GUILTY TX - Alanna Gallagher, 6, Saginaw, 1 July 2013 - #13

[Philigumbo]

I loved the article in the link. That gives us hope.
I want to know what causes people to snap and become violent criminals. Whether nature, nurture, brain damage, or in their genetic DNA code or just born that way (psychopath). I think we need to study it and try to prevent future criminals.

Me too. I want to know the snapping point, the "what were they thinking" part. We've got to get to the bottom of this, with everyone, but I worry about teens. Their very nature of being around groups of people (school, sports, hanging out) enables many to "take others with them" when they go off the deep end. All these public shootings, murders by teens and children, all of it...what are the triggers that lead up to it, why couldn't they contain the urge, what signs were missed...I could go on and on. I do wonder if this was TH's cry for help, for attention....and then suicide attempt by cop. What better way to become notorious and "remembered" as seen through a broken mind? As we have learned, sometimes bad attention is considered by some to be better than no attention. Where is the value of life instilled and by who? Or not??? :banghead:

 

[Midwestmama78]

Jack the Ripper sent several letters taunting the police. He was dangling the truth (his identity) right in front of the, but they never solved it!

JTR is an absolutely fascinating case (I'm probably morbid), all the moreso because it was never solved, at least not officially. The vast majority of the letters and postcards written to the police in that case were eventually dismissed as hoaxes, except for the letter that is headed "from Hell" and maybe one other. Still, very very interesting. People have theorized and conjectured on that one since 1888.

:websleuther:

 

[Midwestmama78]

I think Holder might have set the fire because he thought LE had moved on from him. They weren't parked on the street, so he probably thought they weren't watching him. Maybe he also thought that since it had been weeks since they had came to his house, he was cleared? He's not the smartest person. I don't mean that he wanted to get caught, but maybe some frustration because he thought they weren't looking into him anymore? IDK.

bbm

Very interesting theory. As I said earlier, a certain kind of criminal wants the attention of an investigation, not necessarily to be caught but to feel "in the spotlight" nonetheless. If TH set the fires, it could very well have been to refocus LE's attention. IMO, of course.

 

[Philigumbo]

JTR is an absolutely fascinating case (I'm probably morbid), all the moreso because it was never solved, at least not officially. The vast majority of the letters and postcards written to the police in that case were eventually dismissed as hoaxes, except for the letter that is headed "from Hell" and maybe one other. Still, very very interesting. People have theorized and conjectured on that one since 1888.

:websleuther:

I've studied that case too. I've studied a lot of them. If my computer ever gets raided, LE will certainly wonder what's going on in my life!! LOL!! lease:But the forensics and psychology of murder has always fascinated me. My son gave me a book for Christmas one year: "the A to Z encyclopedia of Serial Killers." My family thought it was morbid..I was thrilled! ....Being a nurse in this life but coming back as a criminal psychologist...or pathologist... LOL

 

[Midwestmama78]

I've studied that case too. I've studied a lot of them. If my computer ever gets raided, LE will certainly wonder what's going on in my life!! LOL!! lease:But the forensics and psychology of murder has always fascinated me. My son gave me a book for Christmas one year: "the A to Z encyclopedia of Serial Killers." My family thought it was morbid..I was thrilled! ....Being a nurse in this life but coming back as a criminal psychologist...or pathologist... LOL

Haha philigumbo, I totally get it. I read Helter Skelter in high school and have been hooked on true crime ever since. Not the murders themselves necessarily, but the pathology of the killer, especially if there is a mystery aspect to the case. Although if I immerse myself in the subject for too long it tends to darken my outlook and I have to pull back for awhile.

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

I have a billion questions to statements made like Alanna being in a tree and wouldn't let a stranger neighbor help her down. Who was it? Just all kinds of questions on little things like that in the news.

