not suspecious. If he was only one that left early, as orig lead to believe then yes, but now we know different.

ETA: the reminding text was not about forgetting Cooper in a car. But reminder he was to pick him up that day from daycare as in she was not going to that day. JMHO

 

[Hope4More]

It feels unnatural for me to argue with someone I admire so much. :waitasec:

I think our difference in opinion in this case is:

You: Sexts, endless meaningless texts, prostitutes -> bad husband only -> child dying has nothing to do with those.

Me: Sexts, endless meaningless texts, prostitutes -> bad husband AND bad dad*-> child dies as a result and I hold bad dad responsible (together with other evidence presented at trial of course).

*bad dad because:
-His texting and sexting take precious time away from nurturing his child. You never get those precious moments back.
-He is preoccupied with dirty filthy thoughts about having sex with young girls and prostitutes even when he is in the same room with Cooper. This is not a healthy environment for a child to grow up in.

Probably more reasons... but I have to go cook dinner now.

((Pocket)), it isn't the slightest bit unnatural, sis. Actually, finding us on opposite ends of this one is a good challenge, at least for me, to explore how that could be. I've said it to you privately, but I'll say it again here- you are one of the best analytical thinkers I've encountered on WS, and your skill is all the more impressive given English isn't your first language. Wow.

From the list on your post I think I see one possibility why we're not in agreement. Your reasons for believing RH is guilty seem to be, sis, predicated on moral judgements about RH's sexual activities. That RH sexts even in the same room with toddler Cooper and has filthy thoughts may or may not make him a bad dad, but imo, is woefully insufficient evidence to reject the universal opinion of those who know RH that he loved Cooper, much less to believe him capable of killing him.

I don't have any strong opinions about RH the man, because my only interest in RH is RH as a defendant on trial, and whether or not the State can make a case, beyond reasonable doubt, that RH is guilty for the crimes he's being charged with.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I really think coroner would distinguish pre and post-mortem injuries. Wasn't him with rigor mortem when retired from the car?

JMHO, Best answer I can give is to listen to the ME testimony both State and Def. ** this is part 2 of archive that day. Part 1 has the ME Investigator Jackson, who called to scene and removed the body.

[video=youtube;9IJwN95Ft8M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJwN95Ft8M[/video]

 

[GA_Peach]

((Pocket)), it isn't the slightest bit unnatural, sis. Actually, finding us on opposite ends of this one is a good challenge, at least for me, to explore how that could be. I've said it to you privately, but I'll say it again here- you are one of the best analytical thinkers I've encountered on WS, and your skill is all the more impressive given English isn't your first language. Wow.

From the list on your post I think I see one possibility why we're not in agreement. Your reasons for believing RH is guilty seem to be, sis, predicated on moral judgements about RH's sexual activities. That RH sexts even in the same room with toddler Cooper and has filthy thoughts may or may not make him a bad dad, but imo, is woefully insufficient evidence to reject the universal opinion of those who know RH that he loved Cooper, much less to believe him capable of killing him.

I don't have any strong opinions about RH the man, because my only interest in RH is RH as a defendant on trial, and whether or not the State can make a case, beyond reasonable doubt, that RH is guilty for the crimes he's being charged with.

Ross's sexual activities aren't simply a moral judgment in this case. It's what Ross was doing leading up to and during the death of Cooper. With respect to counts 6-8, it IS the crime.

 

[Hope4More]

We can agree to disagree. Stoddard asked Ross about his day. Ross starts telling Stoddard about his day. I am paraphrasing Ross here: I arrived at work around 9:30. I got straight to work. I had a 10:00 meeting so I went to that. Ross gave lots of details and specifics about his day. He did not tell about his texting habits. That is hiding information via omission. JMO

You are correct though. Detective Stoddard never asked Ross if he was texting or sexting while Cooper baked to death. He simply asked Ross to tell him about his day. IMO it's a pretty big omission to not talk about the activity that consumed most of his day.

If his texting simply meant that he was a bad husband, why shy away (aka hide) from the discussion of his online habits? I think it's fairly clear that his texting habits had criminal implications from the outset. It's clear to me now, and it was clear to Ross then.

RH texted/sexted with, iirc, 35 or 36 women that day, "just" one of those being a minor, right? The other sexting was perfectly legal, but not, I imagine, anything RH would offer up to LE, any more than he offered it up to anyone in his life, much less to LE about what he was doing as his son died.

Yes, Ross said he had a 10 o'clock meeting. Maybe he couldn't provide more details about his workday because his entire work day was spent sexting. Or, maybe neither he or LE felt it was relevant to go in the weeds about what exactly he was doing at work, hour by hour. What difference did it make to the investigation at that point?

 

[JudyBolton]

I agree. But I didn't say anything about the face. AR report has diagram of the abrasions on Cooper. My point was, ME didn't know about the various CPR attempts. And the friction of his skin/head against the hot parking lot asphalt could very well have caused this. That was the Def questioning of Dr Frist. Who testified yes it is possible. Also the DA tried to make the jury believe that RH did not attempt CPR when there are at least 3 witnesses stating differently from the beginning. Hawkins had left the scene (that did CPR) but Anthony P and Eastland were on scene. Stoddard even incorrectly stated that Anthony is who did the CPR. IIRC one of the SW said that RH didn't attempt CPR. State has tried over and over to present this as a fact when their own witnesses refute this. http://media.wix.com/ugd/943520_7cd46570b4a9474b9e36c87173e7a14d.pdf

View attachment 103821

View attachment 103822

OK - I see that. I firmly believe everyone should learn CPR. You never know when you may be in a situation to save a life. The same with the Heimlich maneuver - This is especially true of parents. It's a simple course, often offered free or a very minimal charge by the Red Cross.

 

[TexMex]

You've decided there is no reasonable doubt (minors aside) before the defense has presented it's case?

So far. I'm definitely listening. My opinion based on pros case only
I think the defense will struggle to overcome the jury view of the car though

 

[arkansasmimi]

We can agree to disagree. Stoddard asked Ross about his day. Ross starts telling Stoddard about his day. I am paraphrasing Ross here: I arrived at work around 9:30. I got straight to work. I had a 10:00 meeting so I went to that. Ross gave lots of details and specifics about his day. He did not tell about his texting habits. That is hiding information via omission. JMO

You are correct though. Detective Stoddard never asked Ross if he was texting or sexting while Cooper baked to death. He simply asked Ross to tell him about his day. IMO it's a pretty big omission to not talk about the activity that consumed most of his day.

If his texting simply meant that he was a bad husband, why shy away (aka hide) from the discussion of his online habits? I think it's fairly clear that his texting habits had criminal implications from the outset. It's clear to me now, and it was clear to Ross then.

:blushing: I always agree to disagree. Just what I have seen from the trial. RH couldn't remember if he took Cooper to school the 2 days prior when asked. JMHO all that was said to Stoddard has to be taken in context of time from when got to Akers Mill and all that happened up to RH invoking at 7:31pm then the video of RH & LH. And as far as the on the sly recording as Raisse called iirc, RH had had some time to think between his visit with LH and that time which iirc was 10pm. I am suspicious as to why that was not recorded as the others was. Stoddard could have turned it on or any other LEO per Murphy testimony.

I have to wait to see what the Def is going to do and say to form any more thoughts JMHO

 

[arkansasmimi]

I was out for half of Thursday and all day Friday and missed all testimony. Thursday morning I watched witness David Dustan but not cross from the Defense. There is no way I want to watched all the videos. Can somebody tell me the what I missed that was significant or interesting that I need to go back and watch?

TIA :tyou:

Ahh, I encourage you to watch Friday for sure. It not that long. More arguing between the State & Def on Motions and what Murphy can and cant testify to. Please do watch. Oh and one last sexting hook up. She sexted him on the 18th. She confirmed it was just about sexting &hooking up not relationship for RH

 

[Hope4More]

Ross's sexual activities aren't simply a moral judgment in this case. It's what Ross was doing leading up to and during the death of Cooper. With respect to counts 6-8, it IS the crime.

I was responding directly to a specific list in a specific post by Pocket, and about her reasons for believing RH guilty versus mine for not being persuaded.

I was not addressing the minor charges at all, and was not speaking generally- nor, as far as I could see, was Pocket.

But to reply to the relevance of RH texting or sexting after he left Cooper in the car-IMO- completely irrelevant to any of the core charges.

And, imo, his texting the night before (is that what you were referring to?) may or may not be relevant to 2nd degree CC charges, completely a call for the jury to decide, as they wrestle over (i hope) whether they find FBS credible or applicable, or if they believe sleep deprivation contributed to what they may or may not believe was criminal negligence.

The CFA texting is, imo, wide open to interpretation, both as to significance relating to charges, and as to content. Jmo

 

[JudyBolton]

I can't find the first post about JRH "hiding" things. So this may not apply to the conversation...but he did have his sexting apps "hidden" in a weather folder on his phone.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I like to go back and look at the things going on in background during testimony (what the attorneys are doing) I find it interesting during the last witnesses of Evans multiple glances to the jury during Ludwig Cross.

Also the days of testimony of when Stoddard was in court listening to testimony. Can you image being Det Murphy Friday? I didn't realize while watching orig that Stoddard was there, was taking notes and listening. But Stoddard kept his head turned to the Def as Evans was speaking. Darn wish knew what was going on at that point at the Def table.

Just 1 ss

 

[arkansasmimi]

I can't find the first post about JRH "hiding" things. So this may not apply to the conversation...but he did have his sexting apps "hidden" in a weather folder on his phone.

Yes RH hid the Whisper app in the weather folder. but as far as Hidden... I asked what had RH Hid from the CCPD. He didn't delete anything, or mislead as far as I can see the State prove. *well he did say 5 years instead of 3 as his length of employment as a dispatcher

 

[Hope4More]

So far. I'm definitely listening. My opinion based on pros case only
I think the defense will struggle to overcome the jury view of the car though

As they should, imo. I've been consistent in my belief that the obvious gigantic hurdle the DT will have to clear is how it was possible for RH to "forget"' Cooper and to keep on forgetting him, for lack of a more scientific or whatever term.

As I've said before, I can easily imagine a jury rendering verdicts based solely on that single question, and EVERYTHING else made irrelevant, including LE stuff, sexting stuff, and lack of evidence for intent stuff.

IMO, if a jury doesn't believe RH had FBS, they'll convict on malice murder or one of the CC charges, or both, or all three, imo, depending on whether they think it was even possible for RH to plain vanilla forget and to never remember, or if, believing forgetting was possible, they find it unforgivable and go with criminal negligence and felony murder.

Utter speculation, obviously.