GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #2

[Yashim]

Do you believe that knowing about a culture gives you an advantage in analyzing facts and putting pieces (back) together?

Well, I do.

I don't know if any other local will back me up. Or any one of you. I think culture is a strong determinant of the distribution of the type of crimes. And the type of local actors. A homemaker in the US may mean the same thing in Turkey. Yet there isn't one-to-one lap with criminal characters.

For example, when we say a druggie we never mean a talented jazz musician who has fallen prey to the curse of chemical dependency, we mean an abandoned teen who is inhaling shoe glue.

I believe the COD (i.e. TBI) alone suggests that the perp was someone she didn't know. Someone she just met that day. And even though the blows look violent and sadistic, to me it suggests that the crime was committed by someone heavily intoxicated or someone relatively weak.

I am really surprised at how easily local/cultural factors are being dismissed in this case.

And not knowing about the local culture is causing us (I mean you) to overthink this case. Why would mafia or a gang would try to frame a druggie instead of getting rid of any evidence (including the body)? YAUA

 

[bellyup]

http://haber.gazetevatan.com/iste-adim-adim-olume-yolculuk/512700/1/Manset

Dealing with google translate on this one. The last paragraph.
"Sierra disappeared from the date of the last person interviewed Taylan K. known as. However, by then Tarkan K. turned out to be. But in a statement yesterday that the lawyer told his client Taylan. Ozkan Attorney Parker, the need to make a statement in accordance with the news about his client that he said: "My client has a friendship with Sierra. Together on the bar is true, but as mentioned there is no emotional convergences. I just drank coffee. Taylan received a good education from a good family, had master's degree abroad, and a citizen who lived abroad for a while. Press was a thinner addicts. 3-4 months before the review is based on a web site made photographs of each other's acquaintance begins. Avoid the killer or killers to the press as soon as possible to know for sure that ispatlanacağından yakalanacağından and he is not guilty. "

I'm not sure how things work in Turkey, but it keeps being mentioned that Tarkan is from a "good family", a "good background". Here (in the US), when it comes to committing crimes, that means little. Lots of people from good families, good back grounds do bad things. What I'm asking is .... could Tarkan be getting a "pass" or even do other things to influence the Turkish LE away from him being a suspect? Influence? Money?

Ironically, I don't feel like he is a suspect, but it keeps coming up. Is his family prominent in Istanbul ?

I guess I'm also asking about the Turkish LE reputation ? Are they on the up and up ? Or are they easily bribed like some foreign LE's (ie; Mexico).

 

[ToutCa]

Reading his and his lawyer's statements, I didn't interpret it as he did his best. But if he did, my theory does not hold.

So, by your logic, the only way we can know if Taylan and SS had sex is if Taylan hired a private army to scour the city for the woman who had just stood him up and wouldn't answer his calls/messages?

Frankly, most player guys would just move on to the next 10 numbers in their black book and not give it a second thought.

 

[Yashim]

Tarkan sure is cute.I love my bf a LOT but I think if a guy that cute came onto me while I was a million miles away from home,it would be VERY hard to refuse,lol. In fact, most of those Turkish guys look hot.I can't imagine being a woman living in Turkey surrounded by hot looking guys everyday!
That would be torture!

I used to think that we looked more like bacterial cultures grown in petri dishes. My self confidence is restored now.

Thanks a lot.

 

[ToutCa]

Do you believe that knowing about a culture gives you an advantage in analyzing facts and putting pieces (back) together?

Well, I do.

Clearly, you do, because you assert and re-assert your own positions (often wild theories with no evidence) and discount others.

Many here have skills and information they can add -- knowledge of local culture is a great help at times but at times can be a great hindrance if it leads to arrogance and dismissiveness of others' ideas.

You are invaluable to have on this board. But you would be well served to listen to what others have to say and to try to counter their points with logical argument as well.

 

[ThinkHard]

Ok- so there was a media report last night that said LE thinks SS went to a bar with a dude on the day she went missing, went back to his place, had an argument after he made some kind of unacceptable proposal, and was murdered there.

Taylan claims he had sex with SS in the bathroom of a bar.

Are they talking about the same incident, perhaps? I know TK's "encounter" was supposed to have occured the night before SS vanished, but what if it didn't? What if it happened the day she vanished instead?

The only way for this to make sense, based on the fact that she was supposedly last seen on the cankurtan camera crossing the street and at no point after, is if she went the back way through gulhane park to cankurtan.

Otherwise I don't see how these two stories jibe.

Law enforcement claimed they found her body because of where she disappeared from camera right?

So she would have had to avoid all cameras to get to the bar, the house ... Which is possible I would think

It's just in some ways this confuses me

 

[ToutCa]

Ok- so there was a media report last night that said LE thinks SS went to a bar with a dude on the day she went missing, went back to his place, had an argument after he made some kind of unacceptable proposal, and was murdered there.

Are they talking about the same incident, perhaps?

No, this is a new theory that has nothing to do with Taylan.

The idea would be the guy then put her body in the cave-structure afterward.

It's been floated, but I have no idea if there's any evidence for it.

 

[CMac2]

Do you believe that knowing about a culture gives you an advantage in analyzing facts and putting pieces (back) together?

Well, I do.

I don't know if any other local will back me up. Or any one of you. I think culture is a strong determinant of the distribution of the type of crimes. And the type of local actors. A homemaker in the US may mean the same thing in Turkey. Yet there isn't one-to-one lap with criminal characters.

For example, when we say a druggie we never mean a talented jazz musician who has fallen prey to the curse of chemical dependency, we mean an abandoned teen who is inhaling shoe glue.

I believe the COD (i.e. TBI) alone suggests that the perp was someone she didn't know. Someone she just met that day. And even though the blows look violent and sadistic, to me it suggests that the crime was committed by someone heavily intoxicated or someone relatively weak.

I am really surprised at how easily local/cultural factors are being dismissed in this case.

And not knowing about the local culture is causing us (I mean you) to overthink this case. Why would mafia or a gang would try to frame a druggie instead of getting rid of any evidence (including the body)? YAUA

I think your input has been invaluable (and I know I'm not alone in feeling that way). I love how we have so many people on this thread who are native to Turkey, but are able to look at the facts and analyze the case with honesty while helping us understand the overall culture, what tends fall more on the side of the "norm" in Turkey vs. US. Not just on the translations of the articles either- though that's been awesome too. Just in general, because most of us over here in the states have no idea. Even some of us who have traveled to the area have only experienced the country as tourists- clearly not the same thing as being native to the area.

How often do you estimate a random crime like this one occurs, when it is a druggie (your definition of druggie- teen glue-sniffer) that is the perpetrator? Is this the method (blunt object repeatedly to the back of the head) these druggies prefer?

Random attacks obviously happen in the US all the time, but generally, while violent in their own way, we wouldn't necessarily see the victim's face bashed in to the point of being almost unrecognizable. That, to many of us, is a clear indicator that this is personal. In a random attack in an urban area here in the US we're most likely to see cause of death being a gunshot wound, given the availability of illegal guns on the black market. Apparently in some areas of our nation it's easier to get a handgun with the serial number sawed off than it is to find some asprin to cure a headache.

All that said, however, it doesn't really matter what the typical M.O. would be here in the states. If the typical random crime in Turkey looks a lot like what we're seeing here with SS, that's much more important, since Turkey is clearly where the crime was committed.

 

[Yashim]

http://haber.gazetevatan.com/iste-adim-adim-olume-yolculuk/512700/1/Manset

Dealing with google translate on this one. The last paragraph.
"Sierra disappeared from the date of the last person interviewed Taylan K. known as. However, by then Tarkan K. turned out to be

...

I guess I'm also asking about the Turkish LE reputation ? Are they on the up and up ? Or are they easily bribed like some foreign LE's (ie; Mexico).

Google is not great with Turkish suffixes.

Anyway, it says

"Pasaportunu neden odasında bıraktı?"

Meaning "Why did she leave her passport in her room?"

Sorry to bring this up again, but I thought this was weird too, considering Tarlabasi is such a "security-challenged" place. I studied in the US and in the UK for several years, never once carried my passport with me. But when I was a Tourist, my Turkish common sense required me to have it on me. I guess when don't have our department of state to bail us out. .)

But she wasn't an experienced tourist. Not everything she did has to make sense.

 

[ThinkHard]

Personally, I don't judge her at all -- don't know her well enough to know what was going on. Maybe she was virtually divorced and for all intents and purposes single.

Regardless, her willingness to take multiple risks with multiple foreign guys may be relevant here. We don't know what risks she took on the 21st...we still don't know if she went to meet someone for a romantic liaison, if she went to the walls for something nefarious, or was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Anyway, I know what you mean, and I respect SS as a human being, but we don't know yet whether a willingness to pursue a romantic encounter had anything to do with her death or not. So it's hard to just stop talking about her private life.

I didn't mean stop talking about her private life, I agree with you we do have to look at different aspects because it may be tied into her death. Absolutely agree.

I was just more referencing some poster yesterday saying her husband didn't deserve to have her cheat on him and stuff like that.

I think it's one think to analyze things because they might be significant to her murder. But I think it's unfair analyze those same point to judge her.

Don't worry I don't think you have done that at all. I have just seem some posts that at least I felt did. So I just wanted to put that out there.

 

[CMac2]

No, this is a new theory that has nothing to do with Taylan.

The idea would be the guy then put her body in the cave-structure afterward.

It's been floated, but I have no idea if there's any evidence for it.

I knew it was being reported as a new theory, completely separated from Taylan. I was coming up with a new sub-theory to piggy back off of our new theory (ha ha- I'll drive myself crazy with all this). It was more an idea I had... like what if it wasn't two separate stories? What if it was really the same? Taylan could have told officials the encounter in the bathroom happened the night before she vanished, when really it was the DAY she vanished. If her body's been laying in the elements for 10 days, there's no way LE would have been able to tell the difference between a sexual encounter the night before she vanished vs. a sexual encounter the same day she vanished. Not after all that time, anyway.

Mostly, I still fine Taylan shady as hell and am not ready to let him off the hook just yet. What can I say? I'm a woman. We don't let things go very easily.

 

[ToutCa]

Law enforcement claimed they found her body because of where she disappeared from camera right?

So she would have had to avoid all cameras to get to the bar, the house ... Which is possible I would think

It's just in some ways this confuses me

Me too. I'm not sure if they're saying she was going round the back way to someone's place, if she met someone at the wall who took her away by car, or if she was abducted by car...

Can anyone clarify this theory??

 

[CMac2]

Me too. I'm not sure if they're saying she was going round the back way to someone's place, if she met someone at the wall who took her away by car, or if she was abducted by car...

Can anyone clarify this theory??

Clarify?! LOL. I think we struggle to clarify anything at this point. If SS' husband hadn't personally identified her, I wouldn't even be convinced it was her body they found to begin with. This has been NUTS.

 

[ThinkHard]

Do you believe that knowing about a culture gives you an advantage in analyzing facts and putting pieces (back) together?

Well, I do.

I don't know if any other local will back me up. Or any one of you. I think culture is a strong determinant of the distribution of the type of crimes. And the type of local actors. A homemaker in the US may mean the same thing in Turkey. Yet there isn't one-to-one lap with criminal characters.

For example, when we say a druggie we never mean a talented jazz musician who has fallen prey to the curse of chemical dependency, we mean an abandoned teen who is inhaling shoe glue.

I believe the COD (i.e. TBI) alone suggests that the perp was someone she didn't know. Someone she just met that day. And even though the blows look violent and sadistic, to me it suggests that the crime was committed by someone heavily intoxicated or someone relatively weak.

I am really surprised at how easily local/cultural factors are being dismissed in this case.

And not knowing about the local culture is causing us (I mean you) to overthink this case. Why would mafia or a gang would try to frame a druggie instead of getting rid of any evidence (including the body)? YAUA

I understand what you are saying. But I don't see how some one so intoxicated would also be coherent enough to also hide the body.

I don't see a druggie interested in electronics leaving her jewelry, but taking her coat.

I don't see a teen druggie removing her pants, or being strong enough to get her body in a hole with that small of a diameter.

And if you suggest that someone killed her, then someone else and stole her things, then someone else hid her...that would make even less sense to me. Because those aren't things that make sense to do when you come across a dead body you had nothing to do with. Afterglow isn't there some Turkish morality that believes if you steal something, or cheat somebody out of something, then that money is cursed?

 

[ToutCa]

"Why did she leave her passport in her room?"

Sorry to bring this up again

Why ask this question AGAIN?

We've been over this and over this.

The US Department of State advises all American tourists in Turkey to leave their passports in their rooms due to pickpocketers. US passports go for a lot of money on the black market.

When I travel -- and not just in Turkey -- I almost always lock my passport in the hotel safe. I only carry it with me if I have no other choice.

There is nothing at all mysterious in SS not carrying her passport. Period.

This has been covered several times already on this thread!

 

[tresptip]

Do you believe that knowing about a culture gives you an advantage in analyzing facts and putting pieces (back) together?

Well, I do.

I don't know if any other local will back me up. Or any one of you. I think culture is a strong determinant of the distribution of the type of crimes. And the type of local actors. A homemaker in the US may mean the same thing in Turkey. Yet there isn't one-to-one lap with criminal characters.

For example, when we say a druggie we never mean a talented jazz musician who has fallen prey to the curse of chemical dependency, we mean an abandoned teen who is inhaling shoe glue.

I believe the COD (i.e. TBI) alone suggests that the perp was someone she didn't know. Someone she just met that day. And even though the blows look violent and sadistic, to me it suggests that the crime was committed by someone heavily intoxicated or someone relatively weak.

I am really surprised at how easily local/cultural factors are being dismissed in this case.

And not knowing about the local culture is causing us (I mean you) to overthink this case. Why would mafia or a gang would try to frame a druggie instead of getting rid of any evidence (including the body)? YAUA

Well, I think your input is valuable, as well as everyones opinion as it just makes you think more and reevaluate possibilities.
What do you think would have been a sign of a "strong" mans way of having commited that crime?

 

[ThinkHard]

http://haber.gazetevatan.com/iste-adim-adim-olume-yolculuk/512700/1/Manset

Dealing with google translate on this one. The last paragraph.
"Sierra disappeared from the date of the last person interviewed Taylan K. known as. However, by then Tarkan K. turned out to be. But in a statement yesterday that the lawyer told his client Taylan. Ozkan Attorney Parker, the need to make a statement in accordance with the news about his client that he said: "My client has a friendship with Sierra. Together on the bar is true, but as mentioned there is no emotional convergences. I just drank coffee. Taylan received a good education from a good family, had master's degree abroad, and a citizen who lived abroad for a while. Press was a thinner addicts. 3-4 months before the review is based on a web site made photographs of each other's acquaintance begins. Avoid the killer or killers to the press as soon as possible to know for sure that ispatlanacağından yakalanacağından and he is not guilty. "

I'm not sure how things work in Turkey, but it keeps being mentioned that Tarkan is from a "good family", a "good background". Here (in the US), when it comes to committing crimes, that means little. Lots of people from good families, good back grounds do bad things. What I'm asking is .... could Tarkan be getting a "pass" or even do other things to influence the Turkish LE away from him being a suspect? Influence? Money?

Ironically, I don't feel like he is a suspect, but it keeps coming up. Is his family prominent in Istanbul ?

I guess I'm also asking about the Turkish LE reputation ? Are they on the up and up ? Or are they easily bribed like some foreign LE's (ie; Mexico).

Here's my best guess. I don't think he s involved but I think his family is wealthy, and I'm pretty sure when they say good family in turkey, that means pretty wealthy, old wealthy, and some ties to a business, good private schooling etc. and I do think these things are protecting him from being exposed in the media, and having the cops treat him from kid gloves. However I don't think if something damning like DNA tied him to this crime, his money would matter.

Cops can be bribed in Istanbul (of course half of them are like 18 and baby faced) but I don't think it would get Taylan out of a murder if they had the evidence to prove it was him.

 

[Yashim]

Well, I think your input is valuable, as well as everyones opinion as it just makes you think more and reevaluate possibilities.
What do you think would have been a sign of a "strong" mans way of having commited that crime?

Less violent and quicker way. The longer it takes, the messier it gets, higher will be his chance of getting caught.

 

[CMac2]

The only way for this to make sense, based on the fact that she was supposedly last seen on the cankurtan camera crossing the street and at no point after, is if she went the back way through gulhane park to cankurtan.

Otherwise I don't see how these two stories jibe.

Law enforcement claimed they found her body because of where she disappeared from camera right?

So she would have had to avoid all cameras to get to the bar, the house ... Which is possible I would think

It's just in some ways this confuses me

See, in my mind, I have no problem with the idea that she met up with someone near the Cankurtan camera area, and left with him by taking the "back way". Granted, I have never been to that area specifically, so I can only theorize based on the pictures I've seen, and the speculation of others that it is possible to leave the area without being seen by camera.

If she met someone there around 1:15-ish, and then hopped into a car, riding straight to their destination, unless LE knows what car they're looking for, she could have gotten anywhere without their knowledge simply because they don't know what they're looking for yet.

Definitely not saying I'm right here- or even that I'm making any sense to anyone other than myself- but to me, it's possible.

 

[Yashim]

I understand what you are saying. But I don't see how some one so intoxicated would also be coherent enough to also hide the body.

I don't see a druggie interested in electronics leaving her jewelry, but taking her coat.

I don't see a teen druggie removing her pants, or being strong enough to get her body in a hole with that small of a diameter.

And if you suggest that someone killed her, then someone else and stole her things, then someone else hid her...that would make even less sense to me. Because those aren't things that make sense to do when you come across a dead body you had nothing to do with. Afterglow isn't there some Turkish morality that believes if you steal something, or cheat somebody out of something, then that money is cursed?

Those people who had to live there believe that they are already cursed.