That tire incident still makes no sense. I have thoughts though. Just felt like slashing tires that night and showing up at their door is odd? Somethings just aren't sitting right but hopefully, something will move along soon to explain it.

eta, if he's not formally charged & three months would be a miracle per Ing, I don't think we will hear anything but rumor & no MSM/LE statements until he is formally charged. Gitana will show up and answer this soon, I hope!

The tire-slashing incident gave me an idea...maybe TH wasn't content to just know that it would cause discomfort and inconvenience when they discovered the slashed tires; he had to be an eyewitness to their negative reaction. Maybe he got impatient waiting for them to discover it, maybe he was afraid that he'd miss seeing it for some reason. Kind of like a voyeur or a criminal version of a prankster. Maybe it was so important to him to see the reaction that he'd rather get caught than miss it or wait for it. It also lets him be in control of or at least an active participant in the situation from beginning to end, in a way.

And now think about where Allana was found. (Think of him pacing up and down the sidewalk - anxiety? Impatience? What?)

And the cell phone pics.

And all the other evidence that we wonder, "Why wouldn't you just throw it away for Pete's sake?!"

Just some thoughts. It fits with what Marnie and Eileenhawkeye have said above, and others I'm sure too. I think it might be worth looking at everything we might consider "accidental," "lazy," or "careless" from the same angle. Jmo.

 

[skibaboo]

I think Holder might have set the fire because he thought LE had moved on from him. They weren't parked on the street, so he probably thought they weren't watching him. Maybe he also thought that since it had been weeks since they had came to his house, he was cleared? He's not the smartest person. I don't mean that he wanted to get caught, but maybe some frustration because he thought they weren't looking into him anymore? IDK.

I can totally feel that, can even imagine the scenario. TH is trudging his way home from meeting a bum chum... sorry friend, sees the memorial against the stop sign, kicks over a candle/bends down and lights a teddy with his lighter and gets an idea. Fills a bottle with some type of accelerant, lights it and places it against the G's garage door, as it burns it rolls under the car.

 

[Midwestmama78]

The tire-slashing incident gave me an idea...maybe TH wasn't content to just know that it would cause discomfort and inconvenience when they discovered the slashed tires; he had to be an eyewitness to their negative reaction. Maybe he got impatient waiting for them to discover it, maybe he was afraid that he'd miss seeing it for some reason. Kind of like a voyeur or a criminal version of a prankster. Maybe it was so important to him to see the reaction that he'd rather get caught than miss it or wait for it. It also lets him be in control of or at least an active participant in the situation from beginning to end, in a way.

And now think about where Allana was found. (Think of him pacing up and down the sidewalk - anxiety? Impatience? What?)

And the cell phone pics.

And all the other evidence that we wonder, "Why wouldn't you just throw it away for Pete's sake?!"

Just some thoughts.

bbm

The control thing pops up a lot with TH, doesn't it? Both him wanting to be on-site and thereby control the discovery of his deeds, and his lack of self-control in giving too much away and thereby implicating himself. Not sure if that indicates a sub-par intelligence on his part, or immaturity, or what.

 

[Philigumbo]

Haha philigumbo, I totally get it. I read Helter Skelter in high school and have been hooked on true crime ever since. Not the murders themselves necessarily, but the pathology of the killer, especially if there is a mystery aspect to the case. Although if I immerse myself in the subject for too long it tends to darken my outlook and I have to pull back for awhile.

Mama! The Ft. Worth Missing Trio and Helter Skelter were my start. I have followed many cases for years. In my area, DFW, Texas, unfortunately, we have many. The trio went missing when I was in high school. Very odd case....

 

[Teche]

Me too. I want to know the snapping point, the "what were they thinking" part. We've got to get to the bottom of this, with everyone, but I worry about teens. Their very nature of being around groups of people (school, sports, hanging out) enables many to "take others with them" when they go off the deep end. All these public shootings, murders by teens and children, all of it...what are the triggers that lead up to it, why couldn't they contain the urge, what signs were missed...I could go on and on. I do wonder if this was TH's cry for help, for attention....and then suicide attempt by cop. What better way to become notorious and "remembered" as seen through a broken mind? As we have learned, sometimes bad attention is considered by some to be better than no attention. Where is the value of life instilled and by who? Or not??? :banghead:

OT
Philigumbo, your name caught my eye. Wondering if you spent some time in my neck of the swamps of south Louisiana? Interesting name.

 

[Philigumbo]

The tire-slashing incident gave me an idea...maybe TH wasn't content to just know that it would cause discomfort and inconvenience when they discovered the slashed tires; he had to be an eyewitness to their negative reaction. Maybe he got impatient waiting for them to discover it, maybe he was afraid that he'd miss seeing it for some reason. Kind of like a voyeur or a criminal version of a prankster. Maybe it was so important to him to see the reaction that he'd rather get caught than miss it or wait for it. It also lets him be in control of or at least an active participant in the situation from beginning to end, in a way.

And now think about where Allana was found. (Think of him pacing up and down the sidewalk - anxiety? Impatience? What?)

And the cell phone pics.

And all the other evidence that we wonder, "Why wouldn't you just throw it away for Pete's sake?!"

Just some thoughts. It fits with what Marnie and Eileenhawkeye have said above, and others I'm sure too. I think it might be worth looking at everything we might consider "accidental," "lazy," or "careless" from the same angle. Jmo.

Great insight! I think so too! And the fires, if he caused them. Was he the neighbor who noticed and called the alert? Do we know?

 

[Midwestmama78]

Great insight! I think so too! And the fires, if he caused them. Was he the neighbor who noticed and called the alert? Do we know?

bbm

I believe the fires were reported by a different neighbor, or so I remember from waaaaaayyyyyy back in the thread.

 

[Philigumbo]

OT
Philigumbo, your name caught my eye. Wondering if you spent some time in my neck of the swamps of south Louisiana? Interesting name.

Texas transplantee from Pensacola, Florida. Spent a lot of time in your neck of the woods. Love me some jazz, Mardi Gras and fishing! My name is a combo from a nickname and a favorite food! :dance:

 

[ctkid]

bbm

I believe the fires were reported by a different neighbor, or so I remember from waaaaaayyyyyy back in the thread.

I believe you are correct. We had thought for a bit that maybe TH reported them and then maybe LE had a stakeout, neither of those came to attrition.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Beginners luck, from your experience, what types of behaviors in juveniles have you seen that could escalate to TH's level of crime? Such as, we've seen animal cruelty a previous behavior in many serial killers history. Is it all just a cluster of behaviors and situations that build on each other? Also, in your career, why have juveniles committed crimes and acted as TH did (inserting self at crime scene, leaving poor Alanna on the street in daylight, etc.) - is that a cry for help? A need to just get the satisfaction of seeing everyone's horror? To get back at his mother?? I guess I just don't understand the psychology. Do you, generally, of course, have an opinion of what went wrong here? TIA. :banghead:

I mainly handled low level first time offenders. There were many cases of juveniles that started with petty theft and their crimes would escalate over the years until they ended up in the adult system. Most were involved in some sort of gang activity. It is rare to see someone with this level of "psychopathy". (Just a term I picked, call it what you want) There was one 12 year old that murdered a man in cold blood. The man did a lot to help youth in the community. There was never a clear motive for his actions. He came from a family with a long criminal history. He was just released from prison and he is 23 now. At twelve he would throw and smear his bodily fluids in his cell and at guards. I hope he doesn't murder again, but it's hard to consider he will be a productive citizen if his family are all criminals.

In my "personal" opinion, I believe that there are some that are born with dysfunction in the brain that predisposes them to commit violent acts of this nature. Because of this predisposition, when other environmental factors (can be a combination of many different variables) are added it increases the odds of humans committing these horrific acts.

BBM - You mentioned a cry for help. IMO any child displaying negative behavior for attention is crying out for help. It's much easier to ignore a child, look the other way and let the child run the streets than it is to work with the child and reinforce positive behavior. All children need nurturing and positive role models. A child with special needs requires more care.

Did TH fall through the cracks as far as having any type of support system or intervention in his life before it escalated to this level?

 

[human]

I love these discussions on what issues are with TH.

In the Somer Thompson case in Florida, there was no trial so a lot of info did not come out.

He hid everything, so a totally different type of criminal.

James Fallon, who many of you have heard of, is a neuro scientist. He discovered he has a psychpath's brain.

Here is his take on things if you have not heard it before

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976

 

[carole]

bbm

I believe the fires were reported by a different neighbor, or so I remember from waaaaaayyyyyy back in the thread.

I believe it was a neighbor across the street from the Gallagher's house.

 

[Philigumbo]

I mainly handled low level first time offenders. There were many cases of juveniles that started with petty theft and their crimes would escalate over the years until they ended up in the adult system. Most were involved in some sort of gang activity. It is rare to see someone with this level of "psychopathy". (Just a term I picked, call it what you want) There was one 12 year old that murdered a man in cold blood. The man did a lot to help youth in the community. There was never a clear motive for his actions. He came from a family with a long criminal history. He was just released from prison and he is 23 now. At twelve he would throw and smear his bodily fluids in his cell and at guards. I hope he doesn't murder again, but it's hard to consider he will be a productive citizen if his family are all criminals.

In my "personal" opinion, I believe that there are some that are born with dysfunction in the brain that predisposes them to commit violent acts of this nature. Because of this predisposition, when other environmental factors (can be a combination of many different variables) are added it increases the odds of humans committing these horrific acts.

BBM - You mentioned a cry for help. IMO any child displaying negative behavior for attention is crying out for help. It's much easier to ignore a child, look the other way and let the child run the streets than it is to work with the child and reinforce positive behavior. All children need nurturing and positive role models. A child with special needs requires more care.

Did TH fall through the cracks as far as having any type of support system or intervention in his life before it escalated to this level?

BBM
Thank you, BeginnersLuck, for your response! I think in this case there are probably many variables at work. We won't know for sure until more is revealed if TH fell through the cracks, but I'm thinking so at this point. I feel sad that his grandparents lived less than 30 minutes away yet said they hadn't seen him since he was a young child until the news broadcast. My parents were almost always a good backdrop during some issues with my kids. As a young single mom (WAY in the past), I remember choosing which battles to fight and it would have been easier to over look the big ones, but you just can't!!! It would have been easier to turn a blind eye...but you just can't. My 2 sons were over 6'3" in high school compared to my 5'4" but I kept them in line (my nickname by them was Tasmanian Devil), tried my best to raise them with good values, and they've neither one ever been accused or suspected of injury to another or property. Proud Navy Mom and Proud Mom of a successful businessman! Whew! It was a long haul but got there!!!

 

[SilkySifaka]

I love these discussions on what issues are with TH.

In the Somer Thompson case in Florida, there was no trial so a lot of info did not come out.

He hid everything, so a totally different type of criminal.

James Fallon, who many of you have heard of, is a neuro scientist. He discovered he has a psychpath's brain.

Here is his take on things if you have not heard it before

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976

I completely agree with him. There is a hardwire problem that predisposes but it needs a trauma or abuse to tip over. It also answers the age old question of why some make it out of an abusive background or one with at the least emotional abuse and the minority don't.

 

[Midwestmama78]

I love these discussions on what issues are with TH.

In the Somer Thompson case in Florida, there was no trial so a lot of info did not come out.

He hid everything, so a totally different type of criminal.

James Fallon, who many of you have heard of, is a neuro scientist. He discovered he has a psychpath's brain.

Here is his take on things if you have not heard it before

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127888976

Very interesting. Certainly inborn brain structure and function is one possible component to certain types of criminality. I appreciate how Fallon has changed his mind re: genetic drivers not being the only determinant for criminal behavior